Which would you rather have and/or have in your set -- MS67FB or MS68?

DMWJR · June 8, 2003 6:11AM

In my Roosevelt MS sets, I have two coins for some of the date/mm's: A 67FB and a 68 non-FB.

I like uniformity in my Roosevelt registry set. For me, that is perfection on the modern ultra grade sets. (I like older sets to have a variety of coins in them).

I have no problem with the white vs. color argument. I prefer white every time.

For me this is a difficult question if I had to make a choice in owning one or the other betwen the 67FB and the 68. For the set, I have to make a choice. I was wondering what other Roosevelt collectors (or anyone else who cares) think about it.

Doug

Datentype · June 8, 2003 6:24AM

Doug, I guess I'll be first up. As you know, i'm a major supplier of high grade Roosies from 65- present. My opinion is, go for the overall gem quality of the coin vs. lower quality and with a "little line" as D. Hall put it. There is something about the look of a real ms68 coin under magnification that gets me excited every time. People are going to respond with the buy the coin thing etc. I know it's the trend to make the nicest registry set point wise but why get what I believe is a lesser coin with equal set value?

Stooge · June 8, 2003 7:18AM

I recently won an auction from date-n-type of a 1989-D MS68 Roosevelt. I already have a MS67FB and found myself in this same dilemma, which coin do I want to have in my set. I would like to have the FB, but I want the 68

.

I suppose I will add the 68 and then wait till the pops level out and wait for the bonus points and the weights, but chances are that no one will have 100%FB so it won't matter. I also like the uniformity to a set and it doesn't matter that they are white or toned.

I would go with the 68 any day

Good question by the way and date-n-type...I can wait for those cert #'s, thanks

Paul.

onlyroosies · June 8, 2003 7:29AM

In my silver Roosie set I have 2 MS68's without bands, I also have both dates in MS67FB but I chose to keep the two
MS68's in the set. The MS68 is a far superior coin over the MS67FB and far rarer. This is an area with the merc dimes
and FB vs non FB and the PCGS bonus point system that I just do not understand. With the current bonus point system
for a FB merc the registry puts an equal weighting for a common 67FB and a far rarer 68 non FB. In fact an MS68 is
useless in the registry compared to 67FB and in some cases even a 66FB. You would think PCGS could devise a different
point system.

rainbowroosie · June 8, 2003 9:04AM

Totally, utterly, and completely DO NOT understand the FB movement -- a 68 is sooooo much cooler it is no contest.

MS67PLUS · June 8, 2003 9:08AM

Datentype is right the MS68 has that special look to it. MS68 any ole day

Colorfulcoins · June 8, 2003 9:29AM

...........no need to buck the trend =====> MS68 any day of the week!

DMWJR · June 8, 2003 9:30AM

My personal addiction to the registry sets is a consistent solid set of a certain grade. I can't do that with the Early Lincoln Proofs I love, but I chose to do that with Roosevelts. I had the 36-64 set all in 67. I was trying to complete the 65-present set in 67, with the exception of the most recent years which are easy enough to pick up in 68. Now my sets are a mess and I have lost my way.

I have admitted many times before, I like Roosevelts, but I was primarily playing the slab game with this set, with an eye toward an evenly matched white set of dimes 46 to present. I can't do that so I want to whine about it.

quarterjack · June 8, 2003 9:36AM

Doug, personally i'll always go for the higher grade. Actually i'll take an attractively toned coin over a blast white anytime, i feel it adds to the originality of it.

JMHO

Dave

rainbowroosie · June 8, 2003 9:40AM

I realize Craig made a fortune with his white 68FB, but nothing, NOTHING beats a real MS68 roosie with rainbow color.....takes your breath away....................

DMWJR · June 8, 2003 9:47AM

Dave I agree with you on most sets, expecially classics. These coins should have their own personalities. I just chose a different approach for the Roosevelts. I'm sure there are many others out there who like uniformity. There is a part of me that craves all of my things one certain way.

Incidentally, I have moved to Washington quarters to satisfy the urge to have a uniform set. I'll be really PO'd if PCGS makes up a designation for those!

I have all regular issues in PCGS MS66 except the 32-d, 32-s, 34-d, and 37-s. I have to admit that the selection is not out there to have solid white set in 66, so I haven't set that as a goal for this set.

