Do you think the set registry idea is good for the hobby or bad or makes no difference ?
barberlover
Posts: 2,228 ✭✭
I don't really know myself but would certainly think it's created alot of competition to get top pop coins or to complete sets where there wasn't so much heated competition before.
Les
Les
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It's a very clever and successful marketing gimmick by the slabbers.
It encourages collecting plastic rather than coins.
It drives up prices to absurd levels, which one of these days will crash down. There will be fallout among all collectors.
It's strictly money driven. Why not just post bank balances instead?
K S
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
K S
there needs to be a poll to see how The Set Registry has changed collector approach to the hobby. are more collectors looking at raw coins? are more collectors submitting for their sets? have all of us been given an oppurtunity to see and acquire coins we otherwise would have missed? have we met people like dorkkarl and andy that we otherwise would have never known? have our lives been increased and enriched by the changes The Set Registry has influenced?
each of our answers to these questions and many more should tell us all something about our approach to the hobby and life in general. methinks there are some pessimists amongst us all!!
al h.
<< <i>I think it's bad:
It's a very clever and successful marketing gimmick by the slabbers.
It encourages collecting plastic rather than coins.
It drives up prices to absurd levels, which one of these days will crash down. There will be fallout among all collectors.
It's strictly money driven. Why not just post bank balances instead? >>
Ditto.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Good because it creates interest and is fun to compete against others.
Bad because it makes it really tough for the average guy to have fun in it. Let's face it you have to have some serious cash if you want to play this game and do a top set. I think this discourages a lot of people form it. I also think some people are only concerned with the grade on the slab and do not know or care about the coins in them. They simply want to have the best set regardless of cost.
I also think as m ore coins are slabbed and pops start going up, a lot of people will lose money which will give them a negative taste for the hobby.
Just my thoughts,
Jay
Because they can't be verified.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
To me it is an online, public, Whitman folder. It also gives me something to chat about with others of like mind.
There is no way I'll ever be able to assemble a #1 type set. Then again, I don't care. I'm happy with the coins I can buy and really try to find nice coins for the grade.
That's another part of the inherent problem, or cons if you will. It really encourages an over-emphasis on subtle grade differences while entire sets can come back with different rankings daily if resubmitted.
Let's face it, you're not really always getting a coin that is nicer to look at or is even better than a duplicate issue with an inferior rating -- yet that is what the registry system is based on in part. What you are getting, in part, is a corporate-backed number and premium for resale. I think that's what turns some people off, and where the danger lies. It's like working towards the highest rank high-tech stock portfolio that can change daily or be filled with accounting fraud, overly value issues, and worse: a ranked comparison to other such portfolios in a "stock set registry" based upon subtle differences of profitability or financial health.
The registry set is probably overall good for the hobby -- but there are real cons I believe. It's especially bad when such items are hyped, just like in anything where serious money is involved and the risks downplayed or selfish assertions pushed forward.
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<< <i>Bad because it makes it really tough for the average guy to have fun in it. >>
I'm an average guy, actually below average. But, I'm having a blast with it. I will never be #1, or even in the top 5 in proof Kennedys. Right now, I'm at #12 and maybe I might be able to claw my way in to the top 10 someday if I keep working at it.
The thing that makes it fun for me - and frankly gives me a sense of pride - is that I'm the only one ranked this high that doesn't own a single PR70DCAM. So, I guess what I'm saying is that fun is where you find it. I find it in competing against collectors who have lots of money to spend, and still staying on the first page of over 100 sets.
Russ, NCNE
Specialized clubs for the series you collect is a better way to go. I am a member of the Bust Half Nut Club, a club for serious collectors of bust halves by die marriages. We have a census of collections, and they are not controlled by 3-P grading, most members don't even use 3-P grading. The emphasis is on the study of bust halves. New discoveries, rarity ratings, and other bust half publications originate from the BHNC. Sharing information and having fun is a priority.
