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shame on you dhrc
pontiacinf
Posts: 8,915 ✭✭
pops way too high for this price!!