<< <i>Gee look Ma, it's the other ACG apologist! >>
No one is apologizing. No one need apoligize. Hager can do as he pleases. Make up his own grading standards, slab altered coins, etc. Other than his mass marketing, he is no different than the thousands of dealers that populate the bourse of every show across this country.
I, for one, would still like an explanation for K6AZ's adhominem attacks on Hager. Can anyone enlighten me? He doesn't seem willing or able. >>
It looks as though you haven't been reading whats been posted for years on this board and others.
As far as the explanation for those "adhominem attacks",As you haven't read what's been posted before ,why should he rewrite it all again. Eric has only one problem.He has integrity. when he sees a wrong being perpetrated he does something about it.
He has never shied away from a hager .On the contrary,He has openly challenged a hager prove him wrong. He has stones.
<< <i>K6AZ, if you want to get the word out about ACG, why hide your feedback? To me, this is one of the best opportunities to publicly voice your concerns. When others click on your feedback, they will also click on AH's stuff, and judge for themselves whether the feedback was justified or not. You make excellent rebuttles with the feedback AH generates to you; why not publicly expose it for others to read as well? >>
There is a very good reason why I switched my feedback to private, and if you look at the totals closely you will see why. I am not going to discuss the reasons publicly, but I will say it is only going to be temporary.
I don't think any of us here are standing up for Hager or for ACG. They are indeed one of the most deceptive companies that has ever come into this industry. We can talk all day long about the unethical behavior of Mr. Hager but there is one simple fact that we're all forgetting, people are still submitting coins to him, people are still buying coins from him, and he is still making money. There is no stopping him unless you can successfully pass legislation that makes what he is doing illegal, which doesn't seem very likely. This industry is extremely subjective and you can often make a great deal of money on the opinion of another person. It is known in this market that ACG coins generally sell for far less than PCGS, NGC or ANACS coins. However, grading is not 100% consistent with any company. In Coin World I think one particular coin graded XF45 by NGC ended up in a VF25 PCGS slab. You cannot get Hager on his grading alone unless there is a perfect market standard for grading, which there isn't and there never will be.
There are 30,000+ ANA members and probably far more collectors than there are ANA members. The ANA's decision that Mr. Hager can't grade, in essence, is accurate according to ANA standards. It is not, however, accurate for the entire market. Most people agree that ANA grading standards are the most accepted standards but there is no law that mandates these standards and more importantly, there is no law that states exactly what each grade is supposed to look like.
The best you can do is educate people in a factual way with regard to ACG. Inform them of your own opinion on the matter and let the new collectors take shape. You would not buy a home without first doing your research, you generally would not buy a stock without doing your research, coins should be no different. We cannot protect everyone. There is a shark in each and every single industry. The only way to remove Hager is to get authorities involved but how? He obviously still has plenty of dealers submitting coins to him to keep him in business. How about you start with the dealers submitting coins to him, rather than Hager himself? Obviously there are others out there that either agree with his grading or are out only to hurt other individuals.
<< <i>No one is apologizing. No one need apoligize. Hager can do as he pleases. Make up his own grading standards, slab altered coins, etc. Other than his mass marketing, he is no different than the thousands of dealers that populate the bourse of every show across this country. >>
If there were thousands like Hager in numismatics, the hobby would be ruined. You are so far off base here it isn't funny. But going by your previous comments in other threads, I am not surprised. You are probably one of them.
<< <i>I, for one, would still like an explanation for K6AZ's adhominem attacks on Hager. Can anyone enlighten me? He doesn't seem willing or able. >>
Another very revealing statement coming from you. Let me see, why would I be so upset with Hager and ahcollectibles? Maybe because his employees are interfering directly with my eBay auctions. That is just one, there are other forms of harassment going on that I am not going to discuss publicy, but let me tell you, this guy is as sleazy as they come. And it looks like the sleaze is rubbing off on you.
<< <i>Karl, you are absolutely wrong. A coin either has wear and has been cleaned or it hasn't >>
that is true, but how does that make me wrong? are you telling me that pcgs does not slab bust halves w/ wear on them as unc? BALONEY. are you telling me that pcgs will not slab a cleaned coin as unc? BALONEY. & no, i do not mean accidents ,either. there is appropriate time & place for both scenarios, & pcgs will take either situation into account. tell me you have not seen a PR-63 coin slabed w/ obvious cleaning hairlines? it is not even close to being a "black and white" issue. it is completely, blatantly absurd to claim that grading of coins does not involve opinion & can be construed as a "black & white issue"!