MoneyLA · June 8, 2003 9:48AM

This thread is of extreme interest to me even though I am not a Roosie collector. This thread interests me because of its comparability to a discussion I had (and a dispute with other collectors) over what should be collected in the proof Washington series -- PR70 coins vs. PR69DCAM coins.

As you know from the weighting system in the registry, PR69DCAM coins have higher weights than PR70 coins, yet, PR70s are rarer for every date available.

I had a date run of PR70s from 1960 through 1964, and ended up selling my set which at the time was ranked as the #1 all time and #1 current finest set -- because I knew that the new weighting system would knock it out of first place by sets with PR69DCAMs.

Again the issue arises for discussion -- preservation vs strike -- which is more critical.

I will keep watching and reading this thread and I value your opinions.

cheers, alan mendelson

DMWJR · June 8, 2003 9:49AM

As far as the poll here, it is pretty evenly divided at this point. Interesting that the 67FB has not overtaken the 68. Is the market reflecting that the 68's are valued higher than 67FB's???

DMWJR · June 8, 2003 9:59AM

Alan, recently there have been several 60-64 quarters and dimes that are PR70 selling on EBay. They have not done well. I was fascinated to the point I was going to start buying some at these low levels just because I thought they were so severely undervalued.

When I am looking for or buying Washington Doubled Dies, strike is FAR more important than surface preservation. Virtually any variety collector will totally agree with me on that one. Otherwise, strike is important - but not critical - and I value surface preservation more.

Alan, what are your thoughts? I don't remember the other thread you are talking about.

onlyroosies · June 8, 2003 11:00AM

"As far as the poll here, it is pretty evenly divided at this point. Interesting that the 67FB has not overtaken the 68. Is the market reflecting that the 68's are valued higher than 67FB's??? "

I see its 15 for 67FB and 15 for 68. I'm only hearing The MS68 side. Those who are voting for the 67FB over the 68 I would
like to hear from you. Help me understand how a 1949D MS67FB Roosie (I'm just picking a common FB date) should be
weighted equally in the registry when you apply a bonus point of 1, To an MS68 Roosie which does not get the bonus
point because there may be a tiny break in the band. An MS68 is a far superior coin than an MS67FB. Now of course
the weighting and bonus points have not been determined as of yet by PCGS. I allowed the lowest possible number
for the bonus, which is 1, Right?.

Mind you I can understand giving a date that will be tough to locate in FB a bonus point of 1. A 1958 would be a good example.
A very common date in high grade yet a very elusive date in FB. IMO the pops will be relatively close in 67FB and 68 and the 1958
67FB will be highly sought after.

So MS67FB guys chime in.....

onlyroosies

Dimetime · June 8, 2003 9:25PM

To me a FB coin represents an early die state coin. Usually showing sharper details. Therefore I take a 67FB on the presumtion of a sharp, crisp strike. JMO J Voege

DeepCoin · June 8, 2003 9:31PM

I would guess that the Merc collectors would pretty much all choose the 67FB coin over the 68. However, the Merc series has a long history with the FB designation and the non band coins are seen (and priced accordingly) as being less desirable.

I have chosen to collect No Bands coins as a way of keeping my set affordable and still having some really nice coins. It is all in what you like. However, the market will determine the ultimate value and therefore cost to collect.

cladking · June 8, 2003 9:32PM

I like a nice sharp strike in any coin I collect. While the sharpness of the strike
of the bands doesn't matter a great deal more to me than other parts of the de-
sign, it is still a primary consideration. After strike then I desire a very clean coin.
I'm sure I wouldn't prefer ALL FB 67's to ALL 68's, but as a rule strike is more im-
portant to me.

jbsteven · June 9, 2003 12:06AM

As a Mercury collector I would choose the NON FB coin in ms68 (I have 3 of these already). the point difference in the registry game is not that big of a deal with a ms68 non FB coin. I prefer to have pop top non FB Mercurys anyway.

If anyone has any ms68 non FB merc for sale please pm me!

DMWJR · June 9, 2003 11:29AM

WOW! This one keeps swinging back and forth. Looks like I'm not alone in my confusion (which is nice for a change!).

MoneyLA · June 9, 2003 12:04PM

Doug the issue and discussion about Pr70 vs PR69dcam goes back more than a year ago, when PCGS first changed the rules for scoring the registry set grades.

