Is a Seller Obligation to Inform a Dealer he's "working the coin"?

braddick

<FONT size=1>I asked this question over on the Registry side but would like additional input here:

Mitch- Maybe this should be a follow up Thread, but I've you got me thinking: If a Dealer/Seller offers a coin, raw, with a (let's say) ten day return, no questions asked, is it considered in poor taste for that buyer to walk it through PCGS without informing the Dealer first?

If so, that is news to me. Not that I would disagree- admittingly I haven't given it deep thought until now, either way.
Is it wrong for a potential new owner to try and work the coin while the Dealer has the buyer's funds in hand, and the buyer is working within that ten day (in this case, I've also heard of longer periods of "no questions asked" returns) period attempting to maximize the coin via PCGS? If it 'hits' the coin sticks. If not, the coin is returned with the buyer out the grading fee? </FONT><B>
</B>

SmallTownCoins

I see nothing wrong with that .... 10 days is 10 days, what ever is done in that 10 days is fair play.. my 2 cent's :-)

tradedollarnut

In most instances, you take the coin out of the holder and you own it. A good policy that protects all parties.

Perhaps you are talking about getting a pregrade [ie: a grade opinion as to what it would slab if submitted but without taking the coin out of the holder]?

RKKay

If the buyer is trying to get a quick hit, I feel it is wrong. The purpose of the return policy is to ensure the buyer gets the coin as described and that he/she is satisfied with it, not to speculate using the seller's inventory. It is akin to saying, "I'll buy this coin at your price, but only if it upgrades."

tradedollarnut

"I'll buy this coin at your price, but only if it upgrades."

Now where have I heard that before?

jbsteven

I have a 5 day return policy if the coin stays in the stapled flip or the slab. They take it out of the flip it is a Done Deal.

RKKay

Did I make that offer to you, TDN?

boz

I see no problem, if as you state you bought the coin raw. Especially if the seller, in his opinion graded it, and it graded lower, or worse.

RKKay

My return polcy is 10 days, no questions asked. However, in principle, I don't agree with the philosophy that it is okay to use that period with the sole intent being to get a big hit, raw or not.

kranky

I have mixed feelings on this one. I support the buyer's right to do itif there's any question about authenticity or alteration and the seller should be agreeable (and in fact, the seller ought to be the one sending it in anyway if the buyer wants it slabbed). But if it's only to see what the slabbed grade would be, I don't think that's fair to the seller. I assume if the coin is removed from the seller's holder, that ends the return privilege, so I don't know how you could return the coin once it's been through the slabbing process.

tradedollarnut

If I were a dealer and I sold a coin raw and someone did that and then returned the coin when it didn't upgrade, I would NEVER do business with that individual again. Unless specifically agreed prior to the sale, in my mind a return privilege is to allow you to decide if you like the coin - not if a grading service will bless it with a higher number. Just because the dealer has a few days with someone's money does not in any way compensate them for the hassle of sending the coin out and taking it back. And who's to say that the grading service didn't sneeze on the coin or the buyer didn't put a hairline on the coin when it was cracked out after not getting the desired grade?

DCAMFranklin

<< <i>In most instances, you take the coin out of the holder and you own it. A good policy that protects all parties.

Perhaps you are talking about getting a pregrade [ie: a grade opinion as to what it would slab if submitted but without taking the coin out of the holder]? >>






<< <i>If a Dealer/Seller offers a coin, raw >>




TDN- In Braddick's hypothetical situation, the coin is raw.

tradedollarnut

Yes - holder infers 2x2 or stapled flip.

Baley

oh, if it's broken out then it's a done deal. I dont think anyone's arguing that. but what if the buyer/submitter is going for a service crossover or designation or some other upgrade, with the stipulation at the grader that it had to be evaluated in current holder and only reholdered if the grade improved somehow? I don't see a problem with a buyer doing this once in a while. However, if i was a dealer and one my customers did it too much, made lots and lots of returns on "shot" coins, I might suggest they shop elsewhere, since my coins do not tend to meet his satisfaction. also, it depends on the coin and other circumstances of the sale; you wouldn't bother with this scheme for a $50 coin, maybe for $500 to $5000, above that it would really be worth it if you scored the upgrade, depends on the buyer's luck with upgrades versus the cost of the fees, especially walkthrough, they'd add up. For a raw coin, again, a return here or there is ok, but as TDN says, probably at the cost of future business.

