Outcome of WIWAG Sentencing
dude
Posts: 1,454 ✭✭
I just got off the phone with Assistant U. S. Attorney Melanie K. Pierson. Here is what I found out.
The hearing for sentencing was held on September 22nd in San Diego. Defendants John Slight and Craig Kreider of When It Was A Game, Inc. pled guilty to mail fraud and both were given probation. Kreider and Slight were fined $3,000 each and the corporation of When It Was A Game, Inc. also was fined $6,000.
Also, they are still legally obligated to make full restitution for any fraudulent cards that still exist. They are obligated to give full restitution through 2005.
The hearing for sentencing was held on September 22nd in San Diego. Defendants John Slight and Craig Kreider of When It Was A Game, Inc. pled guilty to mail fraud and both were given probation. Kreider and Slight were fined $3,000 each and the corporation of When It Was A Game, Inc. also was fined $6,000.
Also, they are still legally obligated to make full restitution for any fraudulent cards that still exist. They are obligated to give full restitution through 2005.
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Comments
Perhaps the DA is going to post their addresses and phone numbers on this board so that the real punishment can begin
So much for crime doesn't pay.
John
Burglary comes with a minimum 3 year sentence in most states, regardless of the amount involved. Why is this any different? This system needs to be revamped.
And what a bonus too. They are requiring these lowlives to make restitution through 2005? Until someone comes out and tells the public what really happened, what to look for and how the cards were sold--REAL LEGENDS' GRADE AND TRADE, there will be no more restitution.
Who is the money man behind Real Legends? Did they know what was going on?
John
Any of you lawyers may correct me, but if I'm not mistaken, even though they got probation, they still are felons. That's nothing to brag about.
I also wonder if PSA/CU will take civil action against them?
Good News for them....I do not believe there are background checks to set up at shows.
John
<< <i> Let's see...sell several million dollars in mis-graded or fraudulently graded cards >>
TOE - How do you know it was this much? Maybe they got busted after a few thousand $ worth. I do not know, so how can you project 7 figures of switched cards?...jay
Website: http://www.qualitycards.com
12 thousand is one the fine for one reslabbed card.
I'll have the welcome mat ready for them,
Satan
But I bet they learned their lesson!! lol
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
A few thousand bucks worth of cards, someone said? An accurate amount for a couple of average days of operation IMHO.........except they weren't in operation for just a couple of days.
Oh well, fortunately PSA reacted swiftly and got the new tamper resistant/evident holder out in order to discourage any further rascally behavior. Oooooops.
Well one look at their financials released today should be enough to put the wind up them. Anyone notice that they sold off the currency division (Lynn Knight) a couple of weeks ago?
Their punishment did not fit the crime. Their legal bills are their own doing and does not restore PSA or Real Legends' name nor make the public whole. Legal bills are not a punishment but a consequence of being a scumbag.
In a civil suit there would be people who have not talked about the details of the crime who would have to spill all of the beans. It could be very ugly.
I suggest that anyone who is still buying cards out on eBay do their research. I am not mentioning names but I can assure you that these two ebay ids are not on my favorites list.
You all had better hope that Real Legends does not settle out of court. That is your only hope that you will find out what happened.
WAKE UP PEOPLE. IGNORANCE IS NOT AN EXCUSE. START ASKING THOSE TOUGH QUESTIONS THAT HAVE SCARED YOU FOR SO LONG.
Now run along and post another 83 worthless posts to add to your other 9917 of similar quality so you can get that 10k and a new title.
I do have a few suggestions!
Robert
<< <i>A few thousand bucks worth of cards, someone said? >>
ZARDOZ - I am the someone, and stated "How do we know what amount it was, be it a few thousand $ or like MBT stated millions of $. I still would like to know what kind of $ figures were dealing with, be it high or low. I wonder what the WIWAG boys confessed to...jay
Website: http://www.qualitycards.com
scdgradeandtrade
those are the ones i remember
This is all a bit off topic, but how are we going to protect ourselves and unify into a single voice that demands some form of the truth? I don't know. As a writer, it's partly my responsibility to find a way to voice my concern. There aren't a lot of places left to do it. Meida outlets are all vertically integrated. Business power has taken the form of a very sturdy oligarchy.
We've all been broken down into very small self-interest groups squabbling over nonsense. I just hope that we can put our differences away soon before we lose any form of recourse.
Sorry about the rant,
Satan
-some punk band
If it smells like sh!t and tastes like sh!t then it must be sh!t. Just wondering when this thread will be removed by the powers that be.
Always looking for 1957 Topps BB in PSA 9!
Satan i think you have been hanging out w/ Orwell too much lately...relax...
Groucho Marx
Incidently, it's far from over for WIWAG. There is a pending legal action against WIWAG from Legacy, and it wouldn't surprise me a bit if PSA will take action (unless some settlement has already been made).