<< <i>Finally, try selling a PQ original AU-58 capped bust half, lets say, for more money than a MS-63 dipped, lifeless capped bust half. Bet you can't >>
AHA! loki, the difference is that there, you are allowing the MARKET to grade the coin, which is much different than having a corporation w/ an extremely narrow view grade it.
<< <i>even though the majority of people would much prefer owning the AU-58 coin. Why can't you sell it for more money? >>
actually, i often see au-58 sell higher for ms-60, 61 or even 62. often!
<< <i>Because it's GRADED lower, that's why! So yes, grade IS an absolute characteristic of a coin imo. >>
nope, "preservation" may be inherent to the coin, but "grade" is just someone's estimation of the value of that coin, of which one part of the estimation is it's level of preservation.
hey k6az, i really think you don't realize that you & are on the same side. i utterly despize hager, w/ all my being, i bitterly dislike him. but again, like i said before, go after him where you can prove fraud, not where you have to rely on proving that his opinions are wrong. i just don't think that's a winning game plan.
for myself, i would love to see a numismatic market where hager no longer plays a part.
Karl, you, just as other ACG apologists do, you try to defend ACG by saying PCGS does it too. The issue here is not PCGS. The issue is Hager's blatant overgrading of coins and the harassment I have been subjected to at his direction. This original subject of this thread proves it. Of course, I expect you to come up with some legitimate reason why thesourceforu and ah-collectibles aren't related.
<< <i>just as other ACG apologists do, you try to defend ACG by saying PCGS does it too >>
you keep trying to claim i defend acg. where have i singled out acg as a viable, positive or even influential force in this market? i have not singled out acg at all! YOU have!!!
<< <i>The issue here is not PCGS. The issue is Hager's blatant overgrading of coins and the harassment I have been subjected to at his direction >>
2 totally separate issues. i've addressed #1 (overgrading), which is where we disagree, i don't think we disagree at all regarding #2.
<< <i>This original subject of this thread proves it. Of course, I expect you to come up with some legitimate reason why thesourceforu and ah-collectibles aren't related >>
that's just my point. you confused at least 2 board members by trying to association the "grading" issue w/ the relationship between thesourceforu & ah-collectibles. DIFFERENT ISSUES!
i personally have no proof whether thesourceforu & ah-collectibles, but if that is the next issue to address, then i would say, based on your evidence, i agree w/ you & that there is definitely fraudulent activity going on.
but this is entirely separate from "grading issues"
most idiotic thing i ever (which proves why in fact these instances like mine are unequivacle100% fraudulent in it's intent from the word go) about 3 years ago a collector brings by an acg 1880-o ms65 dollar he bought off ebay for a rip of a price of $3500+. he was not greedy and only wanted $3750 for it. (heh) well,when you own the company you slab coins with it's easy even at a little bodunk 10 table Sunday show to find the certain coins that you would already know are prime candidates to be these "foolers" to the unknowing. Then you,or your buyers simply attend shows,buy up loads of em each week and *poof* select your best fit "fooler grade" and self-service,slab your own coins,have others move em out, make a friggin fortune the devil's way. well, i told him the coin was a guaranteed original,uncleaned au59+ that pcgs would grade au58 as it did have full luster, a very strong strike, puffy round lustrous cheek,even semi-pl fields,not a single bag mark on the devices either side and viewing from arms length as you rolled it,it passed. BUT .02 of a millisecond under a halogen grading light *poof* you see the au59+ ever so slight circulation very light slide marks from a few pockets or old cash drawers for at least one day of it's time in commerce long ago. An argument ensues,choice words were exchanged. He was furious as he "knew his morgans" he had some pcgs,ngc,anacs and a handful of raw (shhhhh,keep this one a secret too) "select bu" au50 dipped dollars with him as well. junk,ugly commons for the most part ms61 to 64. i told him i'd pay $35 for the 80-o, (he didnt want to sell any others) though it was au and that was as near bu with no bad marks as you could get so it did deserve a premium over au money and someone on a morgan set budget would love to fit it right on it with others similar. he goes ballistic, more words. Then i challenged him to a bet and we did in fact write it up had it witnessed and it was on. the bet on me was i would pay him $4000 if pcgs graded it ANY mint state grade even ms60 and that the EXACT grade would be au58. the wager was $100 on him (his part of the bet and to cover slabbing and shipping cost) would be mine as well as the coin. he jumped all over it as he was sure it would grade at least ms64 which meant $4000 for a $900 coin. we carefully hacksawed the holder and flatheaded it apart, wrapped the coin securely in a non pvc, bubble mailer,inside a box and sent