Specialized coin clubs can enhance your enjoyment of the series you collect, without having to rely on 3-P grading.
1) I don't want to let other people know what I have because it increases prices on coins in the series I collect when they come up for bid. It allows dealers to target certain collectors and hype coins they need for thier registery sets.
2) Some larger dealers are able to manipulate the prices on low population coins because PCGS does not always update the population reports after they grade & slab the coin. I know for a fact that PCGS will give some dealers time to market these "unreported" coins - thus allowing the dealer to command a higher price due to the artifically low population report. In my opinion this is fradulent.
3) Regarding modern Bullion & Commems in MS70 / PR70 grades, the mania that has driven the prices of these coins to current levels is one that will backfire on those who have paid 10X, 20X or more than what a MS/PR69 coins trades at. In my opinion, the owners of modern coins who paid these prices will live to regret it. The set registery is the marketing tool that has allowed this frenzy to occur. But, over time as more and more 70's are made, watch what happens to the prices. The 70 game is a house of cards.
<< <i>Some larger dealers are able to manipulate the prices on low population coins because PCGS does not always update the population reports after they grade & slab the coin. I know for a fact that PCGS will give some dealers time to market these "unreported" coins >>
That's a pretty serious allegation. I'm sure you have the proof to back it up, right?
The pop reports are updated every Thursday of every week. I guess the data entry clerk gets a list of specific coins not to enter? I wonder if that list is delivered by black helicopter.
Russ, NCNE
It's horrid if you are a collector who isn't interested in the registry. The registry idea puts more upward pressure on prices for the nicest material, encourages more and more resubmissions and increasingly ambiguous grading standards.
As a collector, I'm seeing more and more MS 66 & MS 67 slabbed type coins that IMO are clearly substandard for the grade. It has gotten so bad that I actually had a guy at a major auction house thank me for asking detailed questions about a lot in their auction. He told me that many of the calls he gets are "what is the grade on the coin & what do you think it will go for?"
I also agree that this contributes to the potential for dealer manipulation re the pricing of low pop high graded coins.
I have to wonder. In the late '70s and late '80s, when "major investment dollars" got into coin collecting, the 'investors' had their heads handed to them. I'm wondering if we will see history repeat itself.
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Before the creation of the Registry, I started collecting Lincolns in MS67RD. I could find some great coins at fair prices. Now, however, I’ve been priced out of the market for several issues and fear I’ll never be able to complete my short set in this lofty grade.
Of course, I can always sell what I’ve already acquired and pocket a tidy profit, but I’m then left with no coins.
of the modern desire for the highest quality pieces. Yes, collectors have always sought quality,
but before the proliferation of the grading companies the only effective way to obtain the best
quality in most cases was to look a many, many coins. This was an expensive and time consuning
process and it was difficult for the collector to know when he had looked long enough. This severe-
ly limited the demand and price of high grade coins. Few would put in the effort that was required
to find the "registry quality" coins. They would pay the price when they found such coins, but in
those days that meant a twenty or fourty percent premium rather than one or two thousand per-
cent. As coin valuations in high grade bagan diverging more and more it got increasingly difficult
to value higher grade coins and still the trend to higher grades was intensifying. The grading com-
panies were started to attempt to define these graduations and make coins more liquid and fungible.
To a large degree they suceeded at this task though it is not always apparent. What really caused
these "divergences" in price to increase was the advent of the internet and ebay. Now, rather than
look through endless rolls or hundreds of dealers cases it was possible to sit at home and click your
way to the best quality.
It was only natural that with many people attempting (and achieving) sets of the highest quality
that a way for them to "compete" or compare their achievements would evolve. If the grading com-
panies hadn't done it someone else probably would have. But this isn't really the point of the regist-
ries anyway... the point really is that people are trying to assemble such sets. The point is that it is
actually possible now where in the past it wasn't really for most collectors.