wondercoin

I made the comment on the Registry Board this morning that prompted this thread, because I know it is generally a bit unusual for dealers to permit customers to "work" their coins in a return period absent certain understandings, such as:

1. It is fine with the dealer that the customer try for a cross or improved grade.

2. Along the lines of #1, there is some added compensation to the dealer if the coin does "work".

TDN: Of course, in a cross situation, no slab changes unless the cross works, so the "coin out of holder means you own it" does not apply to a cross situation. A collector can get around that condition.

Now, you might ask why a dealer would even care about a collector attempting an upgrade during a 10 day return period:

1. THE COIN LOSES ITS FRESHNESS. Perhaps the dealer might like to try crossing their own coin if the sale falls through. If the grading company just saw the coin (especially a significant coin), that does not help any.

2. COLLECTORS FEELING THE NEED TO TELL THE WORLD THE COIN DID NOT CROSS. "Badmouthing" a dealer's coin after passing on it is a serious risk of this situation.

Personally, I try to ask the dealer in advance about the situation and work a fair deal up front. For example, once Legend had an NGC-PR68 Liberty Nickel I needed for a customer in a PCGS holder for his collection. I offered to buy the coin if I could crossed to PCGS-PR67 or better. This essentially ensured 99% that I was buying the coin -yes, I could reap the benefits of an even cross to PCGS-PR68, but, I also would own the coin in a PR67 holder as well at the same previously agreed price. I thought this was a fair proposal, which Legend accepted, and I was able to "work" their coin while technically not owning it at the time. Of course, later that day, after submitting it, I owned it. My point is there are myriad fair ways to deal with a dealer's inventory where the intent is to "work" the coin for one reason or another.

Wondercoin

tradedollarnut

My point is there are myriad fair ways to deal with a dealer's inventory where the intent is to "work" the coin for one reason or another.

Yup - if pre agreed.


Braddick's scenario was for a raw coin - not a cross situation.

drainbamage

The old saying of "Buyer Beware" must also apply to the seller as well. To do such a thing has honestly never crossed my own mind. I guess I am just not that devious. But I know many a soul that would throw all manners out the window the instant that you waved a dollar under their nose.

If I am forced to sit here and think of devious things, I would worry more about a person switching coins and then demanding their money back.

pmh1nic

If it's a "no questions asked" return policy and the coin is returned in absolute same condition then I don't see a problem with it. A buyer may do this for reasons other than to make a quick buck on an upgrade (to verify grade, verify authenticity or both). Both the buyer and seller pay a price but it's part of the cost of doing business. Of course if a seller has a buyer that repeatedly does this he may want to sit down with that buyer to discuss new terms .

coinguy1

When I was still at NGC, we learned of dealers who were getting coins on approval from other dealers and sending them to NGC as regrades, in the hopes of receiving upgrades. I can't remember the details, but one of the dealers whose coin was resubmitted, found out about it and was NOT pleased.

I believe that in the old days, coins which were resubmitted in the holders, did not receive new ID numbers. Partly as a result of the shenanigans I just mentioned, the policy was changed and regrade coins now receive new/different ID numbers.

In answer to your question, Pat - I believe that unless permission is asked of and granted by the dealer, the coin should not be submitted for grading or regrading. A return privilege is generally granted in order to allow the perspective buyer an opportunity to decide whether he wishes to purchase the coin, not to allow him to try to profit on it.

Tonekiller

>>>>In answer to your question, Pat - I believe that unless permission is asked of and granted by the dealer, the coin should not be submitted for grading or regrading. A return privilege is generally granted in order to allow the perspective buyer an opportunity to decide whether he wishes to purchase the coin, not to allow him to try to profit on it. <<<<


I would agree with Mark on this. If you want to play the game then at least share in the winfall if the coin upgrades.


TBT

Zerbe

I don't believe the coin should be let out of your hands or sight even.
You do not 'own' the coin and should and could be liable for any inadvertant damage caused to the coin, while it is out of your hands. ACHOOOO !

coinguy1

Bless you Paul, for your sneeze, your post and your enthusiasm.