it registered insured for $5000 and declared same to pcgs on value and used the 5 day $35 premium service. we went to the post office together. well about 11 days later a flat little pcgs single coin package came back. didnt open it, made the call. (of course i already knew the grade) because i had already call rick to find out before they even return shipped. (heh) didnt take him 20 minutes here he was. handed him a single edge razor blade and said pop her open. he's smirking and smiling just knowing it at least went ms something. the rage and vermon that started spewing forth was worth the entire shows ticket price. and he wouldnt shut up either,fate had tore him a new bhole. of course i rubbed it in real good too. after about 10 minutes of mmm mmmm mmmm and pacing back and forth he grabs the slab and heads for the door. i said hold on jack that's my coin you lost fair and square and we headed for him. he slammed the coin straight down on the sidewalk the slab busted into a thousand pieces and the coin goes all over the concrete dinging and scratching it. he then said how everyone would hear of this, got in his car and peeled rubber. never saw him again. sold the coin in a coin net batch of avg au's for $13 a pop to the higher buyer at the time on coin net...yes,it's fraud and if someone would spend about $30g or so on private eye and spy work to document the modus operandi, subponea shipment records of where they go to (who's doing the selling of) this could easily be fed time for sure for quite a few
<< <i>Another very revealing statement coming from you. Let me see, why would I be so upset with Hager and ahcollectibles? Maybe because his employees are interfering directly with my eBay auctions. That is just one, there are other forms of harassment going on that I am not going to discuss publicy, but let me tell you, this guy is as sleazy as they come. And it looks like the sleaze is rubbing off on you. >>
Just out of the blue and without any provocation, Hager et. al. decide to single you out and attack your auctions. Your half truths put you right in league with hager. You are a wonderfully matched pair. Accusing other of being apoligists for Hager doesn't play anymore. Your hateful comments show you for what you are.
Uh huh. You almost sound like Hager's gofer Clayton. Hateful? LOL! Yes, poor poor Alan Hager is being viciously attacked by K6AZ for no reason! Stop it, I can't take it anymore!
What everybody seems to be hung up on is that grading is an opinion and AH should be free to express that on his slabs because it is a free country. Guess what? I agree! but.... As long as it is an HONEST opinion. A DISHONEST opinion is a misrepresentation, i.e. fraud, unethical. You guys are pretty smart & all, I mean just look at you, you know how to run a computer so why is this so hard for some of you to understand?
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
I guess I am the only one who sees Eric's real point. Its not PCGS vs. ACG, its not the Sheldon scale, its not NTC, its not AT, its not Littleton, tis not Coin Vault,
ITS HOW ACG/AH MARKET THEIR COINS RELATIVE TO MARKET ACCEPTABLE STANDARDS, WHICH ARE , NOW GET READY FOR THIS, MUCH, MUCH , MUCH TIGHTER THAN THEIR OWN. GET IT!!!!!!!!!!!???!!!!
wingedliberty did you not read my posts? Clearly I GET IT too. I may be missing the point but I think the point is that ACG INC doesn't grade cleaned pvc AU58's as MS65 because they don't know how to grade. AH is a long time coin dealer who attends more major shows than I've even heard of, he has even written several books on grading and probably has handled more coins than I have even seen. He well knows the problems that plague coins, after all he invented slabbing and sold the idea to PCGS. From his ME page; -He submits over 2000+ coins per month to NGC......... -He has the only FIVE NGC-70 canadian coins........ -He has over 500 NGC 70'S in stock......... -He has over 5000 NGC certified coins in stock at all times. Does this sound like somebody who can't tell the difference between a MS63 Morgan & a MS66 one? Somebody that doesn't know what cleaning scratches & PVC is? Don't let him fool you gentlemen, he has an eye for coins. He knows exactly what he is doing. How many dealers do any of you know that has even 100 NGC slabs in stock at one time, never mind 5,000 & 500 of those are the elusive MS & Prf 70? Is this a dumb, incompentant, no grading failure of a coin dealer? No, I didn't think so. So when ACG INC places a problem or overgraded coin in their holder they well know what they are doing in their deceit. The opinion expressed on the slab is not an honest one; it is AH expressing his opinion that he can get more $$ from a newbie on eBay if he calls it a MS 65 instead of an AU. Or MS65 DMPL instead of 64PL or whatever. It is a misrepresentation solely to put $$ in his pocket and that, my friends, is wrong wrong wrong.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
ACG does suck, but hit a local or national show and you will see overgrading and the hawking of cleaned and dubious coins by the truckload. It is all up to the buyer to know what the hell they are doing, or expect to see the bank account drained. Same concept in every other walk of life.
