I invited the seller to join us here last night. I guess he did not care to. He did offer these words.
<< <i>We do do the right thing! We just don't let buyers BS us. When you buy a slabbed coin by a major coin grading company, PCGS in this instance, graded MS70, it is adequately described, pictured with three scans that are enlargeable, and then keep it a week before deciding to return it, it just does not sit well with us. We consider slabbed coins in the same category as bullion items and not returnable.
We do have a liberal return policy, but not on some whim.....................
I do not know what party you are in this matter, but hope I answered your query. And remember there are usually two sides to every dispute.
Thank you. >>
Yes I know this was not my business but it really caught me as a raw deal. I feel he dumped the coin and the problem on someone else to deal with PCGS.
I'll say it again.... I have quite a few PCGS MS70 Modern Gold Commemoratives and the coin I received is not even close. I can state with certainty that neither ACG nor NTC would give this coin such a lofty grade! The coin was shipped Global Priority Mail and SIGNED INTO THE POST OFFICE ON THE 17TH BY A POSTAL EMPOYEE as received at PO 27948. I direct your attention to the picture; especially the right column where it says "Employee Signature". Once the "Employee" receives this package, he or she leaves a delivery slip in the customers PO box (ATTEMPTING DELIVERY) that they have a package for them to pick up. The Seller is confusing this date with the date I actually found the 'pick up" slip in my box and took delivery of the coin; but it doesn't matter even if I did pick the coin up on the 17th, he has a NQA return policy he isn't honoring! The coin is also shown highlighting the most obvious blemishes (there are also those not so obvious).
Claus, you're addressing the wrong audience at this point.
I think you have been given some excellent imformation and advice by a number of forum members. Quit trying to convince us and get to work on the seller. I will repeat, one more time - the condition of the coin and other considerations are secondary to the seller's stated unconditional return policy - work on that.
what a fool he truly is - what we have at least 30-40 unique collectors on this thread alone who know so much and so many collector who know......plus watch what happens next time someone starts a thread with "Has anyone had dealings with........"
Therefore other than Mark's advice - plain and simple - rush him a copy by fax or email or whateerv of this thread in its entirety. He can still save his silly tusch if he comes clean.
After all is said and done, I would fry this guy. His policy is well stated as far as returns go. If you paid via Paypal with a credit card, I would definately challenge the the charge.
Advise ANA as well.
Bulldog
Proud to have fought for America, and to be an AMERICAN!
For what it's worth. I have been looking at auctions that this seller has. But if the 'no hassle' return policy isn't really that. I think I will pass.
I believe eBay rules state that only terms and conditions on the auction page itself can be enforced. So, be wary of relying on promises made on About Me pages or other links to the auctions. I'm not sure how this applies if you ask a seller for clarification. One may be able to protect oneself by e-mailing the seller in these situations. Notwithstanding, this is such a gross violation that I'd try eBay anyway.
Second, I believe the ANA return privilege language (unless it has been modified in the past year or so) can be read to not apply to auction transactions. While I'm sure that exception was not intended to apply to the eBay situation, a technical reading would probably protect the seller. Again, however, notwithstanding, this is an exceptional situation and still warrants action. If nothing else, it could cause the ANA to rewrite the provision.
<< <i>You both have legitimate gripes, but it seems PCGS should be skewered and raked over the coals for not grading MS70's the way you like them! >>
ARCO
Looks like a bad "rinse" job to me - Lets give PCGS the benefit of the doubt on this - my guess is that when that coin was graded, it didn't look like that - what PCGS would do on its grade guarantee is only an educated guess, buy they may be willing to do a "grade review" per the PCGS grade guarantee & if they downgrade the coin, pay Claus the difference, Claus will have to submit the coin & request that. In the mean time, I doubt that this seller is going to refund any money unless someone files a small claims action - His posted email pretty much says that & unless Ebay puts pressure on him (threatens to ban him), he's not gonna refund Claus' money.
But as of now, PCGS does NOT deserve to be "raked over the coals" lots of people do lots of things to make a coin look better before sending them in for grading - the most common is a lite dip in jeweluster - - if not rinsed properly, that splotchy toning shows up 6-9 months later - So my guess is the coin didn't have it when it was graded. As for grading coins "the way [we] like them!" I don't think PCGS will ever do that - they graded them the way THEY like 'em!
(If they graded my Proof IHCs the way I like them, my 99% RBs would be Red, & the Reds that are about 80% Red would be RB, but what do I know?, I just collect 'em.)
Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain Newmismatist
Thank you posting this on the board. I think it is of great value to many of us. I have purchased coins from this seller in the past on Ebay. As sight unseen transactions, I put great reliance upon the slab and his return policy. I was satisified with my transactions with him.
I will no longer be bidding on this seller's coins.
There is absolutely no legitimate excuse for his failure to honor a "no questions return policy." I don't care if it was Q. David himself buying the coin on Ebay!
Thanks again for making me aware of this behavior and backing up your statements with the emails.
Claus---as an aside, if I were you I would get one of those Customer Service complaint forms from your Post Office and make a formal written complaint that you were not notified in a timely manner of the arrival of your mail.
I know that is not going to help you get a refund from the creep, but at least it will prevent the same blunder from occurring in the future (hopefully). Those complaint forms are VERY effective at righting wrongs at the PO, in my experience.
"Wars are really ugly! They're dirty and they're cold. I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole." Mary
I doubt that this seller is going to refund any money unless someone files a small claims action
You must have never experienced small claims court. If you have a valid case you chance of winning the case are good. But forget about collecting. Virtually unforcable to get someone to pay unless you do more court actions, which all cost more money. Small claims court is a waste of time unless you seek $1000+.
I've heard many people complain that "dirty laundry" referring to coin transactions inparticular should not be aired in public. I would only agree with that statement as far as trying to settle it privately first goes, but what is someone supposed to do if they have tried already to get things settled privately ???
Clause, Jadecoin, or anyone else that has a gripe with a coin related situation [including myself in this statement] should try to settle situations like this privately first, and I think Jade could have phrased his thread more politely then he did, but if a coin company and a buyer of a coin or a coin related service DOES try to settle it privately and gets nowhere, should they just go "oh well, thats the brakes in the coin bizz" and keep their mouths shut???
I got flamed "but good" for bringing a complaint I felt was legit to the forum after I tried with no success the direct approach, and low and behold I got results!!! To me, that spoke loader then anyone that bad mouthed me over it. I say bad transactions that aren't resolved in private should be exposed so that all can see and decide for themselves if they want to take action over it such as avoiding the sellers auctions or not trusting grading services to do their own homework on pedigree coins.
I for one want to know such information for my own benefit before I buy any product or service coin related. Good for you Clause!!!
Les
The President claims he didn't lie about taxes for those earning less then $250,000 a year with public mandated health insurance yet his own justice department has said they will use the right of the government to tax when the states appeals go to court.
I hate to be a negative ninny- but... I am going to be one anyway. I NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER buy anything from anyone outside of the US or Canada. I would buy something from England should I "have to have" it, but when it comes to dealing with other countries, I don't care WHO they say they are, or what sort of dealer they are, or what their return policy is, the fact is- this is what can happen. I am sorry for your loss, and I hope you come to some sort of resolution, but I also hope you make sure you know who you are buying from in the future.
Is there any way this coin could be considered bullion. That could also be a way out for the dealer.
We hear it over and over and over again on this Forum. Gosh, I bought a bad coin on e-bay. What should I do? DON'T BUY FROM THEM. Unless you know them or can ask around about them. E-Mail, check out return policies. I don't care whose holder it is in. This is the risk you take when buying sight unseen. The majority of these e-bay dealers are on the fringe. Most of them buy problem coins or at best marginal coins way back of sheet. So they list them and it looks like a good deal, someone will bite.
Grade guarantee or no, the seller offered a no-questions-asked return privilege. Let the seller refund ClausUrch and then he can pursue the guarantee with PCGS.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
No time frame given for the No Questions Asked Return Policy. I picked the coin up from my PO around 10:00 Am and e-mailed the Seller around 2:00 PM. 4 Hour return policy????
I wonder if Claus can send the coin to PCGS and ask them to remove those stains? That way, it'll be "curated" professionally and then reholdered as an MS70.
Curious how this works out. The scan clearly shows that coin is pretty much crap. Wouldn't have pulled trigger on that one. 95% of coins on ebay are pretty much junk, it's a risk you take. Win some lose some, but if the cletus does state no Q ask return he should take it back and sell it to the next sucker on ebay, or you can just list it with book of $2800 and make some $ on it yourself. Coins are just risky if your picky, look good one year, then they get spots and colors then it's just if you can live it or just dump it on ebay......
Comments
That'll fix his wagon!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
He did offer these words.
<< <i>We do do the right thing! We just don't let buyers BS us. When you buy a
slabbed coin by a major coin grading company, PCGS in this instance, graded
MS70, it is adequately described, pictured with three scans that are
enlargeable, and then keep it a week before deciding to return it, it just
does not sit well with us. We consider slabbed coins in the same category as
bullion items and not returnable.
We do have a liberal return policy, but not on some
whim.....................
I do not know what party you are in this matter, but hope I answered your
query. And remember there are usually two sides to every dispute.
Thank you. >>
Yes I know this was not my business but it really caught me as a raw deal.
I feel he dumped the coin and the problem on someone else to deal with PCGS.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
The coin is also shown highlighting the most obvious blemishes (there are also those not so obvious).
