Because someone has a pop.s 1/0 coin does NOT give them the right to determine the coin is worth wha

jcping · July 22, 2003 11:28PM

What's wrong with this statement? Do you agree with this statement?

MadMarty · July 22, 2003 11:36PM

A coin is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it! Case in point, the whackjob said his "Pissing minuteman" was worth $90,000 but no one would pay that, on the other hand the 1963 PR70DCAM SOLD or $32,000, it is worth $32,000 because someone ponied up the cash!

dorkkarl · July 22, 2003 11:36PM

it's an irrelevant statement because the word "pop" is meaningless. "pop" says very little about what actually exists in a given grade, just refers what's been slabed.

K S

jeffnpcb · July 22, 2003 11:40PM

Since there are no guidelines on high grades within reason, the value is worth what the market will bear, the type of coin and any variety noted. Go to any major dealer or private party, and one point of sale technique is to use that information. The older the series, the better the chances that the number wouldn't change.
Your question is inferring that only certain publications are the authority of pricing, but current auctions and demand have shot that theory all to pieces. It another aspect of always wanting to buy at greysheet{which is very limited on grade points and designations} and wanting to sell at PCGS price guide. I guess it depends on whose shoes you are wearing at the time of sale, the sellers or the buyers!

nwcs · July 22, 2003 11:43PM

A person has the right to determine a coin's worth. We all do it. Whether the market will agree is another matter.

Placid · July 22, 2003 11:43PM

If I want a certain price for a coin to sell it then that is up to me.
If no one wants to buy it at that price that is up to them.

DHeath · July 22, 2003 11:59PM

What was it you didn't buy?

keets · July 23, 2003 12:33AM

MadMarty kind of summed things up with the first reply, but i'll make a statement that is an absolute, undeniable truth--------any coins value is always determined by the buyer. if you have trouble understanding that concept....................

al h.

Placid · July 23, 2003 12:40AM

So I can go into a coin shop and buy a coin marked $200 for $10 because I am the buyer?

keets · July 23, 2003 12:52AM

So I can go into a coin shop and buy a coin marked $200 for $10 because I am the buyer?

c'mon now, you're smart enough to be able to understand what i'm saying. with your subject $200 coin, or any other for that matter, irrespective of whatever price the seller is asking, if a buyer doesn't make a determination that it's worth that amount, it'll never sell for that amount.

the buyer determines the value in that regard, the seller determines whether or not he'll sell for that amount. consider the 1927 Buffalo i linked above, and tell me what value you think it has with the thought in mind that i want to sell it. which of us decides the sale price? consider an auction, a true auction with no reserve, inflated starting price or hidden shill bidders. who again determines the selling price? the buyer, it's always the buyer.

al h.

sinin1 · July 23, 2003 12:54AM

possession makes determining acceptable sale value possible - I have some coin I feel is worth 10K because it is xxxxx, I can keep it until I die or until someone is willing to offer that.

If some whiner comes along and says it is only worth 1K, tuff he won't get mine until I am so broke I really need 1K

keets · July 23, 2003 1:05AM

If some whiner comes along and says it is only worth 1K, tuff he won't get mine until I am so broke I really need 1K

..........and in that case, the buyer has just determined the coins value.

al h.

let freedom ring!!!!!!!!!

MrEureka · July 23, 2003 1:08AM

The biggest problem with the initial statement is that it implies that a coin HAS a precise current value. Like any asset (other than the currency in which prices are to be determined), NO assets have precise current values. Not even a share of Microsoft can be said to have a precise value. There may be a bid, an ask and a last trade, but there is no such thing as a precise "current value".

Of course, if the real question is if a coin's owner may quote any price he pleases, well, OF COURSE HE CAN!

Edited to say: In other words, owners don't determine what a coin is worth. Negotiations do.