DHeath

Without prior agreement, in my mind I don't own the coin until I agree that it is acceptable, or until the examination period has expired. Until then, the coin still belongs to someone else. During that time, I have no right to act as the owner unless I fully intend to buy the coin.

DAM

A buyer may do this for reasons other than to make a quick buck on an upgrade (to verify grade, verify authenticity or both).

Since the original topic dealt with a raw coin, I feel anything the buyer does to verify the grade or authenticate the coin would be alright. If the coin is damaged or lost as a result of this attempt, the buyer is responsible.

As for slabbed coins, that's a different story.

scher

Im with Coinguy...honesty is the best policy..if it was my intention to get it in a different holder ..I would discuss it upfront..i might even ask the dealer to send it in for me and pay the fees myself..providing i still got the coin if it upgraded or crossed.. deal with people you trust and buy coins you like ..thats always worked for me..
bruce Scher

braddick

If it is considered unethical for the Collector to solicite outside "help" (via the Grading Service) to determine if he wants to keep the coin and really should decide on his own, why is it standard to offer a TEN day return privilege? After all, can't the Collector decide pretty much when he receives the coin whether he likes it or not and whether he's going to keep it or return it? Why is TEN days offered (or more, in some cases) unless it is expected the Collector may seek out, at his expense, outside professional analysis of the coin?

RKKay

I offer 10 days, because it ensures that there is no issue as to whether the time has elapsed (i.e. from mailing, from receipt, etc.) and because a collector might change his mind a few days later. My 10 day "no questions asked" policy does not apply to a coin bought at a show. What's the difference between this and a show? When I'm sending the coin in the mail, I understand there is going to be a period of time in which I won't have the coin for sale. At the show, I may lose a sale if someone takes the coin and a subsequent potential buyer can't see it. Would I take back a coin at the show if returned the same day? Quite possibly. Would it avoid the situation in which a buyer may try to flip the coin and then return it when he/she couldn't? Probably not, but that is part of trying to be fair in dealing. Sorry for the long winded diatribe.

DAM

Pat,

I think your original post has been clouded with issues concerning slabbed coins. I'm sure some would feel the same way regardless. Perhpaps a seperate thread dealing with slabbed coins would be appropriate.

coinguy1

Pat, our standard return privilege is 5 business days (I think ), though we grant extensions if clients request it. Here are some reasons why a client might require more than a few minutes or days to make a decision:

1) Some clients might be out of town when the coin arrives or leave shortly afterwards.

2) Some clients like to show their coins to friends or other dealers to get opinions.

3) Some clients are very deliberate in making their decisions and prefer to "sleep on it" for a few days.

4) Some might have to ponder a potential sale/trade of another coin in order to make a purchase.

There are probably other reasons, as well, such as extremely busy schedules, having to make sure the wife is out of town in order to write a check in secrecy, etc.

And, in case someone is getting ready to ask - to me, there is a big difference between showing a coin to someone else in order to get a second opinion, vs. sending it in to a grading company for grading and allowing it to be out of your possession/sight.

We have had clients ask permission to send a coin for crossover, with the understanding that they will pay the fee and keep the coin if it crosses. But, I don't think things like that should be done without prior approval from the coin's OWNER.

If a client wants to be sure a coin is genuine, again, that is something to address with the owner of the coin.

wondercoin

"Why is TEN days offered (or more, in some cases) unless it is expected the Collector may seek out, at his expense, outside professional analysis of the coin?"

Pat: Quite simply to afford the collector enough time to decide if the purchase is right for him. I often need a few days myself to chew on a difficult purchase for my personal collections. By "difficult", I mean a coin offered to me at very strong money for the grade, or a coin with borderline quality for the price, etc. Sometimes you simply need a few days to see if the coin is right. This has nothing to do with the separate issue of then trying to make the coin something different, like a designation improvement or a higher grade, etc. I know of one dealer of fine coins who has a position that if you try his coin at a grading company you own it - plain and simple.

