I was just browsing this weeks Heritage Exclusively Internet auction. Does this look like a MS65 to you? PCGS needs to get out of the business of trying to determine value. Just tell us what the grade is, the market will determine the value.
Thats why the grade on the slab should be taken with a grain of salt. Because it says X grade on the insert doesnt make that grade something thats etched into stone.
Like continually resubmitting one coin in hopes of bumping the grade to more profitiblitiy is silly.
Those maxed-out ,overgraded pieces are not doing anyone any good.....except ofcourse the seller. I guess thats all that matters though. Making profits on the backs of the less informed.
What a concept.
B.T. Barnum was right. Theres one born every second.
Hmmm..........looks like it's time to submit my 90-CC. It's a very solid 64+, very possible slider. 65 would be cool, based on that one, it's an easy 66.
Ka-ching!!!
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
Not only CC, but I rarely agree with any grading these days. Yeah I know I'm a old grumpy tech grader, but a 65 GEM is only supposed to have a couple minute marks in the focal area. These days a 65 Morgan that's "correctly graded will still have quite a few light and scattered marks.
Most 64's I see I can't believe how nasty they look. I always thought one of the reasons for the 64 grade was a just miss 65 gem. Not no more. Now 63? forget about it. I remember a 63 was a nice eye-appealing coin. Now many I see are what we used to call BU (butt ugly)
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
I would say 63, but it might sneak into 64 if it looks a little better in person, but so what, even in 64 it appears the coin suffers from a lack of eye appeal. 65 is a mistake; ACG would be proud. I wonder what it will sell for?
Don't I see a bar code on a blue insert? That's recent. I've been collecting Morgans for 30+ years and could always grade them dead on but have been missing them a lot lately. I know my standards haven't changed.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
Not the most flatterning pic. Without having the coin in hand, or seeing other pics at different angles, lighting conditions, my guess is (1) the pic is not accurately depicting the surfaces (i.e., the coin is better than the pic seems to suggest) and/or (2) the strike is good, and the luster is great. Remember hits/ticsk/chatter are only one of factors taken into account when assigning a grade. And while the most amazing luster ever seen will not compensate for a banged up coin, it will compensate for a bit of chatter and marks (depending of course on the number, degree, and location). Of course there is a third possibilty, it is overgraded; mistakes do happen.
While on the topic of luster,let me give an example. Yesterday, I was offered a Franklin graded MS 65 by PCGS (I saw the coin in person and viewed it with proper lighting). It had been slabbed prior to PCGS designating FBL. This coin willl FBL, and the price reflected that. I passed on the coin. The coin was blast white, and had fantastic luster. There were more ticks/hits (and taking into account where they were located on the coin) then I would like on a 65, but acceptable. The big problem was the strike; the ear/hair was too flat; this also affected the eye appeal. I was surpised it did not 64. I presume the luster was what kept it a 65. Again, it may have been a 65 according to the standards applied, but it did not go into my set.
K6AZ, I was not questioning your ability to judge Heritage's scans, which tend to be very good. In fact, I didn't even say I disagreed with your opinion. All I did was try to provide a few points to help others understand the grading process, and to explain why you and others disagreed with the grade assigned by PCGS. I suspect that one of the three possibilities I mentioned lilkely provides the correct answer.
Even though Heritage tends to have great scans, typically an opinion based on having the actual in hand is better than relying on a two dimensioanl scann; even if it is a good scan.
/I]edited for grammer and spelling: "Heritages " to "Heritage's"and "pints" to "points"
OUtrage I am tempted to buy it and immediately resubmit for the guarentee. Lets give them the benefit of the doubt and place this next to the misdated morgan slab thread of couple weeks back. But higher because of mint mark of mint that produced the highest quality?? I dont get it Someone in PCGS management should buy it internally immediatly and get it off the market and reslab. This is out right damaging By the way, does Heritage have any axe to grind against PCGS.
Okay, for the benefit of those that are learning to grade, if you have given an "opinion" on the grade of this coin, and have not already provided specifics to support your opinion, please provide an analysis to explain "why" you came to that conclusion. What factors are you weighing, and how are you weighing these factors relative to each other. This is not a trick question. Opinions are fine, but we all can learn when we understand how a conclusion was reached.