LAWMAN · July 23, 2003 1:25AM

Once upon a time in the 19th century, goods for sale did not have fixed prices. Buyer offered, seller negotiated, and a price was arrived at. The advent of department stores and catalog sales (like Sears & Roebuck) changed that and ushered in the era of supposedly "fixed" prices, really an illusion. The fair market value of any item is what a willing buyer without compulsion will pay a willing seller in an arm's length transaction. That's why, when somebody says they have to sell a coin for X + Y because they have "X in the coin," it is really quite irrelevant. There is no presumption of profit. That's what makes capitalism fun. In a deflationary economy (which we might be entering) where everybody expects a discount or a deal (the Costco mentality), it's REALLY fun.

dorkkarl · July 23, 2003 1:45AM

<< any coins value is always determined by the buyer >>

that is not true. the concept of value is an economic term, & "value" is a function of supply & demand. therefore, there must be a seller as well as a buyer, ie. 2 parties, for the concept of "value" to make sense.

K S

Typetone · July 23, 2003 2:00AM

In reality both buyer and seller determine the price. A seller's asking price is not the value unless someone is willing to pay. On the other hand, if the best buyer is below where the best seller will sell, than that is not the value either. In our market, it is often set up in such a way that the buyer makes the determination, in an auction for example. However, even in an auction the use of seller reserves are common, and the best bid is not always a buy. I guess, it is what we all learned in economics, namely supply and demand. Both sides are crucial.

I agree that sheet pricing is becoming less and less important, because it is becoming less accurate. With auction price histories now easily available on Teletrade and Heritage, it is becoming easier to estimate values from real transactions (although even auction results are only an estimate of what was, not what is). It seems like the sheets are not willing or able to do the work with auction prices to keep current.

The lesson? In this up market, buy from dealers using sheet pricing and sell through auctions. In the next down market, buy at auction and sell to dealers using sheet pricing. There you have it, the secret.

Greg

LAWMAN · July 23, 2003 2:52AM

Dorkkarl: If you were starving to death and had only your coins to barter for food, or, perhaps, you had just fled a country with only your clothes on your back and your coins, what is the "value" of your favorite coin? A Happy Meal, a Big Mac? "Value" is in the eyes of the persons making the deal. period.

dorkkarl · July 23, 2003 3:55AM

<< Dorkkarl: If you were starving to death and had only your coins to barter for food, or, perhaps, you had just fled a country with only your clothes on your back and your coins, what is the "value" of your favorite coin? A Happy Meal, a Big Mac? "Value" is in the eyes of the persons making the deal. period. >>

no sir, not correct at all. you would have to buy the food from someone who would have to be wiling to part w/ it in exchange for your offer. prices can only be in effect when both sides of the economics relationship are in effect.

ie. no matter how badly you want to trade your favorite coins for the happy meal, if the supplier of the happy meal is unwilling to accept your offer, the value cannot be established.

put it another way. say you want to buy a 1964 peace dollar. what's the value of 1? $100? $1000? $995,000,487? it is impossible to say w/out a supply.

by def'n, "value" cannot be established based on demand alone.

K S

LAWMAN · July 23, 2003 4:28AM

Not "supply" here in this hypothetical, only "need."

Nysoto · July 23, 2003 4:34AM

A coin's value is dictated by simultaneous mutual determination of competitive equilibrium price based on the marginal utility of the collector and maximization of profit by the dealer for the quantity supplied of the coin.

keets · July 23, 2003 4:41AM

huh??

al h.

mojorizn · July 23, 2003 4:44AM

YEOW!! Put away the economics text book! AAAAA!! Flashback to college!

MOJO

barberlover · July 23, 2003 4:46AM

Sinin 1, I hope you weren't referring to that green peace dollar you showed me this past spring !!!

The owner of a coin always has the right to ask for his coin whatever he or she wants to. But the only person that determines the value of the coin is whoever offers the most money for it to the owner and the owner can either except or reject the highest offer.

But what really determines valu isn't what the owner wants or what the highest bidder is willing to pay, but rather what the 2nd highest bidder or general market is willing to pay.

What do I mean ?

Lets say you buy coin [x] for 100 dollars and because you think the coin is pq you try to sell it for 200 dollars. You have 3 people interested in the coin because it really does have pq eye appeal, but you don't think the coin will upgrade. Offer A. is 90 dollars, a cheapskate who wants to get everything "back of bid" even pq coins, offer B. is 110 dollars because this person thinks its a nice coin but this person believes that even if a coin is pq that no coin without "crackout potential" for an upgrade is worth more then 10 % above bid and offer C. Also from a person who thinks the coin is nice but not a
"crackout coin" offers 130 dollars for the coin.