This upgrade, crack-out, unload on the unlearned is played by all dealers with all services to some degree. There is a santa clause in Numismatics and it is the mechanism with which people consistently make money selling coins.
Everyone seems to forget that Hager at one time claimed to have no interest in either Ah-Collectibles or ACG. That was before Eric dug up the records at the Flordia Department of Corporations and proved Hager to be a lair.
<< <i>Everyone seems to forget that Hager at one time claimed to have no interest in either Ah-Collectibles or ACG. That was before Eric dug up the records at the Flordia Department of Corporations and proved Hager to be a lair. >>
Alan Hager claimed to not be the owner of accugrade. He's not. His wife owns the stock. He just runs the place. AH collectible is not a registered d/b/a in Florida but it is most certainly Alan Hager. I don't recall any public denial of that fact.
You'll notice that K6AZ can not respond directly to my last post. He obviously began the tirade against Hager. Hager is the one with a well know name. To imply that somehow Hager just pulled K6Az's name out of a hat and without any provocation began attacking his auctions is obviously a bald faced lie. And, if he is lying about this, can you trust his word on anything else he spews?
You're so full of crap you are giving this thread a bad aroma. So, if someone puts up a website criticizing your product, that gives you the right to create bogus eBay accounts and trash his auctions? So tell us, which big eBay ACG pusher are you? Rettew? Come on, spill the beans.
You never responded to my question I asked you about the difference between PCGS & NGC DMPLs that you mentioned so how do we know that you know what you're talking about either?
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
Finally! K6AZ admits the he began attacking Hager without provacation! That he is the instigator! Then he whines because the guy may be retaliating. It took how many of his posts full of weasel words of obfuscation for him to partially admit his own wrong doing!
That, in and of inself, should tell anyone who will read through this thread what kind of coin dealer K6Az is and why he has come to these forums to promote his auctions. As tainted as they may be.
Yeah sure. Now you have really identified yourself as an ACG stoolie. So who are you? Clayton? Or one of the ACG pushers? One thing is for sure, you are a complete idiot.
To imply that somehow Hager just pulled K6Az's name out of a hat and without any provocation began attacking his auctions is obviously a bald faced lie.
4thStooge,
I guess you haven't followed the history here. From what I've seen, Hager didn't just pull K6AZ's name out of a hat. The Hager's know of K6AZ and even refered specifically to him in the recent ANA hearing (I really loved the part where Dianne thought K6AZ was a business and had to have it explained to her that its a call sign).
Finally! K6AZ admits the he began attacking Hager without provacation!
Afraid I can't agree with that. The sleaze factor Hager's actions bring to coin collecting is provocation enough.
Most of the knowledgeable people in this forum I think agree with K6AZ and would do it themselves if it wasn't for the time and effort required to shed light on people like Hager.
I for one applaud what K6AZ is trying to do for the hobby.
Until you can show me a way that K6AZ is being financially enriched by his actions against ACG, Allen, and AH-Collectables... ...anyone speaking ill of K6AZ personally for what he is trying to do here is showing how much of an idiot they really are. (it's better for a fool to keep his mouth shut that to open it and lose all doubt)
Finally! K6AZ admits the he began attacking Hager without provacation! That he is the instigator! Then he whines because the guy may be retaliating. It took how many of his posts full of weasel words of obfuscation for him to partially admit his own wrong doing!
4th stooge:
Eric is just doing what any good reporter would do when faced with such an obvious muckraking target. If my employer cared about this story, I can assure you I would go after it with gusto. The only thing that surprises me is with everything K6AZ has dug up that none of the newspapers or TV stations in Florida have jumped on such an obviously juicy story. I can only guess it's because they think the general public won't care if a few collectors get screwed, and it's to K6AZ's credit that he does.
After absorbing the opinions and the facts, it’s obvious that AH is less that ethical. A lot less. For a coin dealer to actually own a grading service for the coins he’s selling is about as big of a conflict of interest as you can get. This guy is going out and buying coins from the highest regarded grading services in the industry and re-slabing them with his own so called grade. I honestly don’t believe he is grading the coins. The other company is grading the coins. He is just taking that grade and bumping it up a notch in the sole interest of making a profit. This is fraud in my book.
Are the customers he is selling these coins to aware of the fact that he owns the grading company that supposedly “graded” the coins? I’ve never dealt with the guy but I wouldn’t hold my breath. They stick a number on them, nothing more. It’s one thing when you take a raw coin and say you subjectively think it’s a certain grade and try to sell it as such. But it’s another thing when you say “hey, this coin was graded by this professionally recognized company and I’m selling it for this low, low price”
In many industries it’s a law that you disclose any financial interest in another company that you are recommending. Many doctors recommend specialists and there are notices right there on the front desk that disclose a mutual financial interest. This is just one example.
I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if this guy goes down big time. Because coins can be considered an investment, I would imagine that the SEC or some other government organization would eventually get involved. It’s very common for this type of thing to go along for fine for years and then suddenly the hammer drops. We may be seeing this guy on the news sooner than you think. If K6AZ can gather the kind of evidence he has, imagine what the feds could do. They could be setting this guy up for the biggest fall of his life.
Just my opinion of course.
Thadd... Novice collector, occasionally selling some coins on eBay. Click HERE to see all my auctions.
You know, someone told me that you could clean silver coins with baking soda one time and I tried it out on a couple of common Washington quarters just for grins. It actually work pretty well but I don’t think I ever go out the ole loupe and saw the real damage I did to them.
Anyway, I remember trying it on a copper cent just to see what it would do. You know, it looked just like the one in the picture. It was the most horrible looking cent after that.
Thadd... Novice collector, occasionally selling some coins on eBay. Click HERE to see all my auctions.
that hager is despicable, disgusting, AND UNETHICAL, i completely agree.
really k6az, i am trying to help you out! by pointing out that if you try to base your campaign exclusively (or primarily) on acg's ability to grade, your fighting a needlessly uphill battle.
possible plan suggestion:
(a) attack them on the front of their poor performance (1) catching counterfeits (2) attributions. (b) get STATISTICS from dealers/collectors that show how often they agree w/ pcgs, ngc, anacs, icg (whatever you consider a "better" 3pg company), then get like STATISTICS for acg. compare, & let your audience draw conclusions.
i would avoid claims that "every acg coin is improplerly graded", or "i disagree w/ 100% of acg grades", because for a reasonable person, that is extemely unlikely & has almost no credibility.
example: i agree w/ pcgs overall grades about 75% of the time. 25% of the time, i think they botched it. w/ acg, i agree w/ their grades probably less than 5% of the time (ie. i believe they botch grades > 95% of the time). but if i or anyone else were to tell you "acg is wrong 100% of the time", my statement would be tough to believe to the wider audience, & detract from credibility.
just my thoughts, as i've said before, despite your (perceived) accusations that i'm an acg apologist, that could hardly be more untrue. but like i also said, their slabs don't bother me any more than pcgs slabs, it's hager that i can't stand, & yes, most of that has to do with his UNETHICAL policies.
1 more thing, dog97 finally got it right, when he emphasized "What everybody seems to be hung up on is that grading is an opinion and AH should be free to express that on his slabs because it is a free country. ... As long as it is an HONEST opinion. A DISHONEST opinion is a misrepresentation, i.e. fraud, unethical.", but that it is a whole lot more difficult to prove that someone intentionally misrepresented their actual opinion, since by def'n an opinion is something you can't prove. that's why i belive you need to base your arguments on concrete statistics which can be independently (& definitively) verified.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>Gee look Ma, it's the other ACG apologist! >>
No one is apologizing. No one need apoligize. Hager can do as he pleases. Make up his own grading standards, slab altered coins, etc. Other than his mass marketing, he is no different than the thousands of dealers that populate the bourse of every show across this country.
I, for one, would still like an explanation for K6AZ's adhominem attacks on Hager. Can anyone enlighten me? He doesn't seem willing or able. >>
It looks as though you haven't been reading whats been posted for years on this board and others.
As far as the explanation for those "adhominem attacks",As you haven't read what's been posted before ,why should he rewrite it all again.
Eric has only one problem.He has integrity.
when he sees a wrong being perpetrated
he does something about it.
He has never shied away from a hager .On the contrary,He has openly challenged a hager prove him wrong.
He has stones.
<< <i>K6AZ, if you want to get the word out about ACG, why hide your feedback? To me, this is one of the best opportunities to publicly voice your concerns. When others click on your feedback, they will also click on AH's stuff, and judge for themselves whether the feedback was justified or not. You make excellent rebuttles with the feedback AH generates to you; why not publicly expose it for others to read as well? >>
There is a very good reason why I switched my feedback to private, and if you look at the totals closely you will see why. I am not going to discuss the reasons publicly, but I will say it is only going to be temporary.
There are 30,000+ ANA members and probably far more collectors than there are ANA members. The ANA's decision that Mr. Hager can't grade, in essence, is accurate according to ANA standards. It is not, however, accurate for the entire market. Most people agree that ANA grading standards are the most accepted standards but there is no law that mandates these standards and more importantly, there is no law that states exactly what each grade is supposed to look like.
The best you can do is educate people in a factual way with regard to ACG. Inform them of your own opinion on the matter and let the new collectors take shape. You would not buy a home without first doing your research, you generally would not buy a stock without doing your research, coins should be no different. We cannot protect everyone. There is a shark in each and every single industry. The only way to remove Hager is to get authorities involved but how? He obviously still has plenty of dealers submitting coins to him to keep him in business. How about you start with the dealers submitting coins to him, rather than Hager himself? Obviously there are others out there that either agree with his grading or are out only to hurt other individuals.
<< <i>No one is apologizing. No one need apoligize. Hager can do as he pleases. Make up his own grading standards, slab altered coins, etc. Other than his mass marketing, he is no different than the thousands of dealers that populate the bourse of every show across this country. >>
If there were thousands like Hager in numismatics, the hobby would be ruined. You are so far off base here it isn't funny. But going by your previous comments in other threads, I am not surprised. You are probably one of them.
<< <i>I, for one, would still like an explanation for K6AZ's adhominem attacks on Hager. Can anyone enlighten me? He doesn't seem willing or able. >>
Another very revealing statement coming from you. Let me see, why would I be so upset with Hager and ahcollectibles? Maybe because his employees are interfering directly with my eBay auctions. That is just one, there are other forms of harassment going on that I am not going to discuss publicy, but let me tell you, this guy is as sleazy as they come. And it looks like the sleaze is rubbing off on you.
<< <i>Karl, you are absolutely wrong. A coin either has wear and has been cleaned or it hasn't >>
that is true, but how does that make me wrong? are you telling me that pcgs does not slab bust halves w/ wear on them as unc? BALONEY. are you telling me that pcgs will not slab a cleaned coin as unc? BALONEY. & no, i do not mean accidents ,either. there is appropriate time & place for both scenarios, & pcgs will take either situation into account. tell me you have not seen a PR-63 coin slabed w/ obvious cleaning hairlines? it is not even close to being a "black and white" issue. it is completely, blatantly absurd to claim that grading of coins does not involve opinion & can be construed as a "black & white issue"!
<< <i>Finally, try selling a PQ original AU-58 capped bust half, lets say, for more money than a MS-63 dipped, lifeless capped bust half. Bet you can't >>
AHA! loki, the difference is that there, you are allowing the MARKET to grade the coin, which is much different than having a corporation w/ an extremely narrow view grade it.
<< <i>even though the majority of people would much prefer owning the AU-58 coin. Why can't you sell it for more money? >>
actually, i often see au-58 sell higher for ms-60, 61 or even 62. often!
<< <i>Because it's GRADED lower, that's why! So yes, grade IS an absolute characteristic of a coin imo. >>
nope, "preservation" may be inherent to the coin, but "grade" is just someone's estimation of the value of that coin, of which one part of the estimation is it's level of preservation.
hey k6az, i really think you don't realize that you & are on the same side. i utterly despize hager, w/ all my being, i bitterly dislike him. but again, like i said before, go after him where you can prove fraud, not where you have to rely on proving that his opinions are wrong. i just don't think that's a winning game plan.
for myself, i would love to see a numismatic market where hager no longer plays a part.
K S
<< <i>just as other ACG apologists do, you try to defend ACG by saying PCGS does it too >>
you keep trying to claim i defend acg. where have i singled out acg as a viable, positive or even influential force in this market? i have not singled out acg at all! YOU have!!!
<< <i>The issue here is not PCGS. The issue is Hager's blatant overgrading of coins and the harassment I have been subjected to at his direction >>
2 totally separate issues. i've addressed #1 (overgrading), which is where we disagree, i don't think we disagree at all regarding #2.
