1960-D Franklin PCGS MS66 Rare (pop 1, 0 finer)

20thcenturycoins

I can't find any pricing information on 1960-D PCGS MS66. PCGS
price guide quotes $15,000 in MS66-FBL only. This coin is the only
coin graded by PCGS in MS66-nonFBL. I have pictures below of this
coin, and of 2 coins in PCGS MS66-FBL which traded this year at
Teletrade for $11,500 each. Any ideas a good price for MS66 ????
If you go by the PCGS price guide for 1949-D MS66 and MS66-FBL,
which is comparable in rarity to 1960-D MS66, then 1960-D MS66
should be about a $5000-$10,000 coin. Do you like the looks of this
MS66 compared to the MS66-FBL shown. PCGS Pop for MS66-FBL is 6.

wondercoin

I could not bring up your pictures, but, if my memory serves me right, I believe that coin was offered in one of the sales at Baltimore this year - perhaps the Bowers sale. Check out the Bowers Baltimore sale for more (possible) information.

Wondercoin

20thcenturycoins

I have pictures shown now for you all. Thanks!!

wondercoin

Yep - I recall seeing it in the Baltimore auction. Can anyone pull up a price realized from the sale?

Wondercoin

20thcenturycoins

You are correct. The below link shows the auction item photo/description. But no pricing info.

Bowers 2003 ANA auction 1960-D PCGS MS66 50c

Russ

Put it on eBay at $1 no reserve and see what happens. My guess is that it would bring no more than $2K.

Russ, NCNE

wondercoin

So, do you know what was the reserve it failed to hit at auction? I'm sure a quick call to Bowers can assist you in knowing what the highest anyone truly bid in the sale prior to the reserve not being met.

Wondercoin

20thcenturycoins

I think people are hesitant to buy over $1000 on ebay because Paypal only insures to $1000.
I would think Teletrade or Heritage would be best since they act like an escrow. You can return
a coin if you don't like it.

wondercoin

20th: I never heard of that, but, then you can simply offer on ebay with no PAYPAL.

Feel free to PM me an asking price on the coin - I might play

Wondercoin

20thcenturycoins

Bowers put $900 as opening bid, but it looks like there were no bidders.
I don't know if that means people did not like it, or they were not looking for such a coin
as top priority, or what?

wondercoin

"Bowers put $900 as opening bid, but it looks like there were no bidders"

Look at the bright side - possibly no PAYPAL problem

Send me an email (mjcapc@aol.com) if you wish to discuss the coin.

Wondercoin

20thcenturycoins

Thanks guys for the feedback. I think I might need to hold on to this and see if any more MS66
get graded and sell so a price is established. NGC has graded I think 6 or 7 in MS66 and 1 or 2 in MS66FBL which is exact opposite of PCGS. PCGS having 6 FBL. ANACS has graded none higher than MS65FBL. No MS67 exist in the 3 populations. Total combined population of MS66 FBL and nonFBL is less than 15 coins and equal number of FBL to nonFBL.

20thcenturycoins

I would take $4500 for it no hesitation and slap it up on ebay for anyone who would like to buy it at that price (i.e. Buy it now! option). Sorry if that is way over what you anticipated. Honestly, I think that could be fair if one compares to 1949-D MS66.

LucyBop

hmmmm........

wondercoin

Thanks for thinking of us. Any other "pop 1" coins in stock? Wondercoin

20thcenturycoins

Yes I do, but it is in an ANACS holder. The coin is a MS65 (really MS65-FBL) and is the 1959-P "Goiter", "Goatee", "DBL-Chin" variety. It is the only coin ANACS has graded in MS65 and is the highest in their population. They have graded only a couple others in lower MS grades.

20thcenturycoins

See ANACS highest graded in 1959-P MS65 "Goatee" die break

20thcenturycoins

I see you have some nice 1955 MS65-FBL to MS66-FBL like me!!!

I sent in 6 from mint sets and got these grades: 1-MS65, 3-MS65FBL,1-MS66,1-MS66FBL
and one of the 65FBL has the bugs bunny teeth. I also have a white MS65b PCGS with
Bugs teeth. PCGS does not put that on the slab though?

20thcenturycoins

I gave the coin to the ANACS grader at a Fort Worth, Texas ANA coin show and he asked me if I wanted the words "Goatee" or "Goiter". I said "Goiter" because that is what Rick Tomaska says Stanton/Fivaz call it. But it came back to me "Goatee". That sounds better actually. But maybe Double Chin is better yet? What do you all think is the better name?

