Is this thread aimed at the Whipping Boy, or all the plastic collectors?
.....GOD
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
About three years ago. I was showing my existing coins to a dealer and he said about half of them had problems, i.e. cleaning. When ever my wife or someone else would buy me coins for Christmas or my birthday, the coin dealer would never disclose that there were problems. My in-laws would buy me a 1909-s-vdb for Christmas and the coin had been recolored. They don't collect coins, and the dealer said the coins were "sight-seen" so there was no obligation to disclose any problems. Too many of my coins were graded significantly lower then what the dealer said they were. Now I collect only PCGS slabs and tell folks who want to buy me presents to go only for PCGS slabs. Much lower chance of getting a problem coin.
I collect slabs whenever I venture into a coin series that I am not throughly familiar with its grading. Raw coins are fine, sight seen in the series with which I am very familiar. As I might only buy one or two of those coins (that I'm not extremely familiar with the series) in a decade; the second opinion and authentication from the respected slab company provides value in making my purchase decision. And, since the coins I buy that are not in my area of expertise are not five-figure coins....there is plently of supply for me in slabs.
And, since I collect primarily for the joy of collecting; a few percentage points higher for being in a slab gives me comfort. Becasue, I know all the things that folks can and do miss when buying raw coins in the series with which I specialize. I don't wish to make the same mistakes they make in the series in which I do not specialize.
Let me begin by saying, I fully understand and respect the opinions of the board members that don't like plastic. I started collecting slabs when I got back into the hobby late last year after a 20 year hiatus (I stopped at 13). As a 13 year old, my grading skills were probably average for someone my age in the early '80s, especially for someone collecting Lincolns, Kennedys, and other 20th common century coins. As an adult, I have been trying to improve my grading skills, but want to start building a nice collection as I am learning. I agree with JoyofCollecting, the grading services offer some reassurance and guidelines, which I find helpful right now. Perhaps someday, I will be able to spot the ATs and the cleaned and the counterfeits, without any problem, but for now, I appreciate the opinion of the more respected grading services. Brian
I have a few different slabs but only because at the time they contained a coin I wanted. I am not really a slab collector but have some older ones from company's no longer in business. I bought my first coin that was in a slab in 1988.
Because no one, other than a seasoned Grader- one who has been dealing with millions of dollars worth of Numismatic items and has handled tens of thousands coins- handling his profession ten hours a day, six or seven days a week, living out of a suitcase from show to show with attitude and an extra 40 pounds under his belt, is qualified and able to render a decision my coin is PO01 or not.
Strat (board member) introduced me to the PCGS slab at the 2000 CSNA convention. I bought a 1990's Half dollar in PCGS 69DCAM and loved it. Since that time, I found the message boards and began collecting coins already slabbed.
Then last year, Conder101 piqued my interest with his posts on old slabs. I got into it more and more and when the slab book finally came in the mail I was totally hooked. Now I like to specialize in sample slabs and the rest is history.
when the 1st slabs came out. in fact, i was 1 of the biggest proponents of slabs - at the beginning.
if you count the old ANA photo-cert's, i started out w/ those too, when they 1st came out.
early on, i thought slabs were the miracle product of the century, more valuable then the cure for the common cold. i really thought it might revolutionize the coin hobby. now, i know better.
(although i am a very strong supporter of 3pg - 3d party grading)
Mid 1999 when I started actively researching the varieties that have been produced. Before that I would not touch slabs with a ten foot pole. When I'm looking for coins for my collection, I still won't touch them. To me there are slab varieties, and there are coins. Coins in slabs do not exist as far as I am concerned.
I won't pretend I don't see some serious problems with all the crack out upgrades going on, but I still feel that the major third party grading services perform a valuable service. Authentification, as well as some moderate level of liquidety in the marketplace. I also like having my coins in the slabs for protection. But I choose a coin raw or slabbed because I like it, not because of a grading service, not even if a dealer says a coin is "PQ".
I don't agree with saying buy the coin, not the holder entirely. I say buy the coin and get it holdered. Nothing wrong with a little corroberation.
If the collecting public had not felt the need for such a service PCGS would not be here after 17 years.
What ever the problems with pcgs or ngc, I remember what it was like in the 70's and early 80's as far as coin grading and dealers not standing behind the grades of the coins they sell, It is far better today then it was then. That does not mean I don't think there is room for improvment though.
