<< <i>If the raw coin was sold as an AU-58, and PCGS graded it MS64, what should the buyer tell the seller? >>
DHeath- I would tell them, "It is a very nice coin. Thank you for the prompt delivery. I hope we can do business again, in the future."
That seller had the same opportunity to have that coin authenticated and certified at PCGS/NGC as I had. The dealer chose to sell the coin RAW. I did not break his/her arm. If I am wise enough to walk the RAW coin through PCGS/NGC, at my own expense, and the coin grades higher than quoted by the seller, then good for me. I am not now, nor have I ever been, responsible for the grading skills (or lack thereof) of another dealer. Right?
If the transaction is a 10 day no questions asked return policy how has trust been violated if the coin gets returned to the seller in exactly the same condition as it was sent?
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
As I said, although it is no questions asked, the assumption on either side is that there is good faith. If I sold someone a coin for $5000, and they subsequently found that the going rate on that coin in that grade was $2000 to $3000, I'm sure they'd feel violated. Using the "business is business" argument, the buyer should only blame himself. IMHO, I also owe a duty to act in good faith. There are certain assumptions implicit in all contracts. One of the assumptions in such a return policy is that this is a legitimate buyers, not someone taking my coin on memo for ten days. If that were the case, would it be okay for him to take my entire inventory and return whatever he couldn't turn a profit on in ten days?
It appears the term "no questions asked" for the return policy may be throwing some folks. After reading this, I intend to modify my return policy to a full 10 day return period provided the buyer is acting in good faith. I will explain what I mean by good faith if anyone cares to ask me about it.
Consider what "no questions asked" could mean by folks wanting to interpret it as broadly as possible:
1. During the 10 day period a buyer could post the coin he just received in the mail to ebay and try to sell it for a nice profit in a 7 day auction and if it does not sell, simply return the stale coin to the seller.
2. A collector or dealer who just got the coin from me could post the coin on ebay and discuss it is a dog for the grade and ruin my chances of selling it elsewhere.
3. A collector or dealer could take my coin and place it in the Desert heat for 10 days so that it begins to change colors in my holder and if the colors appear ugly return my coin (monster color he could keep ) .
4. A collector or dealer could fill a table at a show with coins he "bought" a week before and return them all the day after the show if they did not sell for a nice profit.
AND, ON AND ON AND ON.
WONDERCOIN
3.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
"2. A collector or dealer who just got the coin from me could post the coin on ebay and discuss it is a dog for the grade and ruin my chances of selling it elsewhere"
"As I said, although it is no questions asked, the assumption on either side is that there is good faith."
Good faith regarding what?
"If I sold someone a coin for $5000, and they subsequently found that the going rate on that coin in that grade was $2000 to $3000, I'm sure they'd feel violated."
They shouldn't feel violated they should feel stupid for not researching a $5000 purchase before hand.
"There are certain assumptions implicit in all contracts."
If you've got to make assumptions regarding a contract the contract isn't worth very much.
"One of the assumptions in such a return policy is that this is a legitimate buyers."
What constitutes a legitimate buyer?"
"If that were the case, would it be okay for him to take my entire inventory and return whatever he couldn't turn a profit on in ten days?"
Only if you're naive enough to give him those terms.
Wondercoin
Correct...so if you've got a no questions asked statement in your sales pitch you need to consider what that might entail. If I give someone that type of clause as the longs as the item is return in the same condition it was sent (with respect to slabbed coins that includes the original, untampered with slab) I don't care if it went to the moon and back.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
The purpose of a return privilege is split between customer service in developing long term customers and an incentive for buyers or bidders to be more aggressive in their mail order (or online) purchases.
Dealers may or may not have thought out their individual policies, but if the policy does not include a sealed holder provision and is long enough to allow a walk-thru at a service, the dealer has no real complaint in principal. However, if you exercise too many return privileges vis a vis your overall purchases, you may become persona non grata for that reason. Taking a coin just to play it may lower the persona non grata threshold!
WOW THIS THREAD HAS BEEN AN EYE OPENER! I always thought that when I bought a coin I had bought it. It never crossed my mind to buy a coin and list it on eBay and if I couldn't sell it & make a profit then return it for a refund. That's sure nuff "working a coin" & I never heard of such. Like I said in this same thread when it was posted on the NGC board I offer a 5 day return and I don't care what you do with the coin during that 5 days but I didn't realize all this was going on. But if you can sell it on eBay or get PCGS to grade it for you in that 5 days then power to you. Like I said on the NGC board if you want to cherry pick me you can do it on your own time & on your own dime. Or do it within 5 days.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
I want my customers to be fully satisfied with their purchases.
