Grading coins from online pictures.

keets

There has often been discussion directed at the topic of grading coins here at the forum from posted pictures. While some may disagree, I feel there is a certain validity to what can be offered in such a manner. First, though, I think it's important to concede that if someone starts a thread asking for a grade opinion, they are probably offering us as close to a true representation of the subject coin as possible. This infers that color is accurate and not adjusted in any way, lighting has been used to show the luster as it appears and the coin is shown either raw or through clean plastic which doesn't show scratches. These are sensible concessions if someone is seeking help.

I offer the following example only to start the discussion.



Several weeks ago I posted this coin in a thread asking for a grade opinion. The majority seemed to view it as MS63-MS64 with an outside shot at MS65. At the Baltimore ANA, I showed the coin to perhaps 15 people ranging from board members with a general knowledge of coins to a few members and dealers with a specific knowledge of the series, and even to HRH at the PCGS counter. Almost to a person they thought MS63-MS64 with an outside shot at MS65.

Coincidence, perhaps. I'll add that i feel the coin is better "in Hand" than the picture shows, but my point is that if a collector strives to show an accurate image online, an accurate opinion can be attained.

Any thoughts on the topic? Thanks.

Al H.

edited to replace the word "scan" with the proper word "picture"as suggested by coppercoins. I sometimes use the two words interchangeably.

ksteelheader

I totally agree with your well thought out expression....Ken...

coppercoins

On only one point do I disagree somewhat. You said "scans" which automatically infers a scanner, not a digital camera, in which case it would be a "photo" not a "scan". I am with the confident opinion that coins cannot be shown accurately for grading using a scanner. The direction of lighting is often way off for such determination to be made from an image. It is unidirectional, washes the luster out of the coin, leaves the coin darker in front while white washing the sides of the devices, and is generally and overall much less qualifying for the job than a digital camera and a little practice with lighting. Other than that, I agree.

LucyBop

I am in the camp that believes it is diffulcult to grade by a scan. The Luster and eye appeal of a coin is rarely captured in photos.... and if its a proof, its impossible to tell the level of contrast/black and white fade out and how many hairlines the coin may have.... On mint state coins depending on the angle of photo some distractions can be hidden.....

with that said, I still think a general assessment can be made from a scan or photo.... Obvious huge dings/hits can be spotted and usually wear on the high points can be spotted.........

I think the grade me threads or give me your opinion threads can be very helpful... But everyone must remember we are grading from a scan and even if we all had the actual coin many would disagree with each other....

Fairlaneman

Along with a picture if the person showing the coin would comment on the Luster and if the coin has any Hairlines I believe many folks here would come very close to what the coin grades. One thing is a must though. The coin must be shot straight on just as Keets Buffalo is.

Ken

mdwoods

What Fairlaneman said about the luster. Then you can come close.

CarlWohlforth

I have learned tons from looking at images of coins. However I have also bought and returned coins based on digital images that totally fooled me. If the photographer strives for an accurate representation of the coin I believe one can get a pretty good idea of what the coin will look like in hand.

Thanks for continuing to post interesting threads Keets!

keets

i didn't want to edit my post again as i did in response to what coppercoins said, but Lucille makes a good point about hairlines on proof coins. perhaps i should add a disclaimer that digital pictures are really only helpful and accurate----from my viewpoint----regarding Mint State coins. with proof coins, as she so aptly pointed out, hairline detection is tricky. others, Russ in particular, have posted of how they can be hidden by taking the picture at a slight angle. taking a picture straight on simply won't reveal them and they are often hard to see even with the coin in hand. another point are resident Bopster makes which i agree with is the revelation a good, enlarged picture can make in the area of contacts and rub. many times i have taken pictures and with the much larger image on the screen i can see the tiny ticks that the lighting reveals or be certain that a toned area is actually slight rub.

i guess for me a good picture can be a helpful aid. certainly not a primary purchasing tool, coin in hand is always best, but definitely a help in evaluating, especially detail that my older eyes have difficulty seeing.

al h.

Shamika

Proofs are nearly impossible to judge via pictures, but I've rarely been disappointed by business strikes purchased this way.

IrishMike

Luster could and should make a big difference in the grade and it is very difficult to capture true luster with a scanner or digital camera. In hand the first thing I do is to tilt and rotate the coin to get a feel for its luster and hairlines. Obviously you can't do that with a photo.

I agree that the vast majority who solicit grade opinions do so honestly. I have quit giving out opinions because lately it seems that someones honest opinion becomes the subject of one or two posters ridicule, witness Marty's half. If the coin appears less attractive than it is in person then expect honest replies or don't post it. Criticizing someone's opinion in here has become a full time job for some of you and I for one am sick of it. Sorry if I hijacked your thread keets.

BillJones

Hi Keets. Your coin looks like an MS-64 to me. Nice color, not serious spots, good eye appeal. Slabbed MS-63 Buffalos are usually pretty ugly IMO. They often have lots of fly specs, marks and less than top drawer strikes.

As for photos and grading, I'll say this.

- It's easier to grade circulated coins that pin point the MS grades.
- It's impossible to pin point a high MS grade (MS-65 and higher) because there are factors that can only be ascertained live on such coins.
- It’s easier to determine if a coin has a big problem from photos than to say with certainty that it is outstanding.

Some people of written here that grades from photos are useless. I’ll take issue with that. We can help less experienced collectors here to a point, but we can’t pin point grades like the difference between MS-66 and MS-67. That’s got to be done live, and even then honest people can disagree.