I havent been following prices on pr70 coins on ebay, but thanks for the tip. I wouldnt mind picking up some pr70 washingtons at prices under what I sold my #1 registry set for some time back -- even if that's possible in today's OVERHEATED market.

regarding your question -- the issue boils down to this -- is a pr69dcam better than a pr70?? as I learned coin collecting, perfection -- pr70 -- is better. but I seem to have lost the battle.

cheers, alan mendelson

DMWJR · June 9, 2003 12:10PM

Alan, is the follow up arguement, " Can a PR70 be perfect without deep cameo contrast?"

I think these two questions form the crux of the situation.

MoneyLA · June 9, 2003 12:35PM

Doug, you raise a valid point, and perhaps the grading system should be changed to reflect both preservation as well as strike and die state. then a pr70 would have to have it all, and everything less than a pr70 would be missing something.

also, should the grading scale be changed the cam or dcam designation would be factored into the sheldon number, and a description in ADDITION to a number would be needed to clarify the grade.

frankly, I think that such a revised grading scale makes more sense than having a pr69dcam ranked higher than a pr70 in the registry... and apparantly with collector demand also.

cheers, alan mendelson

oreville · June 9, 2003 1:26PM

It all depends. On some dates, MS-67FB will be much more common than MS-68. In other cases such as the 1982 no P dime in which the great strike on the reverse plus the great strike on the obverse seems to be an impossible combination, I would certainly vote for a MS-67FB.

In fact, I have a feeling that the 1982 no P dime in MS-67FB may someday be a world class rarity??????????????????????????

onlyroosies · June 9, 2003 1:41PM

oreville, I have an 82 no P in MS67FB. A world class rarity would be cool.

DMWJR · June 9, 2003 1:41PM

Oreville, no doubt you are right about the 82 no p . . . but also probably the 82 WITH P. I'll take one of those in just a plain 67 anywhere I can find one.

newsman · June 9, 2003 3:13PM

How in the world can a coin be a 68 and not have a full strike? I thought that was a requirement for the grade.

MoneyLA · June 9, 2003 4:04PM

Newsman, Ive been told a coin can have a full strike, but the die may be worn and lacking details -- but the coin can still receive a high grade such as a ms68. I guess the same way a pr70 coin can lack a cam or dcam. any others on this one?? cheers, alan mendelson

PTVETTER · June 9, 2003 10:58PM

It's almost impossable to tell a MS67 from a MS68 but you can usually tell if there is FB or not.
That's why I would go for the MS67FB

No dought about it

MoneyLA · June 10, 2003 2:44AM

Pat wrote: "It's almost impossable to tell a MS67 from a MS68."

Pat, this goes back to a similar discussion months ago -- can you tell the difference between a pr70 and a pr69. I think I can and some other owners of pr70's have reported they can see differences also. Im not a ms collector, but Im going to guess that there is a visible difference -- when coins are properly graded.

cheers, alan mendelson

Colorfulcoins · June 10, 2003 2:49AM

Let me pose a more specific question, would you rather have a common 1959D PCGS MS67FB (probably 25-30 already and could easily be 50 or more by end of year - an easy FB coin one might say) or a 1959D MS68 of which there are 0 today (lets assume there was a couple).

Is it rarity, grade, or plastic Registry point value or some combination therein that makes you choose one over the other???

DMWJR · June 10, 2003 3:40AM

Craig, that is too easy. What if there were 30 MS68's and 30 MS67FB's?

Colorfulcoins · June 10, 2003 5:48AM

Doug - I like that thought.....course, if that were the case, I for one would be probably focused on MS68FB vs MS69FB.......wouldn't that be a pleasure?

As Manofcoins noted, a pop 30 of each is unlikely - but lets take a real example - say there are 7x 1951-S MS68's of which 3 are FB and 4 are not.........vs the MS67 pop which is 151 of which 8 are FB (so far). So, now the choice is a pop-4 MS68 vs a pop-8 MS67FB. This is again, probably the closest match-up date-for-date...the highest MS68 pop coin with a relatively low MS67FB.

No doubt both will increase buy say in 6 months, its changed to 5-pop MS68 vs 22-pop MS67FB (not unreasonable). Does your choice change?