My inventory is primarily unencapsulated.
Slabbed coins cannot be broken out and resubmitted for re-grade without the sellers permission.
I try to convey to the customers that the grade is largely unimportant. The simple bottom line:
Do you like the coin for the money?
That all being said and done, if the customer (normally not a dealer) is unhappy with the coin, I offer a refund for up to fourteen days.
Fellow members of the Professional Numismatists Guild offer the same.
If sellers feel they are being abused by purchasers, they will be less willing to do business with them. It cannot be open season on honest businesses.
Collectors have an obligation to be as honest as he expects the dealer to be. This is a hobby and not a financial tool.
Coins are returnable forever, if they are ever found to be counterfeit.
As has been said earlier, communication is fundamental to all successful transactions.
Successful transactions are the foundation of a good business.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
I know this will not go over well. Challenging a legend in the coin "business"
Forgive me but I have to talk. I am a nobody from nowhere.
These statements needed more clarification to be meaningful:
I want my customers to be fully satisfied with their purchases.....Thank You, you are right.
My inventory is primarily unencapsulated........ To each his own.
Slabbed coins cannot be broken out and resubmitted for re-grade without the sellers permission. After the sale?? forget it.
I try to convey to the customers that the grade is largely unimportant. The simple bottom line:
Do you like the coin for the money?..... Are you saying that none of your coins are graded? They just have prices? If so, What do you base the price on?
That all being said and done, if the customer (normally not a dealer) is unhappy with the coin, I offer a refund for up to fourteen days.... Very generous, again thank you.
Fellow members of the Professional Numismatists Guild offer the same...... OK
If sellers feel they are being abused by purchasers, they will be less willing to do business with them. It cannot be open season on honest businesses..... Agree, but Sellers that I have seen are very tough on buyers as well.
Collectors have an obligation to be as honest as he expects the dealer to be. This is a hobby and not a financial tool..... this statement makes me cringe! Collectors should be honest at all times with the seller. If the seller is a crook, do not buy from them....Ever.
Coins are returnable forever, if they are ever found to be counterfeit. Again thank you, but didnt you know it was counterfeit to begin with?
As has been said earlier, communication is fundamental to all successful transactions....... What does this mean?
Successful transactions are the foundation of a good business. What is a successful transaction?
Tbig...Yes, to save time, I am the guy who was in diapers when you were buying 1804 dollars.
pmh1nic, it is very simple to be obstreperous in a debate. It is much more difficult to thoughtfully consider the other side's position prior to countering. If you'd like to seriously address the issues set forth, I'm more than willing to address them.
<< <i>pmh1nic, it is very simple to be obstreperous in a debate. It is much more difficult to thoughtfully consider the other side's position prior to countering. If you'd like to seriously address the issues set forth, I'm more than willing to address them. >>
Man, o man. It's this late and you've got me reaching for a dictionary. . .
I understand what pmh1nic is saying. I don't know what in the hell RKKay is trying to say. Isn't obstreperous the bone disorder where old people's bones get old & brittle?
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
Comments
<< <i>If the raw coin was sold as an AU-58, and PCGS graded it MS64, what should the buyer tell the seller? >>
DHeath- I would tell them, "It is a very nice coin. Thank you for the prompt delivery. I hope we can do business again, in the future."
That seller had the same opportunity to have that coin authenticated and certified at PCGS/NGC as I had. The dealer chose to sell the coin RAW. I did not break his/her arm. If I am wise enough to walk the RAW coin through PCGS/NGC, at my own expense, and the coin grades higher than quoted by the seller, then good for me. I am not now, nor have I ever been, responsible for the grading skills (or lack thereof) of another dealer. Right?
If the transaction is a 10 day no questions asked return policy how has trust been violated if the coin gets returned to the seller in exactly the same condition as it was sent?
Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns
<
Consider what "no questions asked" could mean by folks wanting to interpret it as broadly as possible:
1. During the 10 day period a buyer could post the coin he just received in the mail to ebay and try to sell it for a nice profit in a 7 day auction and if it does not sell, simply return the stale coin to the seller.
2. A collector or dealer who just got the coin from me could post the coin on ebay and discuss it is a dog for the grade and ruin my chances of selling it elsewhere.
3. A collector or dealer could take my coin and place it in the Desert heat for 10 days so that it begins to change colors in my holder and if the colors appear ugly return my coin (monster color he could keep
4. A collector or dealer could fill a table at a show with coins he "bought" a week before and return them all the day after the show if they did not sell for a nice profit.
AND, ON AND ON AND ON.
3.
Not if he didn't disclose the cert #
"As I said, although it is no questions asked, the assumption on either side is that there is good faith."