<< <i>This original subject of this thread proves it. Of course, I expect you to come up with some legitimate reason why thesourceforu and ah-collectibles aren't related >>
that's just my point. you confused at least 2 board members by trying to association the "grading" issue w/ the relationship between thesourceforu & ah-collectibles. DIFFERENT ISSUES!
i personally have no proof whether thesourceforu & ah-collectibles, but if that is the next issue to address, then i would say, based on your evidence, i agree w/ you & that there is definitely fraudulent activity going on.
but this is entirely separate from "grading issues"
K S
<< <i>Another very revealing statement coming from you. Let me see, why would I be so upset with Hager and ahcollectibles? Maybe because his employees are interfering directly with my eBay auctions. That is just one, there are other forms of harassment going on that I am not going to discuss publicy, but let me tell you, this guy is as sleazy as they come. And it looks like the sleaze is rubbing off on you. >>
Just out of the blue and without any provocation, Hager et. al. decide to single you out and attack your auctions. Your half truths put you right in league with hager. You are a wonderfully matched pair. Accusing other of being apoligists for Hager doesn't play anymore. Your hateful comments show you for what you are.
Guess what? I agree! but....
As long as it is an HONEST opinion.
A DISHONEST opinion is a misrepresentation, i.e. fraud, unethical.
You guys are pretty smart & all, I mean just look at you, you know how to run a computer so why is this so hard for some of you to understand?
ITS HOW ACG/AH MARKET THEIR COINS RELATIVE TO MARKET ACCEPTABLE STANDARDS, WHICH ARE , NOW GET READY FOR THIS, MUCH, MUCH , MUCH TIGHTER THAN THEIR OWN. GET IT!!!!!!!!!!!???!!!!
Brian
Clearly I GET IT too.
I may be missing the point but I think the point is that ACG INC doesn't grade cleaned pvc AU58's as MS65 because they don't know how to grade.
AH is a long time coin dealer who attends more major shows than I've even heard of, he has even written several books on grading and probably has handled more coins than I have even seen. He well knows the problems that plague coins, after all he invented slabbing and sold the idea to PCGS.
From his ME page;
-He submits over 2000+ coins per month to NGC.........
-He has the only FIVE NGC-70 canadian coins........
-He has over 500 NGC 70'S in stock.........
-He has over 5000 NGC certified coins in stock at all times.
Does this sound like somebody who can't tell the difference between a MS63 Morgan & a MS66 one?
Somebody that doesn't know what cleaning scratches & PVC is?
Don't let him fool you gentlemen, he has an eye for coins. He knows exactly what he is doing.
How many dealers do any of you know that has even 100 NGC slabs in stock at one time, never mind 5,000 & 500 of those are the elusive MS & Prf 70?
Is this a dumb, incompentant, no grading failure of a coin dealer?
No, I didn't think so.
So when ACG INC places a problem or overgraded coin in their holder they well know what they are doing in their deceit. The opinion expressed on the slab is not an honest one; it is AH expressing his opinion that he can get more $$ from a newbie on eBay if he calls it a MS 65 instead of an AU. Or MS65 DMPL instead of 64PL or whatever.
It is a misrepresentation solely to put $$ in his pocket and that, my friends, is wrong wrong wrong.
This upgrade, crack-out, unload on the unlearned is played by all dealers with all services to some degree. There is a santa clause in Numismatics and it is the mechanism with which people consistently make money selling coins.
Tyler
if you buy something for $150, change the framing and sell it for $500 or $2500
and you do it all the time
and you continually do it over and over, what else could you call it?
<< <i>Everyone seems to forget that Hager at one time claimed to have no interest in either Ah-Collectibles or ACG. That was before Eric dug up the records at the Flordia Department of Corporations and proved Hager to be a lair. >>
Alan Hager claimed to not be the owner of accugrade. He's not. His wife owns the stock. He just runs the place. AH collectible is not a registered d/b/a in Florida but it is most certainly Alan Hager. I don't recall any public denial of that fact.
You'll notice that K6AZ can not respond directly to my last post. He obviously began the tirade against Hager. Hager is the one with a well know name. To imply that somehow Hager just pulled K6Az's name out of a hat and without any provocation began attacking his auctions is obviously a bald faced lie. And, if he is lying about this, can you trust his word on anything else he spews?
That, in and of inself, should tell anyone who will read through this thread what kind of coin dealer K6Az is and why he has come to these forums to promote his auctions. As tainted as they may be.
4thStooge,
I guess you haven't followed the history here. From what I've seen, Hager didn't just pull K6AZ's name out of a hat. The Hager's know of K6AZ and even refered specifically to him in the recent ANA hearing (I really loved the part where Dianne thought K6AZ was a business and had to have it explained to her that its a call sign).
Afraid I can't agree with that. The sleaze factor Hager's actions bring to coin collecting is provocation enough.
Most of the knowledgeable people in this forum I think agree with K6AZ and would do it themselves if it wasn't for the time and effort required to shed light on people like Hager.