Hmmmm.........I see chatter chatter with a few deeper hits. You can use infrared film or anything else you want...impacts hits and scrapes are there with significant dimensions. Wait a minute maybe the reverse is MS68
that's an example of the cce bid hitting s/u dealer buyers who rape these poor consignors lots from these ever reoccuring bigger sig,bullet,b&m,superior,etc sales. the strategy of the ones who buy this type of 1 & 2,even 3 overgrades crap is to simply do the major show circuit once/twice a mo buy up say a couple hun thous of below s/u bid and begin hitting bids and making delivery right there at the shows. easy way to make a good 12-15g net clear out of a 3 or 4 day major show. it works quite well and it perpetuates the continuing of a "sight unseen" blow out level for say 75% percent of the coins out there that fall into this category. some dealers have to "prop" their own markets, thus you find a dog 80-cc graded ms65 pcgs that is as fugly and true to an ms63 grade only buy it for a heavily discounted ms65 grade's price of say 475-500 and knowing all your going to do is "poof" hit the high s/u bid from your laptop at 620/30 whatever the s/u bid is at that moment and it was all just "free money" waiting for the intuitive dealer who does such making 6,7,8 hun thous a yr doing nothing but this...it's simple. but you have to vested for at least a mil,if not 2 to get out into the circuit and do nothing but this. easy ceo pay even for a 6th grader who is on cce, does the national show circuit and can act fast at,during or immediately following any decent major show. its's kind of like money for nothing and kicks for free.
it's kinda like this, most of the dealers i know personally who also make 4,5,600k after tax a year in this biz are avg joes with a nitch, that's all. they have nice lovely homes,wonderful families,are good ol home town kinda guys but with a major fat mutimillion dollar retirement personal collection of free rips over the years, and keep 3 to 500 k in cool-cash of $100 bills in their private possession wrapped in 10k foil increments in an underslab firefproof safe or such..
<< <i>Hey doops, can you translate any of that into plain english please? >>
dude, if you aint gettin it off that straight forwardly spoken truth, well....just just aint never gonna get it this is what happens in the coin dealer world from smalls,mediums,bigs,and mega's it's all about "show me the money" that's the deal and it can all be done in earnest,good faith and honorably knowledge is power
Very understandable Doops. Overgrading smells bad and looks bad. Coins must be kept head above water with short cut preassures to score big. Let the accounting scandles of recent be our float on this new swim . PCGS is/was the best in coin grading. Act smart now and keep that gut feeling with us collectors.
You buy sight unseen, you gamble. Sometimes I have to but a good dealer will have a fair return policy. Overgraded/poor eye appeal coins are everywhere! A dealer buys at sight unseen bid, sees it's a dog and sells it to guess who? You!
Coppernicus
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
1880/79 rev 78 CC's normally come very frosty and baggy. The grading on these has always been lenient , but this appears extreme. Finding a clean one is difficult at best. Not trying to defend PCGS or Heritage, but I bet that coin will look better in person. Bad pic. ?
I dont think it is possible to accurately grade a coin from a scan or a digital photograph. If it were David Hall could solve his grading problem. He could get all of his coins graded by internet. We could all get a quick turn around on our submissions that way.
In an insane society, a sane person will appear to be insane.
Let your roots grow down into him and draw up nourishment from him, so you will grow in faith, strong and vigorous in the truth you were taught. Let your lives overflow with thanksgiving for all that he has done. --Colossians 2:7
Conder 101, assuming it is not just a bad pic (it is always easier to grade a coin than an image), you hit the nail on the head! That is, I agree with your assessment.
I wouldn't disagree with that statement either. My primary concern when I buy a coin is what it looks like, and in many cases, I have found nice coins in what is supposed to be an ugly grade (MS62). No matter how you slice this 80-CC, it is ugly and even if it was technically a 65 (a snowballs chance) I would pass on it for negative eye appeal.
THE SCAN DOESNT DO THE COIN JUSTUS!!!!! Damn, I don't believe I just said that. 65 is sposed to be light & scattered hits in the focals without major distractions. The superlarge jumbo picture with the overlit areas contrasting with the dark hits is scary but I can read pictures too. Those hits are just too severe & deep for a 65. Check the dip residue around the stars. I guess that's why Heritage has it in their junky dump it quick auction.