Russ

<< <i>I would take $4500 for it no hesitation >>



You're dreaming.

Russ, NCNE

LucyBop

This coin is going to be a tough sell......

Yes its a Pop Top, but the non -fbl hurts here, because a pop 1 coin warrants a premium and many will not justify it because they may purchase a ms65fbl cheaper..... I too think 4500 is really high on this one.... However, you just need one buyer on this Pop top..

wondercoin

"This coin is going to be a tough sell......"

That is old news - I believe that coin was in the same sale where the 1948(p) Franklin sold for $30,000. All "Franklin eyes" were on the coins in that auction, I am afraid to say and no one advanced the opening bid of $900. You are the master of understatement with the comment "tough sell" at $4500, but, I wish the owner the best of luck with it.

Wondercoin

Typetone

Problem is that the FBL designation and the registry have killed the market for non-FBL Franklins. For example, in the Franklin registry, a 60-D in MS66 gets the same credit as a 64FBL. I'm not saying yours isn't worth more, but that is the trade-off registry players are looking at. A 65FBL gets more credit than a 66. So, there will still be those who will pay for a nice non-FBL coin, but the market has been limited by the registry.

I recently bought a magnificent 52S in MS66 (none graded higher) for 1/3 the price of what I would have to pay for an average MS65FBL. Why? In the registry the MS66 is only equal to an MS63FBL for the date.

I don't really like that situation, but that seems to be the way it is. It's one of the reasons, I sold my high end Franklin set and kept a only a lower value second set.

Low pops are valued in part for their value in a registry. For Franklins it has to be FBL. I remember a few years ago (when Franklin prices were higher) I bought a 63-D in MS66. At that time there were only a couple of 66s and a couple of FBLs. While an FBL would have gone then for about 5K, I bought mine for I think about $500. I would be surprised if your piece is valued over $1,000. Sorry to say it, but I think that is the reality.

Greg

LucyBop

I'm not trying to sound negative on this one..... It is a shame that FBL does hurt coins such as this... I think TypeTones 1k figure is more in line.... However, I've been wrong before.....

Stooge

Wondercoin, the 1948 Franklin that you are referring too, is that the 1948 MS67FBL pop (1/0) that David Hall had. Do you happen to know who purchased that coin....I was just (sorry for the pun) wondering.

Paul.

IrishMike

The full bell line designation is as nutty as the full torch for Roosies is. Unfortunately we as collectors go along with this nonsense. The only good part the FBL designation is the fact that I can buy knockout Frankies without FBL for great prices while the FBL devotees chase after that line on the bell.

wondercoin

Paul: Yes I do know who purchased the 1948(p) and I believe it is now also registered in his #1 collection.

Wondercoin

wondercoin

"The full bell line designation is as nutty as the full torch for Roosies is. Unfortunately we as collectors go along with this nonsense. The only good part the FBL designation is the fact that I can buy knockout Frankies without FBL for great prices while the FBL devotees chase after that line on the bell."

I couldn't agree with you more. And, then on top of that - NGC uses a different standard for FBL than PCGS does, making it even more crazy for the collector! For example, I mentioned on another thread that I recently purchased at auction a monster toned 1959(d) in an NGC-MS66 holder (for just $690 even though I was prepared to bid around $3,000 for the coin - but it was not designated FBL on the NGC holder). The coin is both a PCGS-MS66+ and FBL by PCGS' definition. It will likely become a very low pop finest known for the date very pretty color coin at PCGS (very tough date to locate in pop top pretty color). Now, how silly that such a great coin (one of the nicest 59(d) Franklins I have ever seen) must leave an NGC holder because they do not designate it FBL. Hence, problem for the collector compounded.

Wondercoin

riverman

I think "goatee" sounds better. A "goiter" is a visible enlargement of the
thyroid gland. A person would probably have to go to the doctor to get
a shot to cure a "goiter".

mnmcoin

Typetone hits the home run here, he hits the nail on the head. I still have and have sold a number of non fbl coins as well as comparable non cameo coins and even though they were pop top coins, very scarce in the high grade, such as an MS66 post 58 Franklin is, people want those points. (it is the same reason why I am looking for another MS68 1965 sms Kennedy, which I should be able to pay under $200 for instead of a 67cam, same points as the 68, but for half the money) The fact that you can get a comparable 64FBL for around $35, and a 65FBL (which is more points) for $600 is what is going to kill you. As the horidtage sale showed you, you will be lucky to get more than $1000 for it. And your only hope of getting more is to find the right buyer that appreciates the MS66 grade for a post 58 coin.

