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Critical article in Wall Street Journal about 9-11 "death coins"
Mark
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There is a critical article on page C1 of today's Wall Street Journal about the encapsulated 9-11 so-called "death coins." The heading gives the thrust of the article" "'Sept 11' Coins Carry Hefty Markups and Heavy Baggage." The second sentence also has the same general thrust: "But the price markups being charged and the use of packaging with a 'Sept. 11' theme have some coin experts cringing."
Scott Travers is quoted as saying "It's morbid, disgusting and shocks the sense that any individual or corporation could capitalize on the Sept. 11 tragedy in this horrid way." On the other hand, Mark Renstrom, a salesman of the coins at Preferred Customer Club (as an aside, has anyone heard of this outfit?) says "There may not be a coin that has as much history as these do."
The article says that people in the coin industry said Lee S. Minshull of Lee Minshull Rare Coins Inc. in Palos Verdes, Calif., was behind the purchase of the raw coins from the initial owner, Bank of Nova Scotia. The bank sold the coins for $560,118 and donated the full amount to 20 charities.
The article noted that the coins were slabbed by PCGS and there is a picture of a coin in a PCGS slab. Mike Sherman of PCGS said "A submitter brought the deal and requested the pedigree." He said about 100,000 coins were submitted and the slabbing was discounted because of the large number. Mr. Sherman said "What's the alternative? Bury them in [the] ground or destroy them?"
Mark
Scott Travers is quoted as saying "It's morbid, disgusting and shocks the sense that any individual or corporation could capitalize on the Sept. 11 tragedy in this horrid way." On the other hand, Mark Renstrom, a salesman of the coins at Preferred Customer Club (as an aside, has anyone heard of this outfit?) says "There may not be a coin that has as much history as these do."
The article says that people in the coin industry said Lee S. Minshull of Lee Minshull Rare Coins Inc. in Palos Verdes, Calif., was behind the purchase of the raw coins from the initial owner, Bank of Nova Scotia. The bank sold the coins for $560,118 and donated the full amount to 20 charities.
The article noted that the coins were slabbed by PCGS and there is a picture of a coin in a PCGS slab. Mike Sherman of PCGS said "A submitter brought the deal and requested the pedigree." He said about 100,000 coins were submitted and the slabbing was discounted because of the large number. Mr. Sherman said "What's the alternative? Bury them in [the] ground or destroy them?"
Mark
Mark
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The "alternative" would have been to return them to circulation. Why would anyone want to celebrate such a despicable act of terrorism by claiming ownership of such a slab?
Edited to add: How much of their slabbing fee did PCGS contribute to the victims of this act of terrorism, or did they just profit from it?
Just my opinion, Jim
The only problem is the coins in question were never circulating coins and were coins sold to collectors in the first place.
NoGvmnt: Perhaps PCGS did profit from the slabbing of those death coins. But PCGS and a few wonderful PCGS board members also facilitated the slabbing of the limited edition special NY State quarters that were sold to PCGS members and ALL the proceeds went to WTC victims!!
09/07/2006
How much of that flag money went to charity? I will never forget 911, I get reminded everytime I look at Miss Liberty in my hand, LIBERTY SURVIVED! WAKE UP PEOPLE!
I just don't think these coins should have been slabbed. Why didn't the World Trade Center and Port Authority take the steel from the building and market little pieces of it as a memorial, maybe little Twin Towers made from the rubble with a "We Will Not Forget" motto on it. Those would have sold as well. It would just be in bad taste.
I assume those who did profit from the death slabs, probably had no connection to anyone who perished, the buildings themselves or the City of New York. It appears that the deal involved Californians profitting from the despair on New Yorkers.
I grew up in the shadow of these buildings. I visited them and had some contact with people that worked in the Financial District and Wall Street. It's a shame that these coins are in slabs and people pay high value for them.
Why don't we go find some coins from the USS Arizona and start slabbing them?
And yes, comicdebris, this is different. One is an accident and one is a act of war. Salvage from long sunken ships is reasonable and is an accepted practice. Looting, while a strong term, a grave site is not.
There's a saying -- "Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should."
Just my 2 cents,
Michael
I hate it when you see my post before I can edit the spelling.
Always looking for nice type coins
my local dealer
I have a few deals in mind will they pedigree those too?
What some are missing is the coins are not only associated with death but with an act of terrorism. Very different than dying due to natural causes, acts of nature, etc.
A few years ago Fleer came out with a line of "collectible" cards depicting famous serial murders, rapists, crimminals, etc. After much to do, they quietly stopped.