The coin I'm posting in this thread used to be mine. It is also an 80-CC graded MS-64 by PCGS. The reason I sold it was because I thought it was ugly and I was culling some Morgans. I told the board member I sold it to it was just an average 80CC that was properly graded & nothing to get excited over. Maybe I should have cracked it & went for a 6 huh? The big black looking mark between the ear & eye is just a light white shiny scuff. The fingerprint behind the head is not noticable in real life. Damn, I hate coins that I have to justify their problems.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
stman I looked @ it long & hard before I sold it. I make sure nobody cherrypicks me. No matter how I looked @ it I saw 64. Maybe it could possibly 65 today. Since it's an 80-CC maybe even 66. Maybe I need to come out of my cave and get with the market & do the bump & grind. It's way better than the 5 K6AZ posted. Actually it wasn't a print-it was a toning break, aint that the PC word nowdays? But yes, it made me feel trashy.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
Well, I guess I'm too tough on my coins too. This 85cc Gsa I call 64. Not a high end one either. But it looks better than the 65 K6AZ posted as well. But being tough on grading is a good thing. You might miss a coin once in a while but I don't think you'll ever go wrong. Change is no good.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
stman, that looks like a very nice 64 to me. The piece of dung in the Heritage auction was obviously a favor to somebody. 64 would be a gift, 65 is a total outrage.
There's a lot of overgraded CC Morgans out there, but if you look hard enough, you will find some that dead on or even PQ. I usually pay "bid" or between "bid" and "ask" for such pieces.
I would have some sympathy for those who complain about the overgrading and over charging for CC Morgans, but a dealer has to turn a profit somehow. I've already said that I pay "bid" or more for CC Morgans that pass my standards. That mears that I have to charge more than "bid" to stay in business. Yet there are collectors out there who will call you "expensive" or worse if you charge "ask" or more these coins. You have pay the piper one way or the other. You can pay a fair price for nice coin and really have something to enjoy and perhaps sell for a good price in the future, or you can buy an overgraded "bargain" that will not please you when you learn how to grade. Such coins are also slow resellers too unless you discount them when the time comes to liquidate them.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I think bigt is thinking along the same lines as I am, in that:
I would hardly call this specimen a 65; I won't dispute that it is overgraded, but it looks like the 1880/79 variety, and most all of you Morgan folks know that there are no "normal" varities of the '80-CC, and those from the '80/79CC being the worst die state.
This coin has the look of one I submitted, which PCGS grade MS63. I felt it should have been MS64, but, such is life when dealing with the "independent grading services."
BTW, what exactly are the IGS independent of? I used to equate the usage of the term independent as unbiased, but I'm not even sure that is appropriate.
Nowadays, I only use the IGS for encapsulation and preservation. I have never been fond of market grading, so I have been pretty much at odds with the numbers assigned anyway. Finally, I have learned to simply ignore them, for grading purposes - now my only use for them is to help determine when something MIGHT be worth looking at, for the purposes of acquisition.
How many times was it submitted before it made 65, 10, 100, 1000? Its not always profitable to play the crackout game hoping that eventually a mistake will happen. Yes, you can usually buy the plastic, for most its cheaper than trying to grade themselves! I happen upon raw coins all the time that I know nothing about and have to make quick decisions, sometimes I win and sometimes I lose! If you think your a expert on grading many different types, then you need to give David Hall a call, your worth at least $250,000 a year.
You can fool man but you can't fool God! He knows why you do what you do!
Bill, this has nothing to do with dealers making a profit.
I said this earlier, and will say it again, this coin is in no way, shape, or form a 65. This coin is an excellent example of why I will not buy even PCGS/NGC coins without a rock solid return policy. Fortunately, this coin is being auctioned by Heritage, and while their scans lack in luster and color, they are very good for spotting contact marks and strike, which are the prime indicators in determining MS Morgan grades. I could see this coin being auctioned on eBay as "PQ for a 65" with a small, bad scan and no return policy and the buyer being stuck with a severely overgraded coin.
Another thing I want to emphasize is the fact that it is totally ridiculous for a third party grading company to assume the roll of coin appraisor. Let the market determine the value. If PCGS and NGC would simply grade each coin regardless of date or mint mark (as far as value goes) it would sure clear up the murky water that is out there now.