Yes, the 60d in MS66 is fairly scarce coin, but "Live by the registry, die by the registry."

morris <><

Typetone

Morris is right.

That's why I sold my 65FBL/66FBL registry set that I assembled three years ago. I just couldn't see the point in spending the big dollars on FBL coins when better coins were available sometimes at a fraction of the price.

Best example is the 53SFBL. An MS65FBL example would cost what, 10K or so. I found a great MS66 for $300. Great color, great strike, almost FBL. It is clearly a better coin then most 65FBLs. Yet it gets zip registry points. I just didn't want to spend a lot of money playing that game anymore. So decided to keep some of my nice lower grade coins, whether or not FBL, and replace the big time FBLs with some non-FBLs, and lower grade FBLs. I now have about $1,500 in my set, (Typetone set in the registry), and I think the coins look pretty neat. The whole set costs less than one of the big FBLs.

Greg

Ronyahski

<< <i>Bowers put $900 as opening bid, but it looks like there were no bidders.
I don't know if that means people did not like it, or they were not looking for such a coin
as top priority, or what? >>




I think it might be because people did not like it. I saw it at Baltimore and graded it a 65.

wondercoin

"I think it might be because people did not like it. I saw it at Baltimore and graded it a 65."

No question - the fact it did not get a $900 opening bid in the Bowers sale is an important piece of information to the question of whether a $4500 asking price is "in line". Bowers put on a super auction in Baltimore and got strong prices for some things, including the 48(p) half in MS67FBL (close to $30,000). Typetone is correct, as is everyone else who pointed out that non-designated coins are "ice cold" at this point.

Is this a good time to buy RB Lincolns, non-FH SLQ's, non-FBL Franklins, etc? Heck if I know, but, I can appreciate a coin for being a coin, which is why at the right level I would have no problem owning a 1960(d) half in MS66. While "rare" may be too strong a word IMHO, "scarce" is probably a fair enough term for a TRUE MS66 1960(d) Franklin and many Franklin collectors would enjoy such a coin, with or without bell lines. I suspect if the coin was posted to ebay with an opening bid of $500 and NO RESERVE, it would probably not only sell, but see multiple bidders pursuing it. I might even post the first bid

Wondercoin

braddick

Eye Appeal. Some MS66 Franklins have it, other (most) don't.

If anything the NON sale of this coin speaks volumes, all positive, regarding the state of the Registry.
Not any 'ol coin will do. It has to have the numbers AND the "look" whether it's $900.00 or $4,500.00.

MoneyLA

while Im not a Franklin collector, the issue regarding fbl designations is similar to the dispute Ive had with dcam proof washingtons getting more registry points than higher graded proofs that are not cam or dcam -- for example (as you all know) a pr69dcam getting more registry points than a pr70.

I would think that when it came to fbl franklins, the point score would AUTOMATICALLY include the bell lines. and with the case of roosevelts, again, the point score would also include the bands?

let's take it to another issue -- are we someday going to see full beak or full clawed ms washingtons? I would think those strike characteristics would already be included in the grade?

and while Im attacking the point and designation issues, let me guess if another issue will return: decimal point scores -- like 68.3 vs 68.7 ??

each time registry rules and points scoring and designations change, the market goes into turmoil and clearly collections and money are at stake.

I know that the value of my pr70's was DESTROYED by the weighting for dcams.

cheers, alan mendelson

mnmcoin

<< <i>"I think it might be because people did not like it. I saw it at Baltimore and graded it a 65."

No question - the fact it did not get a $900 opening bid in the Bowers sale is an important piece of information to the question of whether a $4500 asking price is "in line". Bowers put on a super auction in Baltimore and got strong prices for some things, including the 48(p) half in MS67FBL (close to $30,000). Typetone is correct, as is everyone else who pointed out that non-designated coins are "ice cold" at this point.

Is this a good time to buy RB Lincolns, non-FH SLQ's, non-FBL Franklins, etc? Heck if I know, but, I can appreciate a coin for being a coin, which is why at the right level I would have no problem owning a 1960(d) half in MS66. While "rare" may be too strong a word IMHO, "scarce" is probably a fair enough term for a TRUE MS66 1960(d) Franklin and many Franklin collectors would enjoy such a coin, with or without bell lines. I suspect if the coin was posted to ebay with an opening bid of $500 and NO RESERVE, it would probably not only sell, but see multiple bidders pursuing it. I might even post the first bid

Wondercoin >>



Very well said. I completely concur...the only thing I would add is make sure you included good, scratch that great pictures, definitely better than the ones you attached. If you don't have the ability to take better pictures then send it someone who can, or consign it to someone who can.