Les
The President claims he didn't lie about taxes for those earning less then $250,000 a year with public mandated health insurance yet his own justice department has said they will use the right of the government to tax when the states appeals go to court.
How and why? Back to mid 80's, I bought some gold coins (all marked MS60 to MS62) from a Northern California dealer (I believe he is a mayor or a vice mayor in a small town in the Northern California) in Long Beach show. At the time, I was a young kid to the gold coins and did not have too much idea about AU and BU. Several years later, I show the coins to ANACS graders in a large coin show, they told me that all coins were sliders. I sent the coins to PCGS about a month later, they all came back between AU50 to AU55. From that on (1991), I only bought slab coins unless the series that I understand very well, the standing liberty quarters.
You all drive me crazy with that "I don't collect slabs, I collect coins" crap. The bottom line is this, unless you all plan on being burried with your coins, someday every coin all of you own is going to get sold. This will either happen by you or a relative (or executor) of yours. Would you rather that you or they sell slabbed coins or raw coins? Oh, sure one raw coin in a hundred will bring in the correct value regardless of certification, but what about the other 99?
If you only buy raw coins, as compared to only buying slabbed coins, you will be burned more often. No one can argue with that.
I started collecting only slabbed coins when I got tired of getting burned by dealers who weren't exactly honest. My skills as a grader are improving, but there are still some coins that PCGS will body bag that I submit for grading. Why should I go through the hassle? If I only buy PCGS-slabbed coins, I have fewer worries. Note that I did not say "no worries", I said "fewer worries". That is OK with me.
<< <i>You all drive me crazy with that "I don't collect slabs, I collect coins" crap. The bottom line is this, unless you all plan on being burried with your coins, someday every coin all of you own is going to get sold. >>
so what? after your dead, what the he11 do you care? REST IN PEACE!
<< <i>Would you rather that you or they sell slabbed coins or raw coins? >>
Frankly I'll be dead and I really couldn't care less what my heirs get for them. I'd actually prefer that they continue collecting. i might not even leave them to my family and will them to some other collector who will appreciate them. Just came up with another idea. Leave them to a coin club with the stipulation that they be packaged up individually in anonymous grab bags and handed out randomly to YN's coming to the local show, one per person until they are all gone. The Conder tokens alone should last for ten years. or less depending on how long it takes for word to get out that every YN is being given a coin worth anywhere from twenty to three hundred dollars for free. I kind of like that idea.
Some coins you cannot ever find nice unslabbed, say early red Lincoln Cents. I feel my own grading abilities are good enough (finally) to buy raw ones and know I'm getting what I pay for, but very few nice raw ones exist. As for coins after 1934 I try not to buy slabs, but I do if it is a coin I need and have had trouble finding (just like 34-d and 35-s dimes I just got). After 1934 I want to put everything in albums, so I now have to figure out how to safely break these coins out. I plan to leave pre 1934 coins in the slabs for now in case I need to sell anything and to best protect the coins. I really hope someday though I can break all my coins out and store my entire Lincoln Cent (or entire small cent) collection together in the same manner rather than a jumbled mix of different slabs and raw.
I love buy raw GEMs and getting them graded...... But some coins I would never never recommend buying raw.... Even if you are a expert in the series.......... some that come to mind, the 1916 d winged liberty, 1914 d lincoln.... Maybe raw gold is very risky... There are many others..... Now as far as buying slabb'd and then cracking them and putting them into a album, nothing wrong there..... It may become hard to get a good return on them when its time to sell, if that time ever came. Why would I buy a raw coin at a slabb'd price? I noticed this is a awful trend of dealers at the Long Beach coin show..... Going to sell me a raw coin, yes I do expect it to be cheaper then a certified one.... Otherwise, why take a chance on a coin that maybe problematic or altered in some way...
Be Bop A Lula!! "Senorita HepKitty" "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
From what I have seen most of the nice coins being offered for sale by dealers are in slabs, especially mint state and proof material. So if you are going to eschew slabs, you are going to limit the universe of available coins. Sure some high end coins from collections are offered raw at auction or by old-line, die hard anti-slab dealers like Stacks, but mostly what you see raw at shows etc is mid to low end circulated material.
Of course, if you are collecting mid to low grade circulated material, and you are willing to live with coins that have been cleaned, then you can operate outside of the world of slabs. But even then you had better really know what you are doing if you are buying early coins like wreath cents, flowing hair and bust coins for high prices.