Good faith regarding what?
"If I sold someone a coin for $5000, and they subsequently found that the going rate on that coin in that grade was $2000 to $3000, I'm sure they'd feel violated."
They shouldn't feel violated they should feel stupid for not researching a $5000 purchase before hand.
"There are certain assumptions implicit in all contracts."
If you've got to make assumptions regarding a contract the contract isn't worth very much.
"One of the assumptions in such a return policy is that this is a legitimate buyers."
What constitutes a legitimate buyer?"
"If that were the case, would it be okay for him to take my entire inventory and return whatever he couldn't turn a profit on in ten days?"
Only if you're naive enough to give him those terms.
Wondercoin
Correct...so if you've got a no questions asked statement in your sales pitch you need to consider what that might entail. If I give someone that type of clause as the longs as the item is return in the same condition it was sent (with respect to slabbed coins that includes the original, untampered with slab) I don't care if it went to the moon and back.
Dealers may or may not have thought out their individual policies, but if the policy does not include a sealed holder provision and is long enough to allow a walk-thru at a service, the dealer has no real complaint in principal. However, if you exercise too many return privileges vis a vis your overall purchases, you may become persona non grata for that reason. Taking a coin just to play it may lower the persona non grata threshold!
Peak Numismatics
Monument, CO
I always thought that when I bought a coin I had bought it. It never crossed my mind to buy a coin and list it on eBay and if I couldn't sell it & make a profit then return it for a refund. That's sure nuff "working a coin" & I never heard of such.
Like I said in this same thread when it was posted on the NGC board I offer a 5 day return and I don't care what you do with the coin during that 5 days but I didn't realize all this was going on.
But if you can sell it on eBay or get PCGS to grade it for you in that 5 days then power to you.
Like I said on the NGC board if you want to cherry pick me you can do it on your own time & on your own dime.
Or do it within 5 days.
My inventory is primarily unencapsulated.
Slabbed coins cannot be broken out and resubmitted for re-grade without the sellers permission.
I try to convey to the customers that the grade is largely unimportant. The simple bottom line:
Do you like the coin for the money?
That all being said and done, if the customer (normally not a dealer) is unhappy with the coin, I offer a refund for up to fourteen days.
Fellow members of the Professional Numismatists Guild offer the same.
If sellers feel they are being abused by purchasers, they will be less willing to do business with them. It cannot be open season on honest businesses.
Collectors have an obligation to be as honest as he expects the dealer to be. This is a hobby and not a financial tool.
Coins are returnable forever, if they are ever found to be counterfeit.
As has been said earlier, communication is fundamental to all successful transactions.
Successful transactions are the foundation of a good business.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
Forgive me but I have to talk. I am a nobody from nowhere.
These statements needed more clarification to be meaningful:
I want my customers to be fully satisfied with their purchases.....Thank You, you are right.
My inventory is primarily unencapsulated........ To each his own.
Slabbed coins cannot be broken out and resubmitted for re-grade without the sellers permission. After the sale?? forget it.
I try to convey to the customers that the grade is largely unimportant. The simple bottom line:
Do you like the coin for the money?..... Are you saying that none of your coins are graded? They just have prices? If so, What do you base the price on?
That all being said and done, if the customer (normally not a dealer) is unhappy with the coin, I offer a refund for up to fourteen days.... Very generous, again thank you.
Fellow members of the Professional Numismatists Guild offer the same...... OK
If sellers feel they are being abused by purchasers, they will be less willing to do business with them. It cannot be open season on honest businesses..... Agree, but Sellers that I have seen are very tough on buyers as well.
Collectors have an obligation to be as honest as he expects the dealer to be. This is a hobby and not a financial tool..... this statement makes me cringe! Collectors should be honest at all times with the seller. If the seller is a crook, do not buy from them....Ever.
Coins are returnable forever, if they are ever found to be counterfeit. Again thank you, but didnt you know it was counterfeit to begin with?
As has been said earlier, communication is fundamental to all successful transactions.......
What does this mean?
Successful transactions are the foundation of a good business. What is a successful transaction?
Tbig...Yes, to save time, I am the guy who was in diapers when you were buying 1804 dollars.
Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns
<
<< <i>pmh1nic, it is very simple to be obstreperous in a debate. It is much more difficult to thoughtfully consider the other side's position prior to countering. If you'd like to seriously address the issues set forth, I'm more than willing to address them. >>
Man, o man. It's this late and you've got me reaching for a dictionary. . .
peacockcoins
I don't know what in the hell RKKay is trying to say.
Isn't obstreperous the bone disorder where old people's bones get old & brittle?