The question that should be asked is "Is the drive to obtain the highest quality coins good for the
hobby?" We each will answer this in our own way, but regardless how any individual answers, there
will be a new trend coming down the line eventually. Whether you see this as sliced bread or petrified
cow chips, all things must pass.
Is it good for the hobby ? I think it is.It has generated much interest in almost all series.Just look at all the newbies we've seen here.Personally it has made me focus and complete a set,something I failed to do before.It is only bad if your trying to compete with others for best set.
Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
It also is the worst thing to ever happen-exagerrated pricing, lack of material, the loss of the collecting concept (to a degree), etc.
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
I wonder if the registry isn't doing a huge favor for future collectors by causing the superb coins to be searched out and preserved.
BTW - I don't have any sets registered, but I can't imagine they would be anything but benign tools for collectors anxious to measure their progress. I think most of the heat of the argument aimed at the registries is probably misdirected from the population census that should be the more likely target.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>The set registry is by far the greatest marketing tool this hobby has EVER seen (more so than State Quarters IMHO).
It also is the worst thing to ever happen-exagerrated pricing, lack of material, the loss of the collecting concept (to a degree), etc. >>
It's surprising to hear one who makes a living selling high grade coins refer to exaggerated pricing, or have I misunderstood this?
Laura - I don't necessarily disagree, but what exactly do you mean by this?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
To add to Cladking's questions to Legend about exaggerated pricing, how about the listings -- have they ever listed a coin that was not undergraded? Even their morgans "should have" graded pl, or their pls are as deep as dmpls. I know Legend has a lot of fans, but I'm not sure if it is because of true customer satisfaction or brainwashing.
2 of these that come to mind are the Franklin halves and the Jefferson nickles, if you don't have to have the highest grade there are some better buys for collecting at 1 or 2 points down from the best that are still very pretty coins. From a collecting point of view If a 65 FBL or a 65 F/S is 50 % of the price of what it was a year ago, it still migh be just as pretty if you don't need a "top of pop" 67.
peacockcoins
Tyler
Makes no difference to me, or other who are not into it. Hey, I have the number one all-time finest coin collection, MY OWN.
By that I mean, there appear to be a whole new group of people who will buy the holder, not the coin. And then they pay record prices for those coins.
These people simply want to be #1 or high up. Sure, they are collectors, but to a purist, they really aren't. I don't think the word FUN is in their ego driven vocabularies.
As far as the pricing issue and what I pay, #1 I will pay stupid strong money ONLY for the ultra high end quality coins. #2 The prices I pay aren't dictated by me-its the market-and in Many cases, I think the prices are stupid too! Example: When I paid $21,000.00 for an 1907D 10C PCGS MS67, there were TWO other collectors right in there bidding with me. I happen to have a very deep pocketed customer who had to have the coin to remain #1. The coin was okay, so who am I to deny him? And who's also not to say that in 5 years, his set won't be worth 5x more?
One thing I do know, the market for the VERY FINEST IS DIFFERENT than the middle range material. Everytime I would think I'm buried, it seems to end up a good deal. Sometimes, I get VERY uncomfortable having to deal with it.
For all its goods and bads, the Registry concept is too strong to flame out.
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
-Aaron
However, for myself and many collectors like me who have a very modest budget, the Registry has been a wonderful way to meet other collectors who share my passion for Mercury dimes. The primary goal of most of this group is set completion. We share our finds and chase our dreams within our own budgets. The top spots in our Registry are so far out of sight that we are not affected by the cost of an MS67FB 1916-D or other rare coin. The Registry (AND this forum!!) has allowed me to meet a number of really wonderful collectors and also provided a place to locate, buy and sell coins that I did not have before. This has all been very positive for both my ability to locate coins and also share camarderie with fellow collectors. All in all, a very positive outcome for me.
