Again I asked where did I accuse Mr. Hall of anything? I merely stated that this sorta of thing creates the illusion of a conflict of interest. I have no proof of anything and I specifically stated that I was NOT accusing anyone of anything -- except how this might cause some people to doubt what Mr. Hall says.
If you buy a PR70DCAM state quarter from DHRC, you still have a PCGS certified PR70DCAM state quarter. If you later decide to sell that coin to someone else you will still be selling a PR70DCAM state quarter. There's no harm to the end consumer. No one is going to ask -- "hey did you buy that coin from DHRC, well then I'm not paying you PR70 DCAM money for it, it's probably just a PR69!"
I think Bumpy's post is very telling, assuming it's true, since I've never been inside PCGS's grading room. The most telling is the following;
1. Buy coins from a dealer based on information obtained in the grading room. If a grader finds out who a coin or group of coins belongs to while the coins are in the grading process, that grader cannot contact the submitting dealer for the purpose of purchasing the coins (or obtaining first shot, etc.) until 10 days after the dealer has received his coins back from PCGS.
Why would you even let your graders buy and sell coins and how would the graders find out who the coins belonged to?
<< <i>Why would you even let your graders buy and sell coins >>
That I do not have a guess for. I also don't know why 10 days.
<< <i>and how would the graders find out who the coins belonged to? Michael >>
If you submit your 1942 Mercury Dime, I am sure no one would know who's coin it was but if you submit your 1804 Dollar, someone might be able to figure it out. I am sure that in 99.9% of the cases, the anonimity would be effective. However, there are always those coins where, because of rarity or unique look, that will be an exception. A lawyer probably made them put that statement in.
Time sure flies when you don't know what you are doing...
I don't think the prices are way out of line for this point in the cycle. As far as I know, most 70DC statehood quarters are well over $1,000 for 1999 - 2002 pieces (can any collector of these confirm). It looks like the 2003 clads are going to be more common. Unless we get hundreds of each, I would expect them to settle in the $500 to $1000 range. Now of course DHRC is full retail pricing, but given that, the prices seem fine to me.
Also, let me add that the tighness of the numbers may just represent how a bulk submission was slabbed. Say 500 were submitted and 10 get the 70. Maybe all the 70s go together with the same numbers. Some like there sets with sequential numbers. So, maybe the submitter asked PCGS to number any 70s together.
Finally, why wouldn't a wholesale proof producer sell them to DHRC. If I specialized in making proofs, but didn't have a good retail customer base, the obvious solution would be to sell them to or consign them with a major modern retail house like DHRC.
I just don't see anything here to be upset about. DHRC has a stated policy and practice of selling high grade PCGS coins. That's all they are doing here.
I know I said you guys can bash David Hall & call him a crook all you want but comparing him to somebody convicted of murder is really wild. You guys are a tough crowd.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
I for one would like to see the name of DHRC be changed to VSRC (Van Simmons Rare Coins).
Van is really running the show of such coin outfit these days anyhow. He happens to be a good writer himself. I am surprised that his name is not promoted more for the benefit of CLCT.
guys I was just pointing out that its not prudent for me to buy at these prices with the 70dcams comming down the pike like a thundering herd...I have a few that should be 70's from 2003..but i gaurentee if subbmitted all would come back 69dcams
ID BET 500 BUCKS ON IT >>
This is the question in a nutshell. I don't pretend to really know the answer but I'd bet that if you took 100 original sets and submitted them that you'd get the same grading distribution that other submitters get. There can be a little variability due to chance and, yes, it's likely that some of the coins in both lots would be over or under- graded, but to get anything else would imply collusion of some sort.
Now bear in mind This test would require original sets. There are large buyers who cream off the best coins and sell what's left. These sets are not rife on the market, but they are out there. To really get a good sample you need to buy just a few at a time just as they were shipped by the mint. To really "know" a lot is original then it must have a gem. ...And having a gem is not really typical so it messes up the sample.
I the other day posted a 54 s/d nickel i felt was high grade enough to warrent price. I sent this out on a 7 day express monday and also requested "review" by David just to make sure i get a fair deal.
why does the market make me feel like the little guy has to goto these extremes to get a fair descion.