I for one applaud what K6AZ is trying to do for the hobby.
Until you can show me a way that K6AZ is being financially enriched by his actions against ACG, Allen, and AH-Collectables...
...anyone speaking ill of K6AZ personally for what he is trying to do here is showing how much of an idiot they really are.
(it's better for a fool to keep his mouth shut that to open it and lose all doubt)
4th stooge:
Eric is just doing what any good reporter would do when faced with such an obvious muckraking target. If my employer cared about this story, I can assure you I would go after it with gusto. The only thing that surprises me is with everything K6AZ has dug up that none of the newspapers or TV stations in Florida have jumped on such an obviously juicy story. I can only guess it's because they think the general public won't care if a few collectors get screwed, and it's to K6AZ's credit that he does.
After absorbing the opinions and the facts, it’s obvious that AH is less that ethical. A lot less. For a coin dealer to actually own a grading service for the coins he’s selling is about as big of a conflict of interest as you can get. This guy is going out and buying coins from the highest regarded grading services in the industry and re-slabing them with his own so called grade. I honestly don’t believe he is grading the coins. The other company is grading the coins. He is just taking that grade and bumping it up a notch in the sole interest of making a profit. This is fraud in my book.
Are the customers he is selling these coins to aware of the fact that he owns the grading company that supposedly “graded” the coins? I’ve never dealt with the guy but I wouldn’t hold my breath. They stick a number on them, nothing more. It’s one thing when you take a raw coin and say you subjectively think it’s a certain grade and try to sell it as such. But it’s another thing when you say “hey, this coin was graded by this professionally recognized company and I’m selling it for this low, low price”
In many industries it’s a law that you disclose any financial interest in another company that you are recommending. Many doctors recommend specialists and there are notices right there on the front desk that disclose a mutual financial interest. This is just one example.
I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if this guy goes down big time. Because coins can be considered an investment, I would imagine that the SEC or some other government organization would eventually get involved. It’s very common for this type of thing to go along for fine for years and then suddenly the hammer drops. We may be seeing this guy on the news sooner than you think. If K6AZ can gather the kind of evidence he has, imagine what the feds could do. They could be setting this guy up for the biggest fall of his life.
Just my opinion of course.
Novice collector, occasionally selling some coins on eBay. Click HERE to see all my auctions.
1910 Lincoln Cent ACG "MS63 RB"
Took me 10 minutes to clean the mess off my screen.
Novice collector, occasionally selling some coins on eBay. Click HERE to see all my auctions.
Anyway, I remember trying it on a copper cent just to see what it would do. You know, it looked just like the one in the picture. It was the most horrible looking cent after that.
Novice collector, occasionally selling some coins on eBay. Click HERE to see all my auctions.
really k6az, i am trying to help you out! by pointing out that if you try to base your campaign exclusively (or primarily) on acg's ability to grade, your fighting a needlessly uphill battle.
possible plan suggestion:
(a) attack them on the front of their poor performance (1) catching counterfeits (2) attributions.
(b) get STATISTICS from dealers/collectors that show how often they agree w/ pcgs, ngc, anacs, icg (whatever you consider a "better" 3pg company), then get like STATISTICS for acg. compare, & let your audience draw conclusions.
i would avoid claims that "every acg coin is improplerly graded", or "i disagree w/ 100% of acg grades", because for a reasonable person, that is extemely unlikely & has almost no credibility.
example: i agree w/ pcgs overall grades about 75% of the time. 25% of the time, i think they botched it. w/ acg, i agree w/ their grades probably less than 5% of the time (ie. i believe they botch grades > 95% of the time). but if i or anyone else were to tell you "acg is wrong 100% of the time", my statement would be tough to believe to the wider audience, & detract from credibility.
just my thoughts, as i've said before, despite your (perceived) accusations that i'm an acg apologist, that could hardly be more untrue. but like i also said, their slabs don't bother me any more than pcgs slabs, it's hager that i can't stand, & yes, most of that has to do with his UNETHICAL policies.
1 more thing, dog97 finally got it right, when he emphasized "What everybody seems to be hung up on is that grading is an opinion and AH should be free to express that on his slabs because it is a free country. ... As long as it is an HONEST opinion. A DISHONEST opinion is a misrepresentation, i.e. fraud, unethical.", but that it is a whole lot more difficult to prove that someone intentionally misrepresented their actual opinion, since by def'n an opinion is something you can't prove. that's why i belive you need to base your arguments on concrete statistics which can be independently (& definitively) verified.
K S