As far as scarcity of this date, this isn't a 93-S or 95-O. There were about 115,000 uncirculated 80-CC's in the GSA hoard, about 20% of the total mintage. All varieties were there, including this one, the various 8 over high 7's and so on. This coin is nowhere near being scarce, and can easily be found in true MS65 condition. There is simply no excuse for this horrible example of overgrading CC Morgans because they are in demand.
In my exoeriance with sending off CC`s to the major grading services PCGS is the most leanient.They grade CC`s a little differently than other dollars minted elsewhere.The bags of CC dollars took a little more punishment than other mints bags.
PCGS,NGC & ANACS certified toned Morgan dollar dealer.
CC Morgans have been market graded for years and that is not going to change anytime soon. Have CC Morgans been overgraded and will they be overgraded at some point in the future? Yes... Have such coins been undergraded in the past and will it happen again? Yes...
Lets remember that grading is still merely an opinion and perhaps with the CC Morgans there is alittle more subjectivity in the analysis in determining the final grade assigned to the coin.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
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Mojo
-Jim Morrison-
Mr. Mojorizn
my blog:www.numistories.com
Because it says X grade on the insert doesnt make that grade something thats etched into stone.
Like continually resubmitting one coin in hopes of bumping the grade to more profitiblitiy is silly.
Those maxed-out ,overgraded pieces are not doing anyone any good.....except ofcourse the seller.
I guess thats all that matters though. Making profits on the backs of the less informed.
What a concept.
B.T. Barnum was right. Theres one born every second.
Ka-ching!!!
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
Most 64's I see I can't believe how nasty they look. I always thought one of the reasons for the 64 grade was a just miss 65 gem. Not no more. Now 63? forget about it. I remember a 63 was a nice eye-appealing coin. Now many I see are what we used to call BU (butt ugly)
Because these CC dollars had to be transported by covered wagon back then, that little grade exception
I think is / was justifiable.
I've been collecting Morgans for 30+ years and could always grade them dead on but have been missing them a lot lately. I know my standards haven't changed.
btw...I've had a few optimators and I can still grade reasonabley well...but it takes forever to type
While on the topic of luster,let me give an example. Yesterday, I was offered a Franklin graded MS 65 by PCGS (I saw the coin in person and viewed it with proper lighting). It had been slabbed prior to PCGS designating FBL. This coin willl FBL, and the price reflected that. I passed on the coin. The coin was blast white, and had fantastic luster. There were more ticks/hits (and taking into account where they were located on the coin) then I would like on a 65, but acceptable. The big problem was the strike; the ear/hair was too flat; this also affected the eye appeal. I was surpised it did not 64. I presume the luster was what kept it a 65. Again, it may have been a 65 according to the standards applied, but it did not go into my set.
Hey Rick, Spaten Optimator huh? Hmmm.. all our local suppliers are out of it right now. Good stuff....
Edited because I have had a few myself... just not optimators!
Even though Heritage tends to have great scans, typically an opinion based on having the actual in hand is better than relying on a two dimensioanl scann; even if it is a good scan.
/I]edited for grammer and spelling: "Heritages " to "Heritage's"and "pints" to "points"
from the PCGS site "MS 65 ~ Minor marks/hairlines though none in focal areas, above average strike" this looks like more than minor marks to me
I am tempted to buy it and immediately resubmit for the guarentee. Lets give them the benefit of the doubt and place this next to the misdated morgan slab thread of couple weeks back. But higher because of mint mark of mint that produced the highest quality?? I dont get it
Someone in PCGS management should buy it internally immediatly and get it off the market and reslab. This is out right damaging
<< <i>Hey doops, can you translate any of that into plain english please? >>
dude, if you aint gettin it off that straight forwardly spoken truth, well....just just aint never gonna get it
this is what happens in the coin dealer world from smalls,mediums,bigs,and mega's
it's all about "show me the money"
that's the deal and it can all be done in earnest,good faith and honorably
knowledge is power
<< <i>K6 ~ << Hey doops, can you translate any of that into plain english please? >> >>
fashizzle my nizzle
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
The grading on these has always been lenient , but this appears extreme.
Finding a clean one is difficult at best.
Not trying to defend PCGS or Heritage, but I bet that coin will look better in person. Bad pic. ?