I started because of getting ripped off in the 1980s. Every coin I bought was over-graded (by the dealer that I delt with) and every coin I sold back to the same dealer claimed was of lower quality than I bought it from them. I guess back in the 1980s the coins became worn in those cardboard 2 x 2s.
The certification market actually saved numismatics!
Tony
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>Just came up with another idea. Leave them to a coin club with the stipulation that they be packaged up individually in anonymous grab bags and handed out randomly to YN's coming to the local show, one per person until they are all gone. >>
1998. I was a Type collector working on the Dansco 7070 album, and my proof coins were getting milk spots and red copper was "turning" on me. Not Dansco's fault, but more likely Hercules, who are the local pulp mill that pumps out all the sulfuric fumes that give Brunswick, GA its cherished nickname: "The City of A Thousand Smells". Plus there's sulfur in the groundwater here, and we're on the coast. In other words, it's bad news for unprotected coins.
So I went to slabs mostly for protection from the environment. As a side benefit, it was also nice to get some measure of protection from dealer overgrading, doctored coins, and hidden problems, since most of my purchases at the time were through sight-unseen mailorder channels. This was a year or two before I discovered the Internet.
How.... took the money out of the wallet and bought the thing.
Why... after a nine year absence from coin collecting and coming back to see that dealers in my area still liked to over grade raw coins I thought it would be a wise decision, and still think its a wise decision. Another reason was that adding more than one coin every year or so was cool also. A little protection from the crap that happened in the eighties does not hurt either.
I fully agree with numonebuyer, fcloud, and fairlaneman. Buying raw coins will burn you a lot more than buying slabs. Sometimes the graders at the grading companies can't even come to an agreement, and they are the experts. So how can part time collectors get it right all the time.
I don't collect slabs, I collect coins. Some of them happen to be in slabs but I PAY for the coin, not the plastic. (I have not paid for a submission yet!) Grading IS subjective, and always will be, but some opinions hold more water than others, like it or not, that's the way it is. Joe
If you were looking to buy a particular coin at a show, and you found two that you thought were the same grade (but one was PCGS slabbed and the other was raw) and they were both for the same price, which would you buy? Would you buy the raw coin because you hate slabs or would you break down and buy the slabbed coin? Let us assume both were for sale by the same well-respected and trusted seller.
To me the answer is obvious, I would buy the slabbed coin.
I submitted my first coins in 1997. I had not bought nor submitted a coin before that. I submitted the coins as free submissions after joining the PCGS collectors club. Three of the four slabbed at my grade or better. the fourth was an 09SVDB with an added MM. I now only collect slabs because of all the monkey business in the market and I am actully thinking about getting rid of all my raw stuff.
I just saw a decent and looks to be properly graded 1893-S PCGS vf25 fetch $3850 on eBay. I can tell you DK that there is no way that coin would bring that kind of $$$ on eBay if it was unslabbed. So THAT is why I prefer to buy or have my coins in the protective custody of a PCGS or NGC plastic slab.
<< <i>Here is a gut check for the anti-slabblers...
If you were looking to buy a particular coin at a show, and you found two that you thought were the same grade (but one was PCGS slabbed and the other was raw) and they were both for the same price, which would you buy? Would you buy the raw coin because you hate slabs or would you break down and buy the slabbed coin? Let us assume both were for sale by the same well-respected and trusted seller.
To me the answer is obvious, I would buy the slabbed coin.
Numonebuyer >>
Since no two coins are alike, I would buy the one that looks the best to me, regardless of the plastic. As always, I do not let the holder determine the coin that goes into my collection.
I got started collecting slabs as a collector. None of the dealers wanted to buy my raw coins, and I wanted my collection to have a degree of liquidity. Raw coins wouldnt cut it. This also forced me into a higher valued market.
<< <i>Here is a gut check for the anti-slabblers... >>
No question, I'd buy the raw one. Of course this would never happen in my case since I would never have seen the slabbed one because I don't look at slabs. I have had dealers try and offer me slabs after I ask about a particular piece and I have explained to them that I do not buy slabbed coins.
So much for gut check.
Now make the raw one just a little nicer and a little more expensive, not a lot just a little. Do you have the guts to pay more for the raw coin than the "safety" of the slabbed one? I do.
I don't claim to have read every post or thread on the subject but there are many members here who freely opine on why they do or do not purchase slabbed coins. I have read and believe that a person's choice is not nearly as important as their reason/s for making that choice. So if you would be so kind as to share with us WHY you have this strong bias against perhaps we can better understand where you are coming from.