So, if you stick to your guns and refuse to sell for offer C. that means your rejecting an instant 30 % profit. Why would you do that if you didn't think the coin would upgrade ?

I have seen dealers whole sale to other dealers rather then give a collector the coin at 130 dollars, they sell it to another dealer for less money !!! Why ? Personal vanity ? Also if someone pays the dealers price that is way above market and then later desides to sell, what is likely to happen is that no one else will offer more then offer C. 130 dollars because that is the top of the market for that coin.

Les

MrEureka · July 23, 2003 11:00AM

A coin's value is dictated by simultaneous mutual determination of competitive equilibrium price based on the marginal utility of the collector and maximization of profit by the dealer for the quantity supplied of the coin.

What makes you think that there's a single price? If the collector's "marginal utility" of the coin is 10K, and if the dealer has no other hopes of selling the coin above 8K, the coin can trade between those two parties anywhere between 8-10K. Setting a precise price is a function of negotiation.

There is no precise "value", even at the precise moment in time at which the deal is done. If you have any doubt, consider two identical coins simultaneously trading hands between two buyers and two sellers. If one coin trades at 8K and the other at 9K, what is the value of a single coin at that point in time?

MrMoo · July 23, 2003 11:08AM

There is no spoon.

Lakesammman · July 23, 2003 11:19AM

I'm still trying to digest and understand the original compound sentence. Glad you guys know how to respond....I'm lost.

ElectricEye · July 23, 2003 11:21AM

mercurynut · July 23, 2003 11:24AM

The value of a pop 1 coin...is the minimum the owner is willing to sell and anything over that is what the market will bare.

MrEureka · July 23, 2003 11:26AM

The value of a pop 1 coin...is the minimum the owner is willing to sell and anything over that is what the market will bare.

So if the coin appears at auction unreserved, the value is zero?

stujoe · July 23, 2003 11:34AM

<< Because someone has a pop.s 1/0 coin does NOT give them the right to determine the coin is worth what they say... What's wrong with this statement? Do you agree with this statement? >>

I agree with the statement but only because the seller will not ultimately determine what the coin is worth. The buyers will determine it by either yea-ing or nay-ing on the coin at his price. However, it is the seller's coin and he has every right to ask whatever he wants for it.

sinin1 · July 23, 2003 11:39AM

barberlover - just because today only 3 people are interested from $90 to $130 does not mean 6 months from now they may be more or less interested parties at different ranges

not referring to the green peace dollar - that dealer offered me $25, I said I wanted $100
now it went to FRATT for PCGS toning examples - will come back bodybagged but if it comes back MS65 - woah baby - may be worth something then

I wish I could buy whatever I wanted and could tell the seller what it was worth and that is what I am going to pay him - all the time

I would have a nice collection of rarities not worth very much (bevause that is all I paid)

A few months ago I bought some ICG MS69 SMS dimes froma board member - he said they weren't worth much because so many - I was gonna get 4 at $15/ he changed his mind and only sold 3 - a couple months later he has a NGC MS67 CAM with a $750 price tag (do not know if it sold - or at what price) - he said yep it was that $15 coin he decided not to sell me

JoyofCollecting · July 23, 2003 11:50AM

The seller only determines the asking price...the buyer ultimately decides the exchange price. How so?

Suppose a dealer has an 1873-CC no arrows dime in his inventory (unique we think). He is asking $750K for the coin. Here are most of things that can happen:

1. Someone immediately buys the coin. The buyer has determined the exchange price. Buyer can accept an offer....Seller can't force the acceptance and the Seller is bound to accept a bonafide, unrescinded offer.

2. Someone offers $725K for the coin and dealer accepts. Buyer established the exchange price...although he could not force acceptance. Seller can enforce the sell once he receives a bonafide offer....but then the offer would be the buyer establishing the price.

3. Dealer puts the coin in an auction. Buyer either determines the exchange price or the reserve prevents an exchange price from being established.

4. Dealer never sells coin and passes it onto his heirs. Once again...it will never have an established exchange price without the Buyer.