T
<< <i>Hey doops, can you translate any of that into plain english please? >>
<< <i>Well I'm glad others are able to decipher what doops writes. >>
You claim expertise in morgan dollars so you should understand that market.
Big Mike <><
Let your roots grow down into him and draw up nourishment from him, so you will grow in faith, strong and vigorous in the truth you were taught. Let your lives overflow with thanksgiving for all that he has done. --Colossians 2:7
Damn, I don't believe I just said that.
65 is sposed to be light & scattered hits in the focals without major distractions.
The superlarge jumbo picture with the overlit areas contrasting with the dark hits is scary but I can read pictures too. Those hits are just too severe & deep for a 65. Check the dip residue around the stars.
I guess that's why Heritage has it in their junky dump it quick auction.
The coin I'm posting in this thread used to be mine. It is also an 80-CC graded MS-64 by PCGS. The reason I sold it was because I thought it was ugly and I was culling some Morgans. I told the board member I sold it to it was just an average 80CC that was properly graded & nothing to get excited over. Maybe I should have cracked it & went for a 6 huh?
The big black looking mark between the ear & eye is just a light white shiny scuff.
The fingerprint behind the head is not noticable in real life.
Damn, I hate coins that I have to justify their problems.
<< <i>The fingerprint behind the head is not noticable in real life. >>
Hmmm, but once you know it's there kinda makes you feel dirty don't it?
Actually it wasn't a print-it was a toning break, aint that the PC word nowdays?
I would have some sympathy for those who complain about the overgrading and over charging for CC Morgans, but a dealer has to turn a profit somehow. I've already said that I pay "bid" or more for CC Morgans that pass my standards. That mears that I have to charge more than "bid" to stay in business. Yet there are collectors out there who will call you "expensive" or worse if you charge "ask" or more these coins. You have pay the piper one way or the other. You can pay a fair price for nice coin and really have something to enjoy and perhaps sell for a good price in the future, or you can buy an overgraded "bargain" that will not please you when you learn how to grade. Such coins are also slow resellers too unless you discount them when the time comes to liquidate them.
I think bigt is thinking along the same lines as I am, in that:
I would hardly call this specimen a 65; I won't dispute that it is overgraded, but it looks like the 1880/79 variety, and most all of you Morgan folks know that there are no "normal" varities of the '80-CC, and those from the '80/79CC being the worst die state.
This coin has the look of one I submitted, which PCGS grade MS63. I felt it should have been MS64, but, such is life when dealing with the "independent grading services."
BTW, what exactly are the IGS independent of? I used to equate the usage of the term independent as unbiased, but I'm not even sure that is appropriate.
Nowadays, I only use the IGS for encapsulation and preservation. I have never been fond of market grading, so I have been pretty much at odds with the numbers assigned anyway. Finally, I have learned to simply ignore them, for grading purposes - now my only use for them is to help determine when something MIGHT be worth looking at, for the purposes of acquisition.
<< <i>stman, I would have to put a 62 to 63 on that 85CC >>
62? sorry you're nuts.
I said this earlier, and will say it again, this coin is in no way, shape, or form a 65. This coin is an excellent example of why I will not buy even PCGS/NGC coins without a rock solid return policy. Fortunately, this coin is being auctioned by Heritage, and while their scans lack in luster and color, they are very good for spotting contact marks and strike, which are the prime indicators in determining MS Morgan grades. I could see this coin being auctioned on eBay as "PQ for a 65" with a small, bad scan and no return policy and the buyer being stuck with a severely overgraded coin.
Another thing I want to emphasize is the fact that it is totally ridiculous for a third party grading company to assume the roll of coin appraisor. Let the market determine the value. If PCGS and NGC would simply grade each coin regardless of date or mint mark (as far as value goes) it would sure clear up the murky water that is out there now.
As far as scarcity of this date, this isn't a 93-S or 95-O. There were about 115,000 uncirculated 80-CC's in the GSA hoard, about 20% of the total mintage. All varieties were there, including this one, the various 8 over high 7's and so on. This coin is nowhere near being scarce, and can easily be found in true MS65 condition. There is simply no excuse for this horrible example of overgrading CC Morgans because they are in demand.
Lets remember that grading is still merely an opinion and perhaps with the CC Morgans there is alittle more subjectivity in the analysis in determining the final grade assigned to the coin.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.