Wondercoin

walkerman

This is the reason I limit returns to 48 hrs. That is time enough to thoroughly examine the coin. If the buyer notifies me within 48 hrs that he is not satisfied I return their money immediately upon receiving the coin back with no further conversation. This effectively stops these shenannigans.At coin shows I offer the crackout specialists 85% buyback before the end of the show if it is returned in a holder by the same grading service.I don't demand the very same holder.Many play this game.when the coin comes back I win when it doesn't apparently they do. For buyers to expect dealers to provide a backstop for them so they have no risk whatsoever with everything to gain is unreasonable or as the British would say not good form.

topstuf

I'm with the "if it's pre agreed" camp.

When I am buyer, I tell the seller I only need ONE day ret'n priv. Actually I ....REALLY....need about 10 minutes or less.

I would appreciate knowing if someone is going on vacation and I do the same. Seldom happens but did one this year where I let the seller know that I would be away POSSIBLY when it arrived. It got here before I left and I sent the MONEY ORDER .....before..... I left.

I offer 5 days. I encourage COMMUNICATION. Outta holder....SOLD! Staples tactfully replaced ALMOST in the right place.....SOLD! Over 5 days......SOLD!

UNLESS................pre arrangements have been made.

Typetone

Here is my opinion also posted on the set registry:

As a customer I will work with the selling dealer on PCGS submissions. Usually, it works as follows:

For regular priced (for the grade) certified coins, there is normally not an upgrade issue. The dealers I buy from know what they are doing. They are not offering upgrade candidates at regular prices.

For PQ priced raw or certified coins I will do one of two things. First, I might pay up and buy it and take a chance on the upgrade myself. If it doesn't upgrade, and I don't want it, I will offer it back usually at a lower price. Part of the PQ price IMO is an option to try for the upgrade. I think it is unethical to try for the upgrade and then return it if it doesn't go w/o disclosure. At the same time, before paying the premium I will want the dealer to disclose whether they know if an upgrade has been attempted. Or, I might ask the dealer to resubmit it themselves with the idea that if it doesn't upgrade I don't buy it, but if it does, I pay an additional premium.

I suppose that if the dealer really doesn't care if you submit, fail to upgrade, and return, then you can ethically do it. My guess is that enough of a premium is built in those cases. However, I think you should still get permission first. Of course, if you are a good customer, and only do this from time to time, then the dealer will allow it. It is kind of another to give a discount for repeat business.

On NGC coins (which I don't collect), I will offer to buy the piece only if it crosses, and offer to pay the crossover fee. Dealers will often do this, as they often assert that there is no quality difference between NCG and PCGS graded coins. Only once did I get a coin like this.

Greg

Robgetty

Just so everyone knows, the coin in question that started this thread is mine. It was
a raw 1872-S quarter, and the front looked like a strong good, and the reverse looked
AG. I have a HORRIBLE track record for estimating how a coin will get slabbed. My concern
was that the coin did not have old cleaning (making it un-slabbable), and I wanted to
verify the Good grade independently.
I sent the coin in, got the slab, and told the dealer what I had done. Since the coin came
back AG, he is being considerate and taking a small bit off of the price. (Which I understand
he had no obligation to do; however, he just got another permanent customer for doing so.)

I would never buy a slabbed coin, and try to get a "quick score" by sending it in for an upgrade.
I think that it would not be proper. In this case, I just did not want to get stuck with a coin
that could not get into a PCGS holder. (My budget can't handle looking for another 72-S)
As far as doing this on raw coins in general; I don't know what the correct answer should be. I
don't have the grading eye to be comfortable dealing with raw coins over a hundred dollars or so.
I've bought MS coins that turned out to be whizzed, etc. so if I am buying from a new source, I
need a 3rd opinion. People with more experience probably don't need to do this for my reason.

DCAMFranklin

<< <i>If I were a dealer and I sold a coin raw and someone did that and then returned the coin when it didn't upgrade, I would NEVER do business with that individual again. Unless specifically agreed prior to the sale, in my mind a return privilege is to allow you to decide if you like the coin - not if a grading service will bless it with a higher number. Just because the dealer has a few days with someone's money does not in any way compensate them for the hassle of sending the coin out and taking it back. And who's to say that the grading service didn't sneeze on the coin or the buyer didn't put a hairline on the coin when it was cracked out after not getting the desired grade? >>




Important to know you, and anyother dealer, feels that way. If I buy a RAW coin, with a 10 day no questions asked return privilege, walked it through PCGS or NGC, regardless of the results, and found that the dealer objected to my doing so, then I woud NEVER do business with that dealer again.