All that said, I am in 18th place and it is all related to how much of the set I have acquired. I will never be in the top 5 and that is fine with me. I also know there are many, many finer sets that are a mix of PCGS and other coins (with the exception of the top set... wow!) so even if I were to be top 10, it would only be here and probably top 1000 in reality. I guess I am saying that it has been a really positive experience for me, but I do understand where the issues lie for others.
When I start a Registry set, I choose a 'classic ' series I like and and can afford, and I know before I buy the first coin, that the set will be at least in the top five. By choosing a set that will make the top five, I know I will have to purchase high quality, low pop coins, which will make me happy now and as well as later when I decide to sell those same low pop, high quality coins.
The Registry compels me to seek out the finest coins with a sense of order and where I can view my progress easily.
I am not Bill Gates, and have had to pass on some very high priced coins that I would have loved to own.
Knowing the approximate cost of a complete Registry set before you begin it, is the most important factor.
This has worked well for me as I check auction prices, dealer websites and the POP reports before I even attempt a Registry Set.
The only pitfall, has been the fairly new Cameo and Deep Cameo designations, which started as I was beginning my PR Morgan set.
After doing my ' research ' on the complete set, I knew that I would have a top five set, at a price I was comfortable with, but the Deep Cams and Cameos, have more than doubled my original estimate.
It sucks, because three years ago I could buy a PR 67 Morgan for approximately $10K. The same, exact coin in a new holder, which now has Deep Cameo printed on it, can cost triple the $10K.
At least these Deep Cams are the best of the best and people are paying the price, so I believe they are still a good buy, if the total mintage in that grade, ( non cameo ) is less than 5.
The Registry overall is good, if you have a game plan and stick to it.
<< <i>The set registry is by far the greatest marketing tool this hobby has EVER seen (more so than State Quarters IMHO).
It also is the worst thing to ever happen-exagerrated pricing, lack of material, the loss of the collecting concept (to a degree), etc. >>
Exactly. Well said Laura.
For me, the positive is that I am more able to explore my HOBBY by electronic means, internet, etc. It is through these boards, slab companies and the like that has provided much of the new resources available; coins, research, pricing, community, etc.
I have no interest in registry sets, some of the stuff I collect just doesn't into their niche. The negative and most grievous to me is the inflated prices/value. This has caused me to pull back and wait until the next decline (when; who knows?), or a sweet deal comes along with reasonable prices. Hey, I'm not talking top poulation material here. There is a trickle down effect in pricing, holding proportional to demand and supply. For me to purchase my remaining two "keys", if I can find them, I either have to be patient and wait this out, or play the game. I choose to wait and see, I could afford to smell the rarified air right now if I chose, but right now it Smells like a used bean burrito...a very bad bean burrito...
1. I don't believe that there is a way of objectively determining a ranking for an entire set of coins. I say this because grading has a subjective component to it and always will... subjectivity that is inherent to grading and then taking that subjectivity into a different setting that involves ranking collections based on numbers really doesn't work well.
2. Unfortunately, Americans are too caught up with rankings and numbers and other meaningless awards. Every College football season there is always a debate about which team should be number one... why do we need this debate in something that is suppost to be fun?
3. Do we really need the "keeping up with the Jones'" mentality in this hobby...I don't think so.
4. The best comment made on this thread in favor of the registry set concept was DHeath's remark about preservation. The only problem with that argument is and it really begs the question... How many original coins are dipped or enhanced in a vain attempt to get a higher grade? Is that helping preservation? I don't think it does...
I concede that the Registry sets are here to stay and I really hope that over time I can honestly say that I hope that there will be compelling reasons for me to reconsider my thoughts on this subject.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
if it is done within reason with coins that are worth almost as much out of the holder as in the holder THEN IT IS GOOD REALLY REALLY GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the problem is when people do the registry with coins and compete with coins that are worth much much less out of the holder than in the holder
then it is bad really bad.........................................................................
but eventually the market/any market finds its true level and there will be much crying and nashing of teeth
but such is life
sincerely michael