Like Jay, I'd like to see how someone can prove that WIWAG sold millions of dollars worth of cards. Even the most outlandish educated estimations that I've heard from reliable sources are a tiny fraction of $2M+.
It's a shame criminals can rip you off with little risk of any real penalty while lesser offenses will get you thrown in jail.
A pirate radio station, here in town, "Burlington Free Radio" was raided by the FCC today. They operate a 10 watt station that cannot broadcast all they way across town (Burlington, VT. is no metropolis). They do not have an FCC license but do not interfere with any legal stations. It was reported on VPR today that they face fines of up to $100,000 and jail time. Yet they hurt no one, their only crime is offering people a different point of few than corporate media.
FCC penalties
Free Radio Burlington
So, it seems to me, its OK to switch some cards and keep your mouth shut, but if you speak your mind your screwed.
<< <i>Incidently, it's far from over for WIWAG. There is a pending legal action against WIWAG from Legacy, and it wouldn't surprise me a bit if PSA will take action (unless some settlement has already been made). >>
i just hope PSA passes their civil suit "winnings" onto the people who deserve it- the collectors who got screwed
A Federal Crime
12k + legal fees 8k? 10K + restitution = Anybody can do this and get away with a Federal crime.
What are they going to do to find their work in 2 years time.
Didn't a Postal worker get 10 years for doing something that looks like a misdimeanor Felony compared to this issue?
My Auctions
<< <i>Like Jay, I'd like to see how someone can prove the WIWAG sold millions of dollars worth of cards. Even the most outlandish educated estimations that I've heard from reliable sources are a tiny fraction of $2M+. >>
You guys crack me up. In due time ye will see the light. Don't kid yourself that this was some small time operation. No offense, but those of you who have both a substantial investment in PSA graded cards and who could never in a million years fathom PSA doing anything wrong, will have a hard time with the reality of this event. It might take more than court transcripts to open your eyes.
PSA did not commit the crime but have they done all that they can to mitigate damages to the public or are they doing what they feel will mitigate damages to themselves?
Want to chalk it up to speculation and write it off? That's cool my babies. It's all good. I am not losing sleep over this, despite how disturbing the entire event unfolded and was then ignored.
As I said, right now your best friend is Real Legends. They are your ticket to the truth. Answers are not going to come voluntarily by those that know the details.
Sleep well,
Toe
Anyone want to become a plaintiff?
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
I would much rather pay a huge fine ($1M+) than be labelled a felon.
The government probably made a reasonable deal here. Conspiracy theorists like PSatan aside (sorry but it is a little tough to take that last post seriously) it is not at all difficult to obtain court records. It just requires a little effort. Thanks to Dan for supplying more effort than the rest of us have mustered up!
Greg
<< <i>A bullet in the back of the head? Life imprisonment? A billion dollar fine? >>
or D) All of the above
1) The first puchaser must pay $125k in advance (after all, a PSA 10 Mantle isn't cheap)
2) Only one card will be sold at a time
Seriously though, I think it would be fair and reasonable to require WIWAG to disclose all the cards that they faked along with serial numbers if available. It doesn't do much good to offer restitution if the courts don't require publication of the damaged goods. Whenever I'll been involved in class action lawsuits (which I guess this is not), the harmed parties were notified of the fraud. In this case, it's more difficult to notify injured parties. So it's imperative that they list the cards that were altered so the collecting public can determine if they were affected. They should also be forced to send this list to any collector who purchased any card from them at any time during the period they were breaking the law.
i can remember back in the day when i couldn't wait to get the scd to see if they had an auction going on that week. i can also remember consigning many cards to them one being a jerry rice rookie psa 9. the card at the time sold for nothing and i was kind on upset . how hard would it have been for them to do this to a jerry rice rookie that routinly sells or sold for 200 bucs (i have no idea what it sells for now) ?have you ever been at a show and seen a rice rookie and say to yourself man my 8 is better? they probably did this on many vintage cards but i bet they did it to these type cards that sell for 2/300 bucs a pop. its like my old saying if i am going to counterfeit money i would do 20's because they never check them. i can name probably 25 cards from the 70's 80's that they could have done this to easily (and all sold for 200 or so easy) montana,elway,rice,lemieux,jordan, gretzky(this just reminded me of an opc gretzky rookie i bought from them it was a psa 8 and was terrible and i returned right away. i bet that was 96 or 97) think about they probably had stacks of these cards that were borderline nm mt or mint and they just kept submitting the same 5 or 6. i bet they were not the only dealer that was doing this they just the ones that got caught.