So, the answer to the question in the thread title is most certainly "No." However, whether it is just the buyer or the buyer and seller together can be debated for quite a long time.

Legend · July 23, 2003 11:58AM

I don't understand what most people here are thinking in this chat.

A SELLER can ask the moon or whatever they want for any item. Its the BUYERS who determine the market. Even if its a pop. one coin.

A market is created when a buyer and seller agree on a price. NOT when a greedy seller decides they want a stupid number for something.

So say you have an item (like the 1887/6 3CN from a thread on the registry section) and you ask $28,500.00 for because its the only one. Is that the real market? NO! The majorty of people would say around $5,000.00 (which was published). I believe one bird said $7,500.00-but if you notice there is some collective thinking and no one but the the seller is anywhere near $28,000.00. So the real market value of the coin is closer to $5,000.00 and is determined by the buyers (this is just one example).

I believe the comment that started this thread was taken from something I said on the other board. Nothing infuriates me more than when people get stupid greedy because they have a pop.1 registry coin. IMHO, most of these guys are doing nothing more than fishing, while some of the uneducated public thinks they are setting the values.

JoyofCollecting · July 23, 2003 12:04PM

<< I don't understand what most people here are thinking in this chat.

A SELLER can ask the moon or whatever they want for any item. Its the BUYERS who determine the market. Even if its a pop. one coin.

>>

Laura, I couldn't agree more!!

barberlover · July 23, 2003 12:05PM

Laura, I think I'm going to faint !!!!

We are in 100 % agreement !!!

Les

Lakesammman · July 23, 2003 12:11PM

So, if I'm fishing and the entire school ignores me (except for one), what's to stop me from fishing??

MrEureka · July 23, 2003 12:13PM

Its the BUYERS who determine the market. Even if its a pop. one coin.

Laura - What's the market value of your 1913 Liberty nickel?

braddick · July 23, 2003 12:33PM

<< 

<< I don't understand what most people here are thinking in this chat. A SELLER can ask the moon or whatever they want for any item. Its the BUYERS who determine the market. Even if its a pop. one coin. >>

Laura, I couldn't agree more!! >>

Let me add a slight little wrinkle here though: What if the Seller (accidently) UNDERprices the coin?
For example, Mitch of Wondercoin is looking for one of the four recently graded MS68 1982-D Kennedy halves. If the Seller offers one for $250.00 that is way too cheap, (this coin could easily fetch $1,500.00) would be quickly snapped up by one of the many Kennedy Registry builders and then the price is set?!

It's NOT just the buyer that determines value (read: price). The COIN sets a value and the END USER (not always the first buyer!).

Legend · July 23, 2003 1:05PM

If a seller accidentally underprices a coin, granted the coin will sell too cheap, but the market should show that. How? By the number of buyers who try to buy or even the buyers who offer more.

That is NOT the same scenerio as what we are discussing. We are really discussing hostage taking on pop.1 coins.

braddick · July 23, 2003 1:10PM

Ok Laura, I think we're on the same page now... what if that "hostage taking" Collector has a Top POP ONE Kennedy the Number One Registry set builder wants (make that, 'needs') and the asking price is $2,500.00 on a coin that really shouldn't be priced above $1,500.00. The Registry owner sucks it up and decides (only this one time!) to overpay and own the coin.

Is the coin now a $2,500.00 coin even though there isn't another collector on the planet that would pay that price?

MrEureka · July 23, 2003 1:13PM

We are really discussing hostage taking on pop.1 coins.

It's not "hostage taking". Nobody is forcing anyone to buy these coins.

You had it right before when you called the wild shot takers "stupid greedy". It's stupid to quote prices that are so high that you scare away potential buyers and their counter offers. It's also stupid because it damages your reputation. Nevertheless, I'm sure we all agree that we are all free to choose to be stupid greedy.

oreville · July 23, 2003 1:29PM

I happen to have a slabbed pop 1 coin in which the bid is published in the greysheet every week. The bid increased by $500 for the first time in 6 years.

The interesting thing is that I have never been contacted in all my years of owning this special coin about a bid.

I happen to have some doubts about bid and ask prices on pop 1 coins.

relayer · July 23, 2003 4:57PM

You are 100% correct.