If rarity and grade are high considerations - and pops change (a given), does ones decision to go with bands or grade change as pops/rarity/desirability change? Or even eye appeal in some cases............is it really dynamic?

DMWJR · June 10, 2003 6:10AM

Craig, you hit the nail on the head for me, and exactly why I made this post. I can't answer that question!

Interestingly, the vote is divided 23 to 23!

onlyroosies · June 10, 2003 7:11AM

Wow!! A great debate going on here. But you still need to take this one step further. First let me say that "yes" There
is a big difference between an MS68 and an MS67. I certainly can see the difference. Now,, A true collector (which I tend
to vier away from time to time) would more than likely choose the MS68. A far superior coin with superior eye appeal.
Especially in a series like the Roosevelt dime where MS68's are far and few between. I don't believe there will be any
date where there will be even half as many MS68's graded as there will be in MS67FB. I'm not talking about the pops
right now, I'm talking about the pops a year from now. Now the registry point chaser (which I tend to lean to from time
to time) will probably choose the MS67FB assuming it's equivalent to an MS68 with the bonus point in the registry. Now
if we only had a happy medium. There again I have to assume we all agree that an MS68 (I'm talking the whole Roosevelt
series now) is and will continue to be far rarer then an MS67FB. I believe this to hold true....And an MS67FB to be rarer
then an MS67. How do we continue this in the registry???

to be continued
onlyroosies

MoneyLA · June 10, 2003 8:31AM

This discussion is becoming clearer now and the points of debate are becoming concise and more meaningful. Good work.

I think what we are now starting to see is some sort of need for a new grading system that will take "finer points" into a grade, whether it be bands, or torches, or heads, or breast feathers, or cameos or even color.

Somehow we need to find a grading scale that will factor these fine points into a point scale so that there is no debate about whether an ms68 is better than a ms67fb or ms67fullhead or that a pr70 is better than a pr69dcam.

(good luck)

cheers, alan mendelson

DMWJR · June 10, 2003 9:48AM

Alan, I would disagree on any modified grading system. The number grade should be the average number acceptable to most collectors. Whether it has color, bands, torches, or whatever, I think that is going to vary too much between individuals.

Narrow the question to remove "non-coin" issues. Forget price, registry points, availablility, etc. Would you rather have a 68 or a 67FB?

I see the poll is now at 24 to 24 !!!! (interesting)

onlyroosies · June 10, 2003 10:50AM

Doug, You cannot remove the issue regarding registry points. Like it or not it has become a fact that the registry
is now used in determining a coins value. Why else are we seeing moon money paid for these top pop and pop
1 coins. As alan said, because of the 1 bonus point offered in the registry for a CAM and 2 for DCAM, What good
is a PF70, even though the PF70 may be far rarer. I agree with alan.

jbsteven · June 10, 2003 10:54AM

I can tell the difference from a 67 or 68 Mercury. On a rosie forget about it!

DMWJR · June 10, 2003 11:21AM

I understand what you are saying, but doesn't the vote of 24-24 say something also? Sure, there are a few wild people out there who will pay absurd prices for top pop moderns (like me in the Proof Roosevelts), but what about "mainstream" high grade modern collectors?

There is currently no point difference between a 68 and a 67FB, so I don't see that Registry points are relevant.

RegistryCoin · June 10, 2003 12:17PM

I think the 50/50 vote (at the moment) says a lot.

Colorfulcoins · June 10, 2003 12:21PM

Well folks, we're brginning to come full circle to many posts of just about 2 months ago - specifically just after 3/11/03 when PCGS announced their intention of designating FB coins. There was, from several, a concentrated cry of outrage over what this meant (or could mean) to collectors having non-band coins.....and lets face it, that probably really means MS67 and MS68 grade coins - no disservice to MS66 collectors intended. Anyhow, when someone pay $3000 or more for a non-band MS68 and a week later the FB designation is announced and their $3000+ coin isn't FB (and lets assume its a pop 2 coin of something), we then have a collector that's not happy. Why? Beacuse that collector looks for a frame of reference -and that reference is Merc dimes. Generally speaking, there's a 2-point difference between FB and non-FB Merc's. So for the sake of speaking (or typing), consider modifying this post to REALLY focus on Registry points as onlyroosies has indicated - now, do you choose a MS66FB or a MS68 non-FB? Is that reasonable? A poll would be interesting to see how PCGS should weight the FB's but my guess is that 2 points a la Merc's isn't the right solution. So, is it 1 point as has been bantered about in this post? menas a MS67FB = MS68 non-band point wise. So does that make the coin sell for the same price? What I'm suggesting is that suddently a $50 MS67 is now a $1000 MS67FB AND a $3000 MS68 is now a $1000 MS68 non-band? If so, give me a stack aof cheap FB dimes and can someone pls make me an offer for my MS68 non-band dimes :-)