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
<< <i>
Seriously though, I think it would be fair and reasonable to require WIWAG to disclose all the cards that they faked along with serial numbers if available. It doesn't do much good to offer restitution if the courts don't require publication of the damaged goods. Whenever I'll been involved in class action lawsuits (which I guess this is not), the harmed parties were notified of the fraud. In this case, it's more difficult to notify injured parties. So it's imperative that they list the cards that were altered so the collecting public can determine if they were affected. They should also be forced to send this list to any collector who purchased any card from them at any time during the period they were breaking the law. >>
Like an auto recall notice.
Ultimately the consumer is the victim because they own these cards.It's only fair that all parties involved make some sort of publication.
All cards will be located inside 2 + years.
Who's responsible after wiwag completes
their agreement passed down by the court.
My Auctions
What an alarmist bunch of carp. I believe we went into Iraq to finish a job that should have been finished a dozen years earlier. I also believe we live in a world where not everyone has good intentions. We, as Americans, need to keep better tabs on who is here and what is being contemplated. The 'government' is/are people like you and I.....elected officials, law enforcement officers, FBI Agents, CIA Agents, Military personel, Judges, etc...'Which of these are out to get you? Which individual who is trying to think of ways to prevent another 9/11 is your Boogieman?
Is it the removal of your shoes in an airport? The tapping of your cell phone call to your wife? What ilicit behavior are you so petrified of exposing?
I guess I'm just 'naive', but I haven't been threatened by anyone representing the USA. I'm more threatened by the ACLU and other
groups who cost us so much in wasting court costs and red tape.
<< <i>A bullet in the back of the head? Life imprisonment? A billion dollar fine? What would be appropriate? These guys are now convicted felons of a federal crime. Their lives are surely tough and much more difficult than before. Take comfort in knowing that they are convicted felons and keep their names alive on these boards for all to remember. They must be OSTRACIZED. That in itself is severe punishment. >>
I think the answer is jail time. Around 6-12 months. And a stipulation made that these 2 are to be permenately barred from buying/selling/trading sports cards ever again.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
Could there possibly be agendas that are self-serving within this WIWAG fiasco? I don't know. Maybe I'm stupid.
I'm done. I apologize again for getting off topic with the political stuff earlier.
S.
The only way that us collectors will be helped here is if the serial numbers are released. PSA has all the stuff and I am willing to bet that somehow, WIWAG also kept some sort of records. This stuff has to be made public and I don't mean in some courthouse basement. There should be a link right on the PSA website. I also think that WIWAG should publicly provide the information. I know that eBay's records only go back so far, but do they have back-ups? Is there a way to fish out all their old auctions? I know that many people keep records of where they bought their cards, but I don't. I am pretty sure that I have bought some slabbed PSA cards from WIWAG on eBay and I think that I should be able to go back and find out which ones they were.
Dave
sellerman23
1975 Topps
1952 Topps
HOF
<< <i>There should be a link right on the PSA website. I also think that WIWAG should publicly provide the information. >>
i doubt psa wants to put a recall notice on their website. i am just guessing. i would say that would blacken the other eye. think about it psa wants to sweep this under the rug as fast as they can and move on. they don't want links all over the graded card planet saying we were comprimized and here are the cards that we suspect under these serial numbers that would just open the door for anti-psa people to bury them in an open forum.
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
Looks like you have brought up another bad subject again. Just stick to cards and non-offensive jokes, that will work better for all of us.
Thanks,
1954
I agree that this is a travesty of justice.I am sure that the amount of money that was scammed is probably quite a bit more than we are being led to believe.Also, I am sure that this involves thousands of cards instead of just a few hundred.If I were a dishonest card dealer,this outcome would be a confirmation that crime indeed does pay.
I would think that PSA has an obligation to post the serial numbers of the cards that were submitted by WIWAG.Even though it might probably be damaging at first,I think that it would strengthen PSAs outlook by the collecting community in the long run.
Joe,
Why is PSA silent?
Should this subject maybe be addressed by the highest level of management at CU?
The inability of PSA to release card serial numbers will surely be the topic of all message boards and card shows across the card collecting community.If PSA is hopeing to sweep this under the rug,it is my humble opinion that this will do MUCH more damage than full disclosure would.
While I am not a big submitter and will still continue to have faith in PSA,I am left wondering why the powers that be are not seemingly concerned with their customers(whom,by the way ultimately pay the salaries).If the people that run PSA were also big holders of graded cards,What would you want out of your company?What would you feel are their obligations to their customers?
While this may seem as a PSA bashing response,I am just voicing what will probably be uttered over and over again if PSA does not take a proactive stance.
Just my opinion,
Vic
I think you meant to say that "It would work better for you". I don't remember any election for mayor of this board. The concept here is to let every man speak for himself/herself. How are those spammed stand-ups selling, Mr. Purity?
Baa! Baa!
S.