It also takes a willing buyer to determine it's value.

coiNuts · July 23, 2003 5:20PM

What is it worth?????????????????
What someone is willing to pay for it!!!!!!!!!!!!
You just need to find the highest payer at the right time,,,,,,,business is easy...................marriage is HARD!

Trime · July 23, 2003 8:03PM

Those who said that the market value is not a fixed determination are correct. It is the result of a negotiated price. There is an estimated value based on historical data, commonly used indices and influenced by the cost of production or commodity pricing but if there are no buyers in the long run it is worth little above melt value ( which is also a negotiated commodity).
Now the personal value is a different thing. Something can have immense personal value to an individual and have no market value. If there is only one of something and the prospective seller has determined that they will only sell for X and the universe of potential buyers would pay no more than X-Y, then the value is undeterminable but falls (at that moment) somewhere between the bid and ask. If there are lots of something and there is an established marketplace then the market value can be more precisely estimated (at that time).

JoyofCollecting · July 23, 2003 8:37PM

<< 
Now the personal value is a different thing. >>

Trime, many good points in your post. I am seriously looking for a good dog. At the animal shelter they are pretty much free. Puppies in the paper average about $250. Assuming your's is more than two years old, I'll give you about $125 for your old dog as this seems to be what people are paying.

Is this kinda what you mean?

Trime · July 23, 2003 8:55PM

Joysofcollecting,
Sorry but it wasn't where I was. I will create an scenerio for you.
I have a coin that my father gave me the day befor he died; he told me it belonged to his father and it was a keepsake always given to the oldest surviving chilld in the family. My wife finds the coin and not knowing the history takes the coin to 10 dealers in the area to determine what they willl offer for it; she also reads all the different price sheets and scoures the auction prices realized lists from auctions in the past year. She has a pretty good idea of market value. It is a common date and has an estimated market value based on the above information but I refuse to sell as its personal value is much greater to me.

JoyofCollecting · July 23, 2003 9:04PM

Trime:

I thought the two examples are pretty close:

You wouldn't sell a loyal, old dog that you love for $5,000 and no one else that hadn't owned the dog would probably give you more than a couple of hundred bucks for it.

Exact same reason you wouldn't sell your grandfather's coin for five times greysheet bid.

It's early...I could be wrong.

dorkkarl · July 23, 2003 9:40PM

<< <<<A coin's value is dictated by...>>> What makes you think that there's a single price? >>

hey mr-eureka, he said "value". "value" & "price" are not at all the same thing. "price" does not imply supply & demand, as "value" does, it is set solely by the supplier.

<< A SELLER can ask the moon or whatever they want for any item. Its the BUYERS who determine the market. Even if its a pop. one coin >>

legend, what are you babbling about? there can be no market w/out supply & demand, case closed. "buyers" to not determine the market, they participate in the market. you got it right in your next sentence: "A market is created when a buyer and seller agree on a price. NOT when a greedy seller decides they want a stupid number for something.", but i don't understand why you contradicted yourself in the previous sentence. did i misunderstand?

K S

LAWMAN · July 24, 2003 1:26AM

Like I said yesterday, what a willing buyer without compulsion will pay a willing seller in an arm's length transaction. What I really enjoy about this forum is how long we can dissect a point.

JoyofCollecting · July 24, 2003 2:20AM

<< Like I said yesterday, what a willing buyer without compulsion will pay a willing seller in an arm's length transaction. What I really enjoy about this forum is how long we can dissect a point. >>

No offense intended, but we've all had BLaw 101. You have the makings of a great attorney....you desire to keep things simple. Makes for a great corporate general counsel....however it could limit revenue at a large firm.

It's not how long we can dissect a point...its how deeply. Rather than start a new thread on every subpoint...we often use the same thread to meander through a general issue. The answer to the original question was pretty obvious and addressed quickly. I think the originator was more complaining than asking a deep question.

The meanderings on this thread have gone in several directions. I have enjoyed them...if not I would have just skipped the thread as most of us do. As I often due given my limited number of posts over the last 15 months.

Welcome to the boards!

Because someone has a pop.s 1/0 coin does NOT give them the right to determine the coin is worth wha

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