Braddick posed essentially the same question across the street. It is interesting to compare responses.

tradedollarnut

DCAM - What the heck are you talking about? You take a raw coin out of the holder and you own it. You don't get to try and upgrade it and then return it if it doesn't upgrade. Show me any dealer in raw coins that does it differently. Once the coin is out of the holder, how does the dealer know it wasn't sneezed on, hairlined or subjected to noxious gasses ?

DCAMFranklin

TDN- What do you mean "upgrade"? The coin hasn't been graded. If I want to walk a RAW coin through PCGS/NGC to see that it WILL grade, then I will use that as a measure as to whether I keep the coin. You want to object to that, that's your privilege. And it is my privilege to do business with dealers that understand I might have PCGS/NGC grade the coin. They will understand that if the coin is a BB, then they will take the coin back on return and I am out the grading fee. It's not like we are talking about cracking a coin out of it's holder to try for an upgrade or a cross. Geez!

tradedollarnut

You quoted me - I was talking about returning it for lack of upgrade. Read the quote you italicized....it says "upgrade" and "higher number".

Do whatever you and the seller agree to - but absent full agreement, if you take it out of the holder, then you own it. If I was buying a raw coin, I would certainly want to make it contingent on getting it into a holder commensurate with the purchase price. But I would prearrange that with the seller and NOT take his coin out of the holder and walk it thru the grading service without his knowledge.

clackamas

>>>oh, if it's broken out then it's a done deal. (2X2's)

No way - if I buy a coin and its in a 2x2 I am taking the sucker out and giving it a look without the plastic coating. If I don't like it and return it to the 2x2 and return it to the seller I expect them to honor the agreement. Same goes with the old mint set put together holders, and anything else. If the seller gave me any gripe count me out as a buyer. Its too easy to hide hairlines, etc through plastic. You can't get the real feel for the coin though it, at least IMO.

Bear

What else did you expect from Mark. He was elevated to Saint Mark of Feldolini.

Who can argue with that kind of goodness for goodness sake.

DCAMFranklin

<< <i>

<< <i>In most instances, you take the coin out of the holder and you own it. A good policy that protects all parties.

Perhaps you are talking about getting a pregrade [ie: a grade opinion as to what it would slab if submitted but without taking the coin out of the holder]? >>






<< <i>If a Dealer/Seller offers a coin, raw >>




TDN- In Braddick's hypothetical situation, the coin is raw.


>>





<< <i>If I were a dealer and I sold a coin raw and someone did that and then returned the coin when it didn't upgrade >>



TDN- Yes, I did quote you. It seems time and time again, that you understood the hypothetical situation was about a RAW coin. Then you go on to speak of an "upgrade". Braddick's situation had NOTHING to do with an "upgrade". He was referring to buying a RAW coin, purchased with a refund privilege, walking it through PCGS/NGC, paying the grading fee himself, and if the coin will authenticate, will grade at PCGS/NGC, then accepting the coin. If not, utilizing the no questions asked return privilege to get his money back from the seller. Right??

Yes, both parties should understand the buying party's intent to send the coin through PCGS/NGC. However, walking that coin through PCGS/NGC should NOT negate the no questions asked return privilege. Once again, if a dealer used that excuse on a RAW coin sale to negate the no questions asked return privilege, then I would NEVER do business with that dealer again.

DHeath

If the raw coin was sold as an AU-58, and PCGS graded it MS64, what should the buyer tell the seller? It seems to me a double standard. If the coin was sold raw, I think it's fair to assume it isn't sold for the same premium it would bring in a holder. If the seller is unintentionally selling a holdered coin, isn't he/she entitled to a holdered price? Part of the discounted price a raw coin brings is the risk that it won't grade X at one of the services. It seems to me the buyer owes it to the seller to prearrange the submission, and be charged a fair holdered price that would be refunded should the coin not holder at the expected grade. Honestly, if you aren't confident in your judgement and willing to take the risk, why would you buy raw and not make this arrangement? Geez, it's the best of both worlds, a holdered coin at a raw price with someone to hold your hand.

tradedollarnut

DCAM - apparently we just have two different interpretations of what Braddick was asking!

I interpret the following quote from his initial question

attempting to maximize the coin via PCGS? If it 'hits' the coin sticks. If not, the coin is returned with the buyer out the grading fee?

as meaning getting an upgrade from the offered grade. The words "maximize" and "hit" to me mean upgrade. I also first read the thread on the NGC forum where he states

the Collector attempts to walk the raw coin through PCGS or NGC on a one day trip- looking for the score/upgrade

which also leads me to my interpretation of the scenario. That is why I stated that IF I were a coin dealer I'd have nothing to do with a person that takes my coin and walks it thru the services without my agreement and returns it if it does not upgrade! I think this is totally different than the concept of agreeing with the dealer that the coin will be returned if it does not grade at the sold grade. One is getting an undeserved 'score' and the other is simply getting agreed upon value.

sinin1

wow - 4 versions - altered story


raw coin -> walkthrough -> like grade then keep
-> do not like grade, then return
-> what happens if you add some nicks cracking out?


slabbed coin -> walkthrough -> cross at minimum -> like grade then keep
-> does not cross at requested, then return


slabbed coin -> crack-out -> walkthrough -> don't like grade ->return (would anyone actually do this?)
-> like grade, then keep

raw coin -> send in for grading to see if authentic, and grade -> like grade keep
-> bodybag or lower grade, return to talk to dealer for adjustment
one post said they did this -> another alternative would have been to pay the dealer to do it and agree on price before sending in -> if bodybag, then do not buy coin


Which version did you start with Braddick?

zenny

[qIf a Dealer/Seller offers a coin, raw, with a (let's say) ten day return, no questions asked, is it considered in poor taste for that buyer to walk it through PCGS without informing the Dealer first?

>>




"ten day return, no questions asked..."

If this is truly the return policy, why would it be outrageous, (or in poor taste) to pay a third party grading service for their opinion of the coin? The seller owned the coin first and had every opportunity to do the same, they either didn't or they got a result they didn't care for.

I really don't see how if the buyer goes to the trouble and the expense of, instead of showing it to a friend or dealer, showing it to a tpg, that somehow should be seen as taboo. This seems a perfect situation for a savvy buyer to take advantage of professional grading, (especially when dealing with a valuable coin).

I am not in the situation to be dealing with coins of a value that would merit such attention, but i reckon if I was I would be taking advantage of every opportunity that is out there.

z

Conder101

What confuses me about the attitudes expressed here is that if I get the raw coin and show it to my friends, maybe my local dealer etc and get their free opinions then I send the coin back based on their opinions that's OK. But if I pay a professional $50 to $100 for his opinion and send it back based on his that's dishonest. The way I see it the person who does the one day walkthrough and returns a coin is still out about $150 for the privilege of looking at your coin.

I do agree though that if the coin is removed from the dealers orginal holder without permission then the return privilege is void and the coin is sold.

RKKay

My return policy is my return policy. Obviously, the buyer can submit the coin to PCGS in that time. I can't prevent that, but it does not make me happy if the only reason my 10 day period is being used is to make a big hit, while at the same time not being straightforward about it. The intent of the policy is to avoid sticking a collector with a coin that he/she doesn't like. I want to place my patterns with people who enjoy them, and, in my opinion, my return policy is being misused if all the buyer is doing is trying to upgrade and flip a coin. I've sold to a few different board members who have gotten upgrades subsequent to purchase, and that is great. However, they bought the coin first. On a few occasions, one of these buyers has specifically asked if he could attempt to cross or upgrade a coin as a condition to buying the coin. I agreed, and appreciated that buyer's sincerity. Now, if he had not told me about the contingency, I wouldn't have been nearly as upset as with the hypothetical set out in this thread. The difference is that he intended to keep the coin if it upgraded, not to flip it for a quick buck. Some of you can't see that distinction, but there is a big difference from my perspective.

redcents

I just know many of you are going to slam me again but here goes:

As a Seller:
1). I offer a 14 day NO QUESTIONS ASKED RETURN POLICY.
2). I don't care what a buyer does with it while he has it. If he sends it back in the same holder (yes this is a big point - if a certified coin this seems ABSOLUTE, but if not... read summary) I give a refund without question immediately (not after 4-5 weeks like some other people in Dallas - I mean Highland Park) with NO hard feelings.
3). I even pay the buyers return postage to me for returning what he doesn't like. What the heck do I care about a couple of extra dollars to make someone very satisfied who was NOT SATISFIED with my product.
4). If I were to sell a coin to someone that indicated their intention to have it crossed for the same designation (e.g. FS-025.5) - BUT AT ANY GRADE - I would extend an even longer period for return (subject to negotiation) if say e.g. PCGS didn't think that the NGC (e.g.) coin was in fact the same particular variety.
5). I don't sell raw coins.

As a Buyer:
1). I have bought numerous times from many dealers and indicated to them my intention of crossing the coin to PCGS.
2). On several occasions I simply had the dealer send in the coins for me (after I paid the grading & shipping fees up front) and told him the minimum grade to specify and that if it came back at that minimum grade or above I'd buy it. The dealer & I usually agree on a grade and price up front with the understanding that if it comes in higher or lower we'll adjust the price in good faith accordingly. This is very fair for both parties.
3). Sometimes with some dealers we agree on a fixed price regardless of the grade that comes back as long as it's the same designation - e.g. buying an ANACS 1971-S Double Die Lincoln Proof and specifying that as long as PCGS grades it as a double die it's mine otherwise refund if paid in full (no matter how long it takes - although we usually do express or regular) or I just forgo grading fee if dealer sent it in before I paid (usually the case).
4). On the occasions that I can't work a deal with the dealer (whic is FAR less than 10% of the time), I see nothing wrong with sending in the coin for crossover and if it doesn't & you get it back in time returning it. HELLO - THAT'S WHAT NO QUESTIONS ASKED MEANS!
5.) In the case of raw coins (I've had very limited but extremely positive dealings) each dealer without question has told me that if it came back NOT graded by PCGS as the same variety (e.g. if the dealer asserted it was an FS-025.5 and PCGS thougt it was a plain old 1960-D) or not graded at all due to a defect (in color e.g.) they would unconditionally take it back ANY time. Is this not the ethical (oh no there's that word again) thing to do.

Summary:
There is no substitute for communication and trust. Yes I beleive some buyers can abuse some sellers goodwill. Yes I think to not be upfront with the seller is wrong. No, I don't think doing whatever you want during the return period is wrong. If you want a refund and the seller states you have so many days and the coin must be in original holder than it's up to you to comply. Of course in this day & age of digital identification, the holder thing is getting less & less necessary as a seller can image a coin and if it comes back looking different (in the seller's SOLE judgement - that's why it's in the buyers best interest to leave it in the original holder) - NO REFUND - it's that simple.

fishcooker

It's Business. Not friends. Not family.

With a 10 day return policy, Buyer can do with it as he pleases - as long as the terms are kept.

Likewise, given a recognized pattern, it's OK for a Seller to refuse future business from Buyer.

Why all the "if's", "then's", and emotions?

It's just ordinary business.

redcents

"Likewise, given a recognized pattern, it's OK for a Seller to refuse future business from Buyer".

This leads to a VERY subjective area if COMPLETE POLICY is not stated UPFRONT. On the whole I agree with you 100% but if a seller has a maximum # of returns they will allow from someone before "cutting them off" or a maximum percentage of coins that can be returned over some period of time (if it's the first order its 100%!) then an UNCONDITIONAL NO QUESTIONS ASKED RETURN POLICY is not really that and some idea of these "cutoff numbers" should be divulged e.g. "We offer a 7 day unconditional no questions asked return policy - UNLESS YOU RETURN MORE THAN (X) ITEMS OR UNLESS YOU RETURN MORE THAN (X) % OF THE COINS WE SENT YOU" Any wonder why no one EVER states this but keeps it a secret to launch on those they choose to (like that other big coin dealer in Dallas - I mean Highland park) ? I beleive a return policy MUST be carved in stone without hidden exceptions, disclaimers, or limitations that the buyer is not made aware of until it's too late.

RKKay

Fishcooker, I agree that it is business, but business also has trust as a cornerstone. Emotions are inevitable when that trust is breached.