You also mentioned that you wished to hold onto it until a price can be established...that is the worst mistake you can make. As a pop 1, that is your strongest and really only selling point. Sell it and establish a decent price yourself, before others are made and lower your potential price.

JMHO

morris <><

bushmaster8

Greg Samo. and others are absolutely right. The population of , for example, a 1961 Frankie in MS66 is a tiny fraction of the pop. of 1961 in MS65 FBL. Yet the latter has far more clout in the registry rankings. It seems that the vast majority of collectors see this situation as a major blunder by PCGS. It is a crying shame that it seems there is virtually nothing we can do about it. Why doesn't someone bring the situation to the attention of HRH on the Q&A forum and see how he justifies it??

mnmcoin

It is the same situation as the cu price guide. Each series has several anomolies (sp) and it takes a considerable amount of time to adjust each appropriately. And with them grading well over 100,000 coin each month, there is virtually no time and manpower to conquer it. They are slowly trying to solve it, but it really takes alot of time and effort to make it work, and even if they had it fixed, I am sure some people would not be happy.

morris <><

Ronyahski

Remember when PCGS was in the initial stages of instituting weighting? And when they asked for specific comments on the Franklin series and FBL scoring? I submitted comments twice to PCGS, rather detailed comments, along with current population and price analysis backing up my opinion. Those comments focused on what Typetone, Bushmaster, et.al. are pointing out now, the FBL designation is grossly overweighted. Population reports would still support that view, unfortunately prices would not. How much of this was self-fulfilling prophecy?

IrishMike

There is obviuosly a registry issue as well as collector issued involved in these designations and of course dealers and graders have a financial incentive to want them. The blame lays with collectors however, they by their purchasing decisions made this an issue.

Some of the harshest critics of the NGC * are FSB and FBL collectors and their arguement is always that I don't need a grading company's opinion to tell me if a coin has eye appeal, but they are willing to lay out big bucks for an opinion on whether a coin has full split bands or full bell lines, which the different grading companies can't even agree on what constitutes full lines. I have to laugh at myself as one of the members of the coin collecting community, only coin collectors would let this happen.

Alan, at least in most cases you can glance at an Ultra Cameo quarter and ascertain whether is has a deep cameo appearance or not.

LucyBop

More FBL for me!

20thcenturycoins

Eye Appeal !!! What a novel idea!

This is why the market is down for Franklins. There are a lot of ugly coins being put in high graded holder by a lot of different services (top 3, and others). NGC has started to help by designating W white. But I think we need more. Obv toning percentage (0-100%) and Rev toning percentage (0-100%) at 10% intervals. Also, there are some high graded coins with significant dings. These are not bag marks, but mint debris on the planchet or die I guess which does not seem to matter to the graders? It is hard to tell on an auction internet sites sometimes all these attributes by the poor pictures, so what we are dealing with in most cases is a site unseen market and buying a slab grade instead of a coin. I like Rick Tomaskas grading e.g. 1-1-1. Grade, eye appeal, and rarity.

20thcenturycoins

Rarity is important because although a 1958-P Franklin ins MS66 is not rare, if it is 100% white it surely is rare of extrremely scarce. Most high end coins are from mint sets and are toned. To assemble a MS65 FBL or nonFBL set in 100% white is extremely difficult.

Russ

<< <i>NGC has started to help by designating W white. >>



NGC dropped that designation.

Russ, NCNE

Typetone

I made the same comments to PCGS as Ronyahski made when Franklins were weighted. I suugested a 1/2 point premium for FBLs. I thought they would do 1 point. What a surprise when they did 2 points and more for some dates. I disagree with all excessive bonuses for strikes.

To say that the registry doesn't matter is wrong. Part of the reason coins like Franklins are so expensive is because of the registry. The FBL 2 point bonus helped destroy the non - FBL market IMO.

On the other hand, maybe it is an opportunity to pick up beautiful non-FBL pieces for a song.

Perhaps this is why we are observing a weak market for Franklins. People are waking up to the FBL issue and selling these before the bottom drops out. The non-FBLs are probably holding up albeit from low levels.