Comments
Again I asked where did I accuse Mr. Hall of anything? I merely stated that this sorta of thing creates the illusion of a conflict of interest. I have no proof of anything and I specifically stated that I was NOT accusing anyone of anything -- except how this might cause some people to doubt what Mr. Hall says.
If you buy a PR70DCAM state quarter from DHRC, you still have a PCGS certified PR70DCAM state quarter. If you later decide to sell that coin to someone else you will still be selling a PR70DCAM state quarter. There's no harm to the end consumer. No one is going to ask -- "hey did you buy that coin from DHRC, well then I'm not paying you PR70 DCAM money for it, it's probably just a PR69!"
I think Bumpy's post is very telling, assuming it's true, since I've never been inside PCGS's grading room. The most telling is the following;
1. Buy coins from a dealer based on information obtained in the grading room. If a grader finds out who a coin or group of coins belongs to while the coins are in the grading process, that grader cannot contact the submitting dealer for the purpose of purchasing the coins (or obtaining first shot, etc.) until 10 days after the dealer has received his coins back from PCGS.
Why would you even let your graders buy and sell coins and how would the graders find out who the coins belonged to?
Michael
<< <i>Why would you even let your graders buy and sell coins >>
That I do not have a guess for. I also don't know why 10 days.
<< <i>and how would the graders find out who the coins belonged to? Michael >>
If you submit your 1942 Mercury Dime, I am sure no one would know who's coin it was but if you submit your 1804 Dollar, someone might be able to figure it out. I am sure that in 99.9% of the cases, the anonimity would be effective. However, there are always those coins where, because of rarity or unique look, that will be an exception. A lawyer probably made them put that statement in.
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Also, let me add that the tighness of the numbers may just represent how a bulk submission was slabbed. Say 500 were submitted and 10 get the 70. Maybe all the 70s go together with the same numbers. Some like there sets with sequential numbers. So, maybe the submitter asked PCGS to number any 70s together.
Finally, why wouldn't a wholesale proof producer sell them to DHRC. If I specialized in making proofs, but didn't have a good retail customer base, the obvious solution would be to sell them to or consign them with a major modern retail house like DHRC.
I just don't see anything here to be upset about. DHRC has a stated policy and practice of selling high grade PCGS coins. That's all they are doing here.
Greg
<< <i>Who thinks that if the buyer cracks them out and resubmits them they'll get 70s again?
Yeah, right! I agree, there isn't much difference between a 69 and a 70.
PS I also dislike the poor grammar and spelling on these boards.
You guys are a tough crowd.
Van is really running the show of such coin outfit these days anyhow. He happens to be a good writer himself. I am surprised that his name is not promoted more for the benefit of CLCT.
So lets start calling the coin outfit VSRC.
It would be a good start.
<< <i>wow guys, great insights
guys I was just pointing out that its not prudent for me to buy at these prices with the 70dcams comming down the pike
like a thundering herd...I have a few that should be 70's from 2003..but i gaurentee if subbmitted all would come back
69dcams
ID BET 500 BUCKS ON IT >>
This is the question in a nutshell. I don't pretend to really know the answer but
I'd bet that if you took 100 original sets and submitted them that you'd get the same
grading distribution that other submitters get. There can be a little variability due to
chance and, yes, it's likely that some of the coins in both lots would be over or under-
graded, but to get anything else would imply collusion of some sort.
Now bear in mind This test would require original sets. There are large buyers who
cream off the best coins and sell what's left. These sets are not rife on the market,
but they are out there. To really get a good sample you need to buy just a few at a
time just as they were shipped by the mint. To really "know" a lot is original then it
must have a gem. ...And having a gem is not really typical so it messes up the sample.
I STILL SAY NONE WOULD BE HAD FOR ME.
maybe im cursed.
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
I the other day posted a 54 s/d nickel i felt was high grade enough to warrent price. I sent this out on a 7 day express monday and also requested "review" by David just to make sure i get a fair deal.
why does the market make me feel like the little guy has to goto these extremes to get a fair descion.
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill