Do You think this Exhibit Judge was biased?

Newmismatist

I displayed my 1858-1863 Flying Eagle and Indian Head Cent Proof Patterns at Long Beach. This same exhibit won 1st place in the US Coins category at the Baltimore ANA. My Exhibit received The People's Choice Award at LB and I received a lot of nice compliments from those who looked at the exhibit, BUT interestingly it did not place in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd awards - One of the Judges gave the Exhibit ascore of 91/100 (consistent with the scores given by the 3 Judges at the Baltimore ANA), THe second Judge gave the exhibit a score of 100/100 - a perfect score, but the 3rd Judge gave this Exhibit a score of 64 and wrote this on his grading sheet: "Seeing slabed coins is a downer." Do you think this Judge downgraded the exhibit because my coins were in slabs?

(All of the 18 coins displayed are slabbed, and these rare patterns are virtually unobtainable unless slabbed by one of the major grading services. The grades are among the finest known and it would be difficult to duplicate this exhibit, if given 5 years to find the various coins, and impossible if the criteria were uncertified coins.)

braddick

I would add that although the Judges are supposed to be somewhat opinionated having a negative opinion where all others don't is biased.

Placid

"Seeing slabed coins is a downer."

Was it Dorkkarl?

wingedliberty

If he wrote "seeing slabbed coins is a downer" , then he is a closeminded uncivilized fool, and I will say that to his face. This is the most closed minded moronic comment I have ever witnessed from an exhibit judge. He should have evaluated the merits of your display based on the aesthetics of the coins, the historical context and presentation. This moronic fool should be disqualified as a future judge and I believe you have cause for action against him for such overt bias. He should be repremanded immediatly, he is a fool of extreme magnitude and does not belong anywhere near the hobby. I am furious that a judge would say that.

fcloud

Must be one of those raw collectors. LOL

MadMarty

<< <i>"Seeing slabed coins is a downer." >>



Dude, there was no doobies under the slabs, what a downer!

mgoodm3

Were the judge's initial possibly AH. They were not ACG

Nap

If he thinks seeing slabbed coins is a downer, what was he doing at a coin convention?!

Before the judge gets blasted, I should ask, did he make any other comments that would support his score? Or was the slabbed coins the only negative thing said and thus the only reason you received the score you did? Even if it sounds like BS, it is important to know if he had any other reason besides that the coins were in holders.

I have to say, seeing two of the five 1913 Liberty nickels at the Baltimore convention in slabs did not reduce my viewing pleasure at all! After all, in the end, it's about the coins, not the plastic.

Stuart

Nap: I completely agree with you.

Newmismatist: I'm sorry that you didn't win, and I'm even more sorry that you may have been the victimof a very closed minded individual.

Take WingedLiberty's advice and if you feel that you have a case, appeal the decision to the LB Show organizers or governing authorities.

And Good Luck with it.

Newmismatist

<< <i>Before the judge gets blasted, I should ask, did he make any other comments that would support his score? Or was the slabbed coins the only negative thing said and thus the only reason you received the score you did? Even if it sounds like BS, it is important to know if he had any other reason besides that the coins were in holders. >>



In answer to your question, no NOT specifically, but when looking at the score sheet, there were some unusual scores, completely inconsistent with any other judge who has ever scored this exhibit. For example, one of the judging items is "Completeness" Is the exhibit COMPLETE insofar as it relates to the theme or title of the exhibit? THis particular judge scored it as 9/15. 5 other judges have looked at thsi same exhibit & the average score is 14.8/15 - As this item can be objectively determined, it is hard to explain a virtual 100% score in this category from all other Judge's (including the 3 ANA judges in Baltimore) with this particular judge's 60% score. Kinda reminds me of how the judges scored the Olympic ice skating when the Canadian couple got 2nd place & the who world watch them win.

Most likely this was a "homeboy" judge - I may have been one of the few (maybe the only Exhibitor) who was not a local exhibitor

BTW, the 1st place winner had a very nice display - current US currency with nice explanations relating to the vignettes on the currency - it was well thought out, and informative. So my post is not that I should have won, its more of "How do explain a tremendous disparity between what this judge thought of my exhibit (ie 64/100 - or as any teacher will explain a "D") vs an average score of 5 other judges of almost 94/100". He significantly down-graded the exhibit in the area of "Originality and Arrangement" (10/15)- a purely subject area (he obviously didn't like the lack of originality - the coins were in slabs - not original - original coins must not be in slabs) - again an area that all other judges gave the exhibit consistently high scores (the other 2 judges scored this category as 15/15).

But to keep it in perspective, I enjoyed displaying the coins, its a neat exhibit, particularly if you like FE cents, IH cents, patterns and what the mint was doing between 1858 and 1863 to come up with a small cent that they could consistently produce in large quantities, and still look aethestically pleasing and be fully struck up without wearing out the dies too quickly. IF I knew how to do a web-page I'd put the text and the coins up for the forum members to see as its interesting if you enjoy patterns and FE cents & IH cents. THe skinny eagles,or as we like to affectionately call them - the flying chickens (J-202 through J-206) are particularly interesting to look at and we can be thankful that they were never adopted as our 1 cent coinage for 50 years. Unfortuantely, I'm still learning this computer stuff - so that's not in the near future - But much of the text of what was in my display is in an Article I wrote for the current Longacre Journal, so it probably will soon be available if anyone is interested in reading what the exhibit was about - many of the picures of the coins are available on Shylocks indiancents.org website - under the Patterns link.

Conder101

Sounds to me like the judge may have had ANA exihibit judge training. I'm sorry but under the catagory of attrativeness slabs are not a very attractive way to present coins and they wil often rate a deduction in the score. What was the title of the exhibit? "1858-1863 Flying Eagle and Indian Head Cent Proof Patterns "? If so, did you have ALL of them? If not, that could also result in a deduction for completeness. Did the judge also grade the other exhibits harshly or was he singling you out? Did you talk to the judge and get a better explaination of why he graded you the way he did?

BillF

I don't know for sure, but it sounds like this was your display. It sure is cool looking. Wish I could of seen it in person.

Display Cases

Patterns

wingedliberty

Conder101: "Slabs are not an attractive way to display coins", Why not??????

wingedliberty

Slabs offer an excellent way to preserve coins against the elements. It sure beats displaying them in 2x2 garbage with staples, like alot of greaseball slimy dealers do, who drip pizza sauce and rub staples back to back on coins. This judge is a biased idiot who should not go anywhere near a convention.

BigMoose

Newmismatist, I saw your exhibit at the ANA Convention in Baltimore. It was beautifully presented, as complete as possible, and told a nice story. You just happened to run into a douche bag of a judge at Long Beach. Look at it this way, at least your exhibit didn't suffer water damage from the flood!

maddogale

I'm sorry but under the catagory of attrativeness slabs are not a very attractive way to present coins and they wil often rate a deduction in the score

Maybe a deduction, but not the total annihilation of his score!!! Com'on Conder!!!!!! That guy was a d!ck.....plain and simple. Personally I like the CoinEdge holders for unslabbed coins, as they give a nice view of the coin's edge, but in the case of patterns, I can understand the hows and whys of their numbers being mostly in slabs. This bozo just had a personal bias, and IMHO didn't explain his reasons clearly enough. What a Putz!!

291fifth

You bet he downgraded your exhibit because it contained slabs. I'm sure your exhibit was excellent but the hobby continues to tolerate judges with anti-slab bias. Judges like this need to be given the boot. The net result of anti-slab bias in judging is going to be fewer and fewer competitive numismatic exhibits of any interest. All we will soon be seeing is variations on "My Susan B. Anthony Dollar".

sinin1

I would send copies of all 6 grading sheets to the organizer.


Write a nice letter saying you do not want to complain but you feel this 1 judge should not be judging for them in the future.

Mikey

I think the slabs are a distraction, especially if the coins all together present a beautiful image, like a set of toned coins. If they don't compliment each other then I don't see what the big deal is.

The comment is stupid, since when does a judge say 'downer'? Unless he's stoned.

Lakesammman

Seeing slabed coins is a downer

Would have to agree.....send them to me!!!

puff

<< <i>If he wrote "seeing slabbed coins is a downer" , then he is a closeminded uncivilized fool, and I will say that to his face. This is the most closed minded moronic comment I have ever witnessed from an exhibit judge. He should have evaluated the merits of your display based on the aesthetics of the coins, the historical context and presentation. This moronic fool should be disqualified as a future judge and I believe you have cause for action against him for such overt bias. He should be repremanded immediatly, he is a fool of extreme magnitude and does not belong anywhere near the hobby. I am furious that a judge would say that. >>



"Brian" you're my kinda guy!!!!! This judge was a complete "D!CKHEAD!!!

Draco

I'm wondering if he did the same for other displays at the convention. Obviously, the rarity of your collection transcends the grading company slabs, but I wonder if he'd have felt the same if the coins were in generic slabs like those offered in CoinWold?

abuell

Here is a link to the ANA exhibit rules. You definitely do have a valid cause for complaint. I would definitely bring this matter to the attention of the show promoter. link

Newmismatist

Sorry - duplicate post, some kinda glitch with the computer

Newmismatist

BillF: - Yes your link is the pattern set that I displayed at Baltimore - that's the exhibit & the coins on Shylock's website are mostly mine, but also some of Lakesammman's patterns also - (he also has a killer pattern set) My set was displayed slightly differently at LB because I added a couple of new coins - there are a number of sub-varieties in the set - For example, the IH patterns have 2 bust styles - a rounded bust and a pointed bust, so these 4 patterns (J-208, J-211, J-212 & J-213) each have 2 obverse styles, which are listed in Pollack, but not Judd.

Condor101: The exhibit title Was: The Transitional Years - Flying Eagle and Indian Head Cent Patterns 1858 Through 1863, and as far as completeness, every transitional pattern for that period is part of the display, so the Exhibit is 100% complete based on what the Exhibit is intended to show; it ALSO shows ALL of the other varieties of the patterns during that period, including the 2 reverses that were never adopted for regular use: The plain oak wreath, and the oak wreath with ornamental shield, plus the unusual Paquet designed "skinny flying eagle" (looks more like a flying chicken), and as part of the exhibit were the reeded edge cents (J-300, in both Proof and Mint State, displayed so that you can actually see the reeded edges (Special inserts in the slaps so the reeded edges can be seen and with close up pictures of the reeded edges (courtesy of Shylock).

Lakesammman: - you want 'em raw or slabbed? - I'm buying a set of crackers so I can display them at FUN "naked"! Of course they can't be tilted so you can actually see the coins (well I could glue them onto some cardboard - that might help!) & if someone bumps the case they'll be all over the place - putting them in & out will result in fingerprints, spots, etc & then I'll have to do what King Farouk did - polish 'em up with a little brasso so they look all bright & shiny just like they did when they were made - you know - very "original" looking. (Years ago, they actually did this at the Smithsonian - see pages 20-21 in the new Judd pattern Book - it also discusses King Farouk & his cleaning methods)

Anyway, I'm not going to write the LB coin club re this issue because I don't really care what the Long Beach Coin club does with regard to that particular Judge (I showed the exhibit chairman the 3 score sheets and he just shook his head in amazement, I also mentioned that in addition to being way out of whack with the other 2 LB judges he was also out of whack w/the 3 ANA judges who gave this exhibit very high scores) - When I spoke with the Exhibit chairman before the LB show, he was delighted to have the exhibit displayed, so were the people who viewed it as were they other judges (a 100/100 score does somewhat indicate the real quality of this exhibit) - the 1st place Baltimore ANA Ribbon says it all - why let one very closed minded person (who obviously has NO concept of how difficult it is to acquire these coins in the condition displayed (Pr64 - Pr66Cam) and apparently doesn't understand that they would never be shown to the public UNLESS in their slabs (IF nothing else to protect them from damage).

Is he biased? Probably.
Is he an astute collector or numismatist? - only if he collects raw state quarters or Sac dollars - he's probably removing all his proof coins from the mint sealed plastic holders as I write this - after all slabs, whether from the US Mint or TP grading services "are a real downer"
Should he ever be allowed to Judge any exhibits at a major coin show? Not until he learns a little bit about coins, patterns, quality and numismatics.
(But, that's just MHO).

Did I have fun collecting these coins for the past 10 years & letting others see a very rare, high grade group of very interesting patterns? You betcha!

If anyone would like to read the information that accompanied the display I can post it - but its somewhat long - (2 pages of single spaced text)

billboat

<< <i>If he wrote "seeing slabbed coins is a downer" , then he is a closeminded uncivilized fool, and I will say that to his face. This is the most closed minded moronic comment I have ever witnessed from an exhibit judge. He should have evaluated the merits of your display based on the aesthetics of the coins, the historical context and presentation. This moronic fool should be disqualified as a future judge and I believe you have cause for action against him for such overt bias. He should be repremanded immediatly, he is a fool of extreme magnitude and does not belong anywhere near the hobby. I am furious that a judge would say that. >>



I agree--but wish you would stop mincing words and tell us what you really think!

Mark

Newmismatist:


I agree with 99% of what you write, especially your statement "Should he ever be allowed to Judge any exhibits at a major coin show? Not until he learns a little bit about coins, patterns, quality and numismatics." This statement, however, is exactly why you should complain to the LB organizers, so I disagree with the 1% of message that you don't care what happens at LB. I, too, don't give a rat's rump what happens at LB. But unless someone sees complaints against this person, he or she will continue on as a judge. And, who knows where he or she may next surface...possibly the next ANA or where ever. Because I think there should be zero tolerance for someone who allows his or her biases (or ignorance) to so strongly affect the judging, I think you should make an effort to try have this person's record examined.

I look forward with GREAT eagerness to see your exhibit at FUN. I have several of these IHC patterns and so I really want to see what you have put together. I look at this as great fun to come!!

Mark

stujoe

[q"Slabs are not an attractive way to display coins", Why not?????? >>



I think this is the display:

http://www.flyinclub.org/FEDisplayANASirna.html

First off, I am not saying he does not have an attractive display. I think he does. Very nice, in fact.

However, I do think that the display would be improved (in looks) by having all the same type of holders and, truthfully, look better if they were in Eagles or something similar. Slabs are a great storage medium for protection but I don't think they are very attractive either. I think they often overwhelm the coin especially when it is a small coin. Personal taste I guess.

I wouldn't crack mine out and put them in Eagles (or kointains or something else) for an exhibit either but I do think it would be more attractive and uniform.

Newmismatist

<< <i>I do think that the display would be improved (in looks) by having all the same type of holders >>



Wellll - the problem is crossing between PCGS & NGC & vice versa - I subscribe to the buy the coin, not the plastic, so if it's a nice coin it doesn't matter to me whether it's one or the other, just so it's nice. What I did do was change the exhibit so it didn't look quite so "cluttered" - a suggestion from one of the ANA judges who, I might add was very helpful and gave me constructive comments re my exhibit. I also added a bibliography because I lost points on that issue & it may have cost me best of show at the ANA. I was also told that I should mount the explanations for each coin on a different color paper so it looks like a border & hence more attractive, something I haven't had time to do because I had to re-print all the descriptions & the photos because I had to leave Baltimore early (My daughter gave birth to a baby boy on Aug 1st & going to see our first grandchild was a little more important to my wife than my exhibit - go figure) so Rick Kay was kind enough to take my entire display with him & then ship it back to me (Rick, thank you very much so here's a shameless plug - buy patterns from patterns.com) Shameless plug link but the photos & text got lost or left as I told Rick the important thing was the slabbed coins! - So to do the exhibit again everything had to be re-done, which is very time consuming

I agree that the exhibit could be improved aesthetically, & if I could figure out a way to show the backs of the coins it would be even better as the "charm" of these patterns is the obv/rev combinations - I've tried to come up with a type of raised slab holder w/a mirror so the obv & rev of each coin can be seen - but the depth of the case limits this & there's enough problems just getting the coins safely to the show, far less 20 or so complicated display holders - so I settled for a low tech solution - pink pearl erasers that raise the coins for easy viewing & on those that I have duplicates displaying both obv & reverse using 2 coins.

As far as writing to the LB coin club, not gonna do it! this is a hobby for me - its fun, I enjoy it, I love collecting coins & sharing what I've learned (& learning from others). SO trying to tell the LB coin club how to run their club's not something I care to get involved in. Besides, they know how I feel about it - I told them that that particular judge was the only one going the wrong way on a one way street. IF they choose not to use him or her again that's their choice - I'm not a member of the LB Coin club (2000 miles to go to a meeting's a little tough) & how they choose to deal with this issue is not something that is important to me.

I'm familiar w/the rules & there's a lot of scoring that's very subjective - so on any given day a display of a complete set of SBA's could be the 1st place winner & best of show in a given venue - What upset me is this judge both implied and scored my exhibit as if it were a "BAD" exhibit - On that, he's way off base & his comment shows him to be a very narrow minded fool, and that's they nicest thing I can say about that issue. Judge's are supposed to objectively assess an exhibit, its content & the other criteria listed on the judging sheet. When one person gives 6/10 across the board & 5 others give 9/10 across the board, its not difficult to figure out who's the stupid one.

Besides, all in all, I was verrry relieved that my exhibit wasn't washed away in the flood - I'm not particularly interested in finding out if the plastic slabs are water tight.

stujoe

<< <i>Wellll - the problem is crossing between PCGS & NGC & vice versa - I subscribe to the buy the coin, not the plastic, so if it's a nice coin it doesn't matter to me whether it's one or the other, just so it's nice. >>



I absolutely agree from a buying standpoint but still think displaying (exhibiting) is a different matter. Except for slabs, most collectors I know will take a coin for their collection out of the holder it is bought in to put it in their uniform holder of choice for their sets. Storing in albums and the like are a similar situation. A well matched set of holders, like a well matched set of coins, improves the display.

Like I said, there probably isn't much you can do about it and I wouldn't crack them or cross them for an exhibit but uniformity does make for a better display (my opinion, of course).

Merc

Sorry to hear about the judge. I would be very angry. I made my first display at the FUN show this year. I had 16 slabbed coins in the exhibit. I gave each one and identicle background with a white backing and red trim. This helped to give each slab an identicle look even though I had NGC and PCGS slabs. Overall, I was given a high score (2nd place US coins) and was not penalized for the slabs.

zenny

If the misguided judge isn't Dorkkarl, may I suggest it is either Harold Lederman, George Foreman or Jim Lampley?

lordmarcovan

I wonder if sewing coins on a vest is an acceptable method of display, and what an exhibit judge would have to say about that...

Lakesammman

Newmy:

I was BBQ'ing in the beautiful Seattle weather we've been enjoying and it hit me - you need a baby rotiseree to rotate the coins either continuously or on a 20 second schedule. Know any good patent attorneys??

Newmismatist

<< <i>I was BBQ'ing in the beautiful Seattle weather we've been enjoying and it hit me - you need a baby rotiseree to rotate the coins either continuously or on a 20 second schedule. Know any good patent attorneys?? >>



Lakesammman - you know for a guy who spends all day lookin at black & white negatives you've got some real moxie! I bet I could use some of those wind up rubber bands that we used to use on those little airplanes that we got as kids - I'm gonna leave the propane tank home though - got enough gas already from one of the judge's

njcoincrank

I am sorry to hear such a story regarding an exhibit. While most judges are very qualified, there is always the exception. I judged some exhibits many years ago, and from the sound of your thread I would say you got shafted. While you may not want to make waves over this, might I suggest trying to get this judge removed for the benefit of future exhibitor. John Eshbach teaches a class at the summer seminar on exhibiting. He would be a perfect person to run this story by. He can be reached via the ANA in Colorado Springs.

Again, sorry for your experience.

njcoincrank

Zenny...you a fan?

Conder101

Thanks Stujoe you got the essence of my meaning about the lack of asthetics from the slabs perfectly.

I have also seen several comments in the thread about how difficult it is to put such a display together and how the judge must not appreciate the rarity of the patterns. That is something the text of the exhibit should bring out. Also rarity is only worth a maximum of five points out of the 100 and in order to get the fifth point it must contain at least one unique item and it or they they must be pointed out in the text. A 1913 V Nickel could only get a 4 points for rarity. So unless there is a Unique item in this exhibit there is no way it should have gotten a 100/100 score from any of the judges.

Since asthetics and numismatic information make up the bulk of the scoring points, it sounds like he hit you hard for the use of slabs and for the mixing of different companies and types. (I see what appear to be three companies and possibly four varieties of slab.) I think if you do continue using the slabs you might want to try using something to highlight them a little more rather than just having them on the background material. (looks a little amaturish, or should I say not "slick professional") On the other hand I do like the use of the erasers to tip the slabs, but they should not protrude out beyond the slabs themselves. At that point you run the risk of them beoming a distraction.