I feel give the people what they want at the risk of offending the sensibilities of others. I would never buy the coins but would not object for others to do so. It just seems odd to me anyone would want something like that. I know a friend who scavenged a piece of rebar and had it put into lucite for a paperweight. Weird! I have kids pictures in lucite.
I want positive memories not negative ones.
I thought about buying one of the WTC coins ( after all I do have one of the 911 quarters and did take a very active part in them ) just for history's sake and a remembrance of 911.
But all the WTC coins I saw for sale were for profit with very little if any of the money going towards charity. The 911 quarters all money went for charity.
The 1857 coins were beyond going for charity and after almost 150 years were merely considered buried treasure without consideration for the lives lost.
09/07/2006
You don't think salvaging the Titanic is robbing a grave site? You don't think scouring those Civil War battlefields is robbing a grave site? If you go scuba diving in Hawaii and find an old St. Gauden's piece on the ocean floor that may have gotten there from the Pearl Harbor disaster that someone simply held onto, are you going to leave it on the ocean floor or take it? You'll probably take it. Pearl Harbor WAS an act of war, no different than 9/11 but it's suddenly okay to collect those artifacts (while many Pearl Harbor survivors are still alive) but it's not okay to hold onto something from 9/11..hmmm
I can't remember the precise figure but it was well into the hundreds of millions of dollars that the salvagers of the S.S. Central America made off those coins. They are relics of our nation's great history. In my view they belong in the people's hands so the past can live on. What better way to teach a child about the disaster of the Central America than putting an original coin in his hand that was on that ship? I believe we have to look at this with a different attitude. Something left on the ocean floor for eternity cannot be appreciated. It is through us, the people, that the past lives on and we can't do that without any artifacts to share.....
I've never heard of this. Is PCGS slabbing Pearl Harbor death coins, too?
Obscurum per obscurius
Didn't say PCGS was slabbing them. I didn't know collecting them required them to be slabbed by PCGS. But yes, to answer your question I have seen them for sale, not in PCGS holders though.
Similarly, I have no beef with the people who sell those disgusting White Castle hamburgers.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>I'm disgusted by the fact that people want and will pay for "death coins", but I don't blame PCGS and coin dealers for giving people what they want.
Similarly, I have no beef with the people who sell those disgusting White Castle hamburgers. >>
Well said. I guess there are those who'd buy coins recovered from Jeffrey Dahmer's victims if PCGS would slab them. I'd never heard of the Pearl Harbor death coins, but I think they're in bad taste, too. I guess I should go metal detecting next time I go to Hiroshima so I can find melted coins from when people in Kamiya-cho got vaporized.
Obscurum per obscurius
<< <i>The article noted that the coins were slabbed by PCGS and there is a picture of a coin in a PCGS slab. Mike Sherman of PCGS said "A submitter brought the deal and requested the pedigree." He said about 100,000 coins were submitted and the slabbing was discounted because of the large number. Mr. Sherman said "What's the alternative? Bury them in [the] ground or destroy them?" >>
No Mr. Sherman the alternative is to tell the submitter that you will not profit off this terrible terrorist act and that if he would like to have them holdered by PCGS that he may but you will not place a special pedigree on the label.
It was a tiny amount of money being donated to charity by the seller from the sale of these pedigreed coins. I did not hear of PCGS donating any of their discounted service fee for these coins.
The coins are not popular any more you can find the foreign ones in dealer junk boxes.
Big Mike <><
Let your roots grow down into him and draw up nourishment from him, so you will grow in faith, strong and vigorous in the truth you were taught. Let your lives overflow with thanksgiving for all that he has done. --Colossians 2:7
<< <i>Just to clarify (and get back on topic) are we talking about the ASE's from the vault in one of the towers that were all over ebay several months back or are we talking random coins salvaged from the rubble? >>
They are the ASE's as well as the gold eagles and foreign silver and gold coins and other bullion based coins. These were not coins from the rubble and in fact these coins weren't even that close to the actual twin towers.
Bigern
<< <i>ohbaby - tell us about some of your ideas - how about the danglingballs hoard? >>
Big Mike <><
Let your roots grow down into him and draw up nourishment from him, so you will grow in faith, strong and vigorous in the truth you were taught. Let your lives overflow with thanksgiving for all that he has done. --Colossians 2:7
<< <i>People collect nazi germany coins. It is history. What do you have to say about them? >>
I don't see a problem with buying coins issued by the Nazis, Stalin's regime, or any other nasty people. I would not buy a coin just because it was found in an Auschwitz oven, though.
The only thing that puts a premium on these coins is where they were found, not who issued them. If no one knew where they came from, they would be as any other coins. The fascination over thousands getting killed in the WTC attack is the only thing giving these coins a premium. How sick.