Is this a win for collectors? Is this a win for PCGS? My answer is NO! MS68's should be values more than MS67FB's if they are rarer than MS67FB's. This incents collectors to pursue MS68's (and MS68FB's) as increment point coins over MS67FB coins. It keeps the Registry race close. It keeps coins coming into PCGS for MS68 and MS67FB designations. Collectors AND PCGS win. That's win-win and that's whet PCGS should strive to accomplish. For those that want FB sets - go for it. for those that have fat wallets to use a description taken from prior posts, go it it. The Series wins, PCGS wins, and collectors benefit. Let me clarify that - for those that have been around long enough to remember, you don't have to go back too many years to remember when MS67 Rosy's were pop-0 coins for some tough dates. It was impossible to complete a MS67 grade set as there weren't any graded MS67's. Today, MS67's are relatively common with low-end pop's in the 25-30 pieces and high pop's approaching 200 pieces. There were less than 20 MS68's for the series, today there are 2x that number. Now put on your 20/20 future-vision glasses, look 5 years ahead and how many MS68's will there be - and will there be one of more MS69's? You got them in the Merc's (39D is an example) why not in Rosy's? Setting a Registry point system is not aonly about today but about yesterday (poor old MS68 collectors), and tomorrow.

So, the challenge is for PCGS - and the collectors - to create a Registry weighting system for Rosy FB coins that breaks new ground, that keeps PCGS on the cutting edge, that incents collectors to pursue top notch Registry sets, and to KEEP SUBMITTING coins - MS67FB, MS68, MS68FB, and MS68 grade coins to PCGS to keep upping the bar. We know looking backwards at how it was done for the Merc Series isn't the solution - so, all you smart guys out there, weigh in with your thought on how we make this designation work, keep it hoest and fair and a win-wing for everyone (or at least as many as we can).

Where there's a will, there's a way....................and sorry for the monster post, gotta get off my soap box now, my brain hurts (and my 2 fingers that I use for typing :-)

onlyroosies · June 10, 2003 12:39PM

I couldn't have said it better colorfulcoins, Bravo

RegistryCoin · June 10, 2003 1:02PM

Yes, "poor ms68 collectors". I hope and trust that this isn't true, but I fear that standards may have a designed change to accompany the new FB grade, not to distinguish nice(er) coins, but to enhance interest in the series (through a devaluation of grading standards). This is to the disadvantage, to say the least, to those who have trusted the "former" grading scale/standard and, specifically, have nice 7s or have 8s, perhaps beautiful 8s, but lacking the fb desigination. The current changes in Roosie grading, I hope, will not be the drastic grading standard change that could and would redefine the grades, and make "obsolete" all the grades of all previously graded coins.

DMWJR · June 10, 2003 1:07PM

Now that was an excellent post!

What do we do from here -- keep spending our bucks purusing the best? I guess that is what I was doing yesterday.

Today, I'm sitting here fuming because three of the five coins out there that could improve my Proof Roosevelt set are PR70DC 99-01 that are for sale for $2,000 to $3,000. When did that crap happen? Where was I looking when the pricing bar got raised? It's not just one dealer either -- it's THREE of them! One big one went for $3,000 in the heritage internet auction tonight. One is on DHRC, and of course our old pal "certifiedmoderncoins" on EBay has one up there. Less than six months ago, I was setting a curve on these things at the $1000 to $1400 range. Decided to flip my lid and spend 1800 on a pop 1 1988 coin which is now a pop 4. Guess what though -- I could still sell it for what I paid for it!!!!!!

My the Roosevelt side of my brain looks like those scrambled eggs on drugs right now!

wondercoin · June 10, 2003 1:19PM

Craig: Good post.