BTW, I did ask David Hall his view of all this on the Q&A a month or so ago. The older threads are not saved, but his response was that the registry weights reflected their view of the then market prices. He stated a belief that the registry weighting per sec did not affect relative market prices. He did say that when PCGS initially started to designate FBL that was the event that moved prices.

However, the bottom line is if all this is true, I blame us as collectors. We are the ones who buy and sell. The initial FBL designations were done before the registry was any big deal. If we are willing to pay more for 65FBLs that are inferior to beautiful 66s, then we get what we deserve.

The lesson for the future is to pay more attention to strike in non designated series right now. Walkers are the best example. PCGS will almost certainly start strike designations in other series. Best to get our stuff in order now.

Why not buy non-FBL Franklins that look like this for a song:

wondercoin

Greg: I was one of the FEW who opposed adding an "FB" designation to Roosies. You may remember my comments on the subject; they were, at times, not very "pro-PCGS". My "colleages" pushed for the "FB" and to some it has been a real "money maker". I HAVE YET TO SELL A SINGLE SILVER FB DIME - in my registry set (#31 or something like that) I even note where I own 4 or 5 coins of each date. I am frankly disgusted by the whole affair (Ok - now amused in the words of E. Costello) - I could care less if I am costing myself thousands of dollars - I am sure I will make it up later when Registry fever reaches it peak and collectors fight for the dimes with the "most points" attached to them - again, "most points", not best dimes.

BUT, WHAT IS DONE IS DONE. The genie is out of the bottle and, as Greg said, the collectors are as much to blame as anyone else. It is the collectors who have decided MS67FBL coins are worth $30,000 each and their MS67 non-FBL counterparts worth around $500. It is the collectors who value key MS66FBL coins at $20k+ and their non-FBL counterparts at $500.

Greg: Now to address you question as to your pretty 1953(s) MS66. I own numerous coins just like it - several dated 1953(s). They are worth next to nothing (generally well under $1k) and may be that way for a long time. They are near "worthless" in the Registry - they are the dinosaurs of coin collecting - they are the castoffs of our time. They can go to their own party with non-FH SLQ's, RB Lincolns, non-FS Jeffs and non-FB Roosies and Mercs - but, don't expect many folks to attend that party. The other Registry party is serving up FB Mercs and Roosies, FS Jeffs, FH SLQ's and FBL Frankies (botom lines only OK) - champagne is flowing, dancing girls are coming out of cakes and the music is wild. The crowds are huge at the designation party - standing room only, while the non-designation coins have a few stranglers sitting around at their gathering drinking grape juice, reading books and talking about the old days. And, even though the non-designated coins look so darn pretty - no one is asking them out to attend the big bash down on Registry Blvd. Get the picture?

Wondercoin

IrishMike

Wondercoin interesting post, the wild party sounds a lot like the one they threw on the Titantic.

wondercoin

"Wondercoin interesting post, the wild party sounds a lot like the one they threw on the Titantic."

I wasn't there; I wouldn't know.

Wondercoin

MoneyLA

Wondercoin--- you have another career ahead of you ---- writer. I'm impressed. Care to write about numismatics for my website??

In another thread it was written: "Alan, at least in most cases you can glance at an Ultra Cameo quarter and ascertain whether is has a deep cameo appearance or not." While dcam coins might have a special appearance, it still floors me that a pr70 washington will carry less weight in the registry than a pr69dcam coin. Doesnt a pr70 designation indicate a better coin than a pr69dcam designation?

And since this thread is about Franks, let me offer this: wouldnt a ms66 coin be better than a ms65fbl coin? apparantly not.

cheers, alan mendelson

wondercoin

"Wondercoin--- you have another career ahead of you ---- writer. I'm impressed. Care to write about numismatics for my website??"

Alan: Only if we meet first - we have been trying to get together for 6 months now unsuccessfully! Maybe it's time to simply meet 1/2 way one night

Wondercoin

MoneyLA

Wondercoin, be honest: do you have a screenplay in your glovebox about a missing 1804 silver dollar, with a murder/sex subplot, and a backstory about a scandalous grading service, and a corrupt tax-avoiding dot com numismatic auction house CEO who leads the police on a high-speed chase to avoid arrest while threatening suicide because the coin belongs to a Russian spy who gave it to the dealer to launder because it was payment for handling government nuclear secrets? And all the while during the high speed chase the main character of our story wonders if the coin will cross from NGC to PCGS? If you do, we can meet and discuss how to market the film. cheers, alan mendelson