I think you have been given some excellent imformation and advice by a number of forum members. Quit trying to convince us and get to work on the seller. I will repeat, one more time - the condition of the coin and other considerations are secondary to the seller's stated unconditional return policy - work on that.
Therefore other than Mark's advice - plain and simple - rush him a copy by fax or email or whateerv of this thread in its entirety. He can still save his silly tusch if he comes clean.
Marc
Advise ANA as well.
Bulldog
No good deed will go unpunished.
Free Money Search
Second, I believe the ANA return privilege language (unless it has been modified in the past year or so) can be read to not apply to auction transactions. While I'm sure that exception was not intended to apply to the eBay situation, a technical reading would probably protect the seller. Again, however, notwithstanding, this is an exceptional situation and still warrants action. If nothing else, it could cause the ANA to rewrite the provision.
Good luck!
WH
<< <i>You both have legitimate gripes, but it seems PCGS should be skewered and raked over the coals for not grading MS70's the way you like them! >>
ARCO
Looks like a bad "rinse" job to me - Lets give PCGS the benefit of the doubt on this - my guess is that when that coin was graded, it didn't look like that - what PCGS would do on its grade guarantee is only an educated guess, buy they may be willing to do a "grade review" per the PCGS grade guarantee & if they downgrade the coin, pay Claus the difference, Claus will have to submit the coin & request that. In the mean time, I doubt that this seller is going to refund any money unless someone files a small claims action - His posted email pretty much says that & unless Ebay puts pressure on him (threatens to ban him), he's not gonna refund Claus' money.
But as of now, PCGS does NOT deserve to be "raked over the coals" lots of people do lots of things to make a coin look better before sending them in for grading - the most common is a lite dip in jeweluster - - if not rinsed properly, that splotchy toning shows up 6-9 months later - So my guess is the coin didn't have it when it was graded. As for grading coins "the way [we] like them!" I don't think PCGS will ever do that - they graded them the way THEY like 'em!
(If they graded my Proof IHCs the way I like them, my 99% RBs would be Red, & the Reds that are about 80% Red would be RB, but what do I know?, I just collect 'em.)
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
I will no longer be bidding on this seller's coins.
There is absolutely no legitimate excuse for his failure to honor a "no questions return policy." I don't care if it was Q. David himself buying the coin on Ebay!
Thanks again for making me aware of this behavior and backing up your statements with the emails.
I know that is not going to help you get a refund from the creep, but at least it will prevent the same blunder from occurring in the future (hopefully). Those complaint forms are VERY effective at righting wrongs at the PO, in my experience.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
You must have never experienced small claims court. If you have a valid case you chance of winning the case are good. But forget about collecting. Virtually unforcable to get someone to pay unless you do more court actions, which all cost more money. Small claims court is a waste of time unless you seek $1000+.
Clause, Jadecoin, or anyone else that has a gripe with a coin related situation [including myself in this statement] should try to settle situations like this privately first, and I think Jade could have phrased his thread more politely then he did, but if a coin company and a buyer of a coin or a coin related service DOES try to settle it privately and gets nowhere, should they just go "oh well, thats the brakes in the coin bizz" and keep their mouths shut???
I got flamed "but good" for bringing a complaint I felt was legit to the forum after I tried with no success the direct approach, and low and behold I got results!!! To me, that spoke loader then anyone that bad mouthed me over it. I say bad transactions that aren't resolved in private should be exposed so that all can see and decide for themselves if they want to take action over it such as avoiding the sellers auctions or not trusting grading services to do their own homework on pedigree coins.
I for one want to know such information for my own benefit before I buy any product or service coin related. Good for you Clause!!!
Les
the price guide on a Torch MS70 coin pcgs is well over $2,850
dont you think it odd to buy it on ebay for only $600?
<< <i>thought I would add some more fuel to the fire
the price guide on a Torch MS70 coin pcgs is well over $2,850
dont you think it odd to buy it on ebay for only $600? >>
Hmmm! sometimes a bargain ain't a bargain? Or is it: There's no free lunches? I get mixed up on these.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
<< <i>the price guide on a Torch MS70 coin pcgs is well over $2,850
dont you think it odd to buy it on ebay for only $600? >>
The PCGS price guide?
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>my guess is that when that coin was graded, it didn't look like that >>
only if they were using ACG grading standards that day
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
We hear it over and over and over again on this Forum. Gosh, I bought a bad coin on e-bay. What should I do? DON'T BUY FROM THEM. Unless you know them or can ask around about them. E-Mail, check out return policies. I don't care whose holder it is in. This is the risk you take when buying sight unseen. The majority of these e-bay dealers are on the fringe. Most of them buy problem coins or at best marginal coins way back of sheet. So they list them and it looks like a good deal, someone will bite.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
I'm leaning heavily on that course of action. If the blemishes aren't metalurgical (bad planchet), they might be able to curate and reslab as MS70.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
~*Bugs*~