Obscurum per obscurius
Probably not a fair analogy. The SSCA premium derives from the coins' tie to the gold rush and to the excitement of rediscovery, less to the disaster in which the coins were lost.
On the other hand, coins recovered from the wreck of the Titanic or the ruins of Pompei would undoubtedly sell at substantial disaster premiums. Maybe disaster premiums aren't that sick after all?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i> don't see a problem with buying coins issued by the Nazis, Stalin's regime, or any other nasty people. I would not buy a coin just because it was found in an Auschwitz oven, though. >>
Bravo!
If that's having a coin slab that says "9/11", fine.
-Khayse
Taking your position into consideration, should we slab coins that were taken from dead Iraqui soldiers and sell them as victory coins? Should we slab coins taken from the bodies of all murder victims and sell them as momentos? I bet the friends and family members of those victims would just be thrilled to be revictimized every time they see or hear of one of those coins being sold/resold.
I'm not from the New Your area and I have no direct connection to those souls that perished because of those dispicable acts, but I'll tell you this, I would never purchase one of those socalled "death coins", EVER, and come to think about it, I don't think I would ever again patronize any dealer that would sell/profit from such a "piece of history".
Jim
In my opinion, the only correct action would have been to melt them all down and remix them with virgin metal for reprocessing.
That was actually very well said and I will step down from commenting about other historical coins. I do, however, feel that if someone wants to own one, they may and should be able to do so. I think it's more about remembering the event and being able to share it with someone down the road than anything. If it's used for devious purposes then I do agree with you. These coins were not taken from someone's body, they were taken out of a vault that was there far before the tragedy ever happened. Indeed they are selling now because of the event but it is far different than these analogies of taking coins from Jeffrey Dahmer's victims, it simply is not the same thing.
-Brian
<< <i> I think it's more about remembering the event and being able to share it with someone down the road than anything >>
Buy a book about 9/11 then.
Michael
So you have no problem with an author profiting off 9/11 by writing a book but you do have a problem with a company selling coins that were salvaged from a vault within the WTC? Or would this only be wrong if the Author used paper that was salvaged from the site? A book collector can buy a book on 9/11, a coin collector can buy a coin. What's so terribly wrong with it? The '33 Double Eagle was held in the WTC for a time, should that coin be off limits because it was on sacred ground? Or is that one okay simply because it wasn't there the day the towers fell? Would the '33 Double Eagle be considered off limits to you if it actually did remain in the WTC the day it fell? Or is there going to be another rhetorical statement saying that the '33 Double Eagle is already legitimately rare and the tragedy has nothing to do with the value of the coin. Okay then, fine by me. But how is a company to blame if they list one of these Silver coins from the site on eBay and someone wants to bid up $200 on it? Is the company going to say no, we only want $20 for it? If you say the company shouldn't be selling it to begin with, then should the Double Eagle be sold if it was there the day the events happened? Just questions, no matter how trivial they may be.
It would be quite a different matter if the 1933 double eagle were a common 1904 and sold at a huge premium as a death coin. Its value has nothing to do with the WTC attack, and no one is marketing it as a WTC memento.
I don't care if all the coins in vaults below the WTC are sold-- I simply object to them being sold at a premium because of the attack on the WTC. Why not just put them in ordinary slabs or sell them raw?
Obscurum per obscurius
<< <i>The nazi era issued coins has any relevance to this issue, which is A MASS OF AMERICAN AND FOREIGN CITIZENS WERE MURDERED AT THE LOCATION WHERE THESE COINS WERE RECOVERED, they are now forever tainted! >>
What about the coins I have from the Lodz getto in Poland or the paper currency I have that was used in the deathcamps?
That's what's great about America -- capitalism and freedom of choice. Hey while you're at it, pick up some of those John Wayne Gacy drawings as well.
Michael
other was a mass murder. When people go to sea they understand there are risks, when you go to work you don't generally
consider that someone may fly a plane into your building. I have no Death Coins and would never own one, but to each
their own.
Everything is linear if plotted log-log with a fat magic marker
As for those who feel the need to show "support" I just don't get it. If you really wanted to help why not just donate cash or if you have no money donate blood?
Obscurum per obscurius
As an aside, I think a discussion of these coins is slightly less likely to change anyone's mind than a discussion of religion or abortion.
BC
Nobody said the owners can't sell them. The point is that they shouldn't promote their connection to the murder of thousands of Americans to charge a premium.
Obscurum per obscurius
To "outlaw" them would take away from the postive memory of those who have passed to defend our liberties and freedoms.
Let the free marketplace prevail. If enough people/collectors agree with the overall attitude of the contributors of this Thread the premium for these 911 coins will plummet and crash.
peacockcoins
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