The way I see it, there is the business of collecting/dealing in Roosies (and there are certainly some collectors in this series I believe for the profit motive, which I have no problem with) and the pure enjoyment of collecting Roosies. For those who simply enjoy collecting Roosies, what PCGS does with the Registry from here should be of little consequence. They can proceed to collect them in any manner they chose and might even start getting a great deal on MS68 jewels down the line, if the "biz of Roosies" determines they are not worth enough "points" without FB and prices fall on them. To the "business of Roosies", PCGS' decision on how to weigh the MS68 vs. MS67FB coins will be monumental. As several posters on this thread will acknowledge, many collectors pursue the coins (and will pay the highest prices for the coins) "with the most points". So, if PCGS over-rewards MS67FB coins, or under-rewards MS68 coins, it could have a serious impact on the $$$ bottom line. At present, the "heart" of my personal MS silver Roosie collection is a collection of Proof-like and Deep Proof-like coins I started assembling in the 1980's. Whatever PCGS decides, PCGS can have little impact on my personal collection, unless they start grading "MS67FBDPL" on the holder! Now, do you want to talk about a truly rare coin

Wondercoin

RegistryCoin · June 10, 2003 1:32PM

Positioning is everything.
The PCGS decision in comparing the ms67fb and the ms68 in the registry is huge - one point or two. Not just for past "investments" in 8s, but, if the registry gives a greater value to the 67fb, as compared to the 68, it is not recognizing the true rarity of the 8, imho. If standards adjust, and make an 8 a common coin, then the standard has been skewed, and respect, in this regard, is lost.

wondercoin · June 10, 2003 1:59PM

"Yes, "poor ms68 collectors". I hope and trust that this isn't true, but I fear that standards may have a designed change to accompany the new FB grade, not to distinguish nice(er) coins, but to enhance interest in the series (through a devaluation of grading standards). This is to the disadvantage, to say the least, to those who have trusted the "former" grading scale/standard and, specifically, have nice 7s or have 8s, perhaps beautiful 8s, but lacking the fb desigination. The current changes in Roosie grading, I hope, will not be the drastic grading standard change that could and would redefine the grades, and make "obsolete" all the grades of all previously graded coins."

Steve: You have really said a "mouthful" here.

But, to me, great coins will always be great. A lifeless MS67FB coin with "high Reg points" attached to it, will be easy to sell (and let go) to those chasing Registry points. A monster toned MS68 (non FB) will be easier to buy (and keep) when those chasing Registry points have no interest in it.

Wondercoin

MoneyLA · June 10, 2003 3:21PM

Colorfulcoins wrote: "MS68's should be values more than MS67FB's if they are rarer than MS67FB's."

Craig I agree with you but unfortunately that's not the way it is in other series that have had weighted registry points, for example, the proof washingtons.

In the proof washington series there are several pr70s that are rarer than pr69dcam and pr68dcam coins, but the dcam coins are valued more than the pr70s are.

if someone has the latest pop reports, please compare for me:

1960 pr70
1960 pr69dcam
1960 pr68dcam

1964 pr70
1964 pr69dcam

I think youll see there are more dcam examples, but they have higher values than the pr70 examples.

When I was putting together my #1 washington proof registry set, I had a date run of pr70s from 1960 through 1964. The 1960 had a pop of five and it cost me $500. The 1964 I believe cost me about $125.

rarity -- number of coins -- is now a secondary issue to point valuation in competitive registry sets.

cheers, alan mendelson

onlyroosies · June 11, 2003 1:24AM

1960 pr70 4
1960 pr69dcam 29
1960 pr68dcam 77

1964 pr70 30
1964 pr69dcam 67

DeepCoin · June 11, 2003 1:46AM

I think there is another long term issue that the Roosie collectors should think about. I know the issue regarding 68 versus 67FB is a big one with regard to how the Registry bonus points are awarded. However, I think it behooves all the Roosie collectors to consider the fact that in the Mercury series the No Bands coins have been completely marginalized. This is not a value judgement as I collect No Band Mercs. What I am saying is that some of the big firm, Whitlow comes to mind, have really nice Mercs but do not even stock No Bands coins as they cannot move them.

As you move forward into the future using a FB designation, I think serious collectors need to think about the long term implications. Just because NB coins have a second tier status in Merc does not mean that this will happen with Roosies.... but it could, especially driven by the Registry weights. Good luck with your choices!

Which would you rather have and/or have in your set -- MS67FB or MS68?

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