I'm a big fan of the grading companies and their product. They've done the hobby a tremendous service and have been generally pretty competent at it. Even the lesser slabs tend to really be a pretty good product generally. I'm not a big fan of graded coins however, and fortunately I collect primarily in areas that grading is not nearly as important. My primary problems with slabs is their physical size and the inability to find slabbed coins at a price which doesn't reflect the market. Very few will fit into a safety deposit box. Owners of slabbed coins will not sell them for very low prices like those normally encountered for raw moderns.
A less important problem with slabs is that I don't grade quite the same as the third party graders. I value strike much more, not only the strike itself but die and hub con- dition also. This isn't really a major problem since one can always search out the best strikes whether they are slabbed or not. Also with the moderns there is a much higher correlation between quality of strike and overall quality. i.e. the best tend to have the best strikes, the best hubs, the best alignment, and the cleanest surfaces.
I aquired my first slab in about 1992 in a trade and bought my first one in about 1997.
I have been collecting coins for years and never even heard of a slab until I found this message board back in 99. A member sent me a PCGS PF69DCAM 1981S TYPE1 SBA and a sample slab. That was my first slabbed coin now I have nearly 100 coins in slabs. They aren't all pcgs or mint state but what the heck I like them.
I hate it when you see my post before I can edit the spelling.
dorkkarl
Posts: 12,692 ✭✭✭
Comments
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
Tom
And, since I collect primarily for the joy of collecting; a few percentage points higher for being in a slab gives me comfort. Becasue, I know all the things that folks can and do miss when buying raw coins in the series with which I specialize. I don't wish to make the same mistakes they make in the series in which I do not specialize.
Brian
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
When did you start dorkkarl?
peacockcoins
Then last year, Conder101 piqued my interest with his posts on old slabs. I got into it more and more and when the slab book finally came in the mail I was totally hooked. Now I like to specialize in sample slabs and the rest is history.
Cameron Kiefer
<< <i>When did you start dorkkarl? >>
when the 1st slabs came out. in fact, i was 1 of the biggest proponents of slabs - at the beginning.
if you count the old ANA photo-cert's, i started out w/ those too, when they 1st came out.
early on, i thought slabs were the miracle product of the century, more valuable then the cure for the common cold. i really thought it might revolutionize the coin hobby. now, i know better.
(although i am a very strong supporter of 3pg - 3d party grading)
K S
I don't agree with saying buy the coin, not the holder entirely. I say buy the coin and get it holdered. Nothing wrong with a little corroberation.
If the collecting public had not felt the need for such a service PCGS would not be here after 17 years.
What ever the problems with pcgs or ngc, I remember what it was like in the 70's and early 80's as far as coin grading and dealers not standing behind the grades of the coins they sell, It is far better today then it was then. That does not mean I don't think there is room for improvment though.
Les
How and why? Back to mid 80's, I bought some gold coins (all marked MS60 to MS62) from a Northern California dealer (I believe he is a mayor or a vice mayor in a small town in the Northern California) in Long Beach show. At the time, I was a young kid to the gold coins and did not have too much idea about AU and BU. Several years later, I show the coins to ANACS graders in a large coin show, they told me that all coins were sliders. I sent the coins to PCGS about a month later, they all came back between AU50 to AU55. From that on (1991), I only bought slab coins unless the series that I understand very well, the standing liberty quarters.
If you only buy raw coins, as compared to only buying slabbed coins, you will be burned more often. No one can argue with that.
I started collecting only slabbed coins when I got tired of getting burned by dealers who weren't exactly honest. My skills as a grader are improving, but there are still some coins that PCGS will body bag that I submit for grading. Why should I go through the hassle? If I only buy PCGS-slabbed coins, I have fewer worries. Note that I did not say "no worries", I said "fewer worries". That is OK with me.
Numonebuyer
<< <i>You all drive me crazy with that "I don't collect slabs, I collect coins" crap. The bottom line is this, unless you all plan on being burried with your coins, someday every coin all of you own is going to get sold. >>
so what? after your dead, what the he11 do you care? REST IN PEACE!
all i worry about is enjoying the coins NOW.
K S
<< <i>Would you rather that you or they sell slabbed coins or raw coins? >>
Frankly I'll be dead and I really couldn't care less what my heirs get for them. I'd actually prefer that they continue collecting. i might not even leave them to my family and will them to some other collector who will appreciate them. Just came up with another idea. Leave them to a coin club with the stipulation that they be packaged up individually in anonymous grab bags and handed out randomly to YN's coming to the local show, one per person until they are all gone. The Conder tokens alone should last for ten years. or less depending on how long it takes for word to get out that every YN is being given a coin worth anywhere from twenty to three hundred dollars for free. I kind of like that idea.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Of course, if you are collecting mid to low grade circulated material, and you are willing to live with coins that have been cleaned, then you can operate outside of the world of slabs. But even then you had better really know what you are doing if you are buying early coins like wreath cents, flowing hair and bust coins for high prices.
CG
The certification market actually saved numismatics!
Tony
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>Just came up with another idea. Leave them to a coin club with the stipulation that they be packaged up individually in anonymous grab bags and handed out randomly to YN's coming to the local show, one per person until they are all gone. >>
Conder101, That is a great idea. It really is.
Numonebuyer
So I went to slabs mostly for protection from the environment. As a side benefit, it was also nice to get some measure of protection from dealer overgrading, doctored coins, and hidden problems, since most of my purchases at the time were through sight-unseen mailorder channels. This was a year or two before I discovered the Internet.
Why... after a nine year absence from coin collecting and coming back to see that dealers in my area still liked to over grade raw coins I thought it would be a wise decision, and still think its a wise decision. Another reason was that adding more than one coin every year or so was cool also. A little protection from the crap that happened in the eighties does not hurt either.
When.. Late 1997 or early 1998.
Ken
Joe
If you were looking to buy a particular coin at a show, and you found two that you thought were the same grade (but one was PCGS slabbed and the other was raw) and they were both for the same price, which would you buy? Would you buy the raw coin because you hate slabs or would you break down and buy the slabbed coin? Let us assume both were for sale by the same well-respected and trusted seller.
To me the answer is obvious, I would buy the slabbed coin.
Numonebuyer
I now only collect slabs because of all the monkey business in the market and I am actully thinking about getting rid of all my raw stuff.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
<< <i>Here is a gut check for the anti-slabblers...
If you were looking to buy a particular coin at a show, and you found two that you thought were the same grade (but one was PCGS slabbed and the other was raw) and they were both for the same price, which would you buy? Would you buy the raw coin because you hate slabs or would you break down and buy the slabbed coin? Let us assume both were for sale by the same well-respected and trusted seller.
To me the answer is obvious, I would buy the slabbed coin.
Numonebuyer >>
Since no two coins are alike, I would buy the one that looks the best to me, regardless of the plastic. As always, I do not let the holder determine the coin that goes into my collection.
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
David
<< <i>Here is a gut check for the anti-slabblers... >>
No question, I'd buy the raw one. Of course this would never happen in my case since I would never have seen the slabbed one because I don't look at slabs. I have had dealers try and offer me slabs after I ask about a particular piece and I have explained to them that I do not buy slabbed coins.
So much for gut check.
Now make the raw one just a little nicer and a little more expensive, not a lot just a little. Do you have the guts to pay more for the raw coin than the "safety" of the slabbed one? I do.
I don't claim to have read every post or thread on the subject but there are many members here who freely opine on why they do or do not purchase slabbed coins.
I have read and believe that a person's choice is not nearly as important as their reason/s for making that choice.
So if you would be so kind as to share with us WHY you have this strong bias against perhaps we can better understand where you are coming from.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
tremendous service and have been generally pretty competent at it. Even the lesser
slabs tend to really be a pretty good product generally. I'm not a big fan of graded
coins however, and fortunately I collect primarily in areas that grading is not nearly
as important. My primary problems with slabs is their physical size and the inability
to find slabbed coins at a price which doesn't reflect the market. Very few will fit into
a safety deposit box. Owners of slabbed coins will not sell them for very low prices
like those normally encountered for raw moderns.
A less important problem with slabs is that I don't grade quite the same as the third
party graders. I value strike much more, not only the strike itself but die and hub con-
dition also. This isn't really a major problem since one can always search out the best
strikes whether they are slabbed or not. Also with the moderns there is a much higher
correlation between quality of strike and overall quality. i.e. the best tend to have the
best strikes, the best hubs, the best alignment, and the cleanest surfaces.
I aquired my first slab in about 1992 in a trade and bought my first one in about 1997.
I hate it when you see my post before I can edit the spelling.
Always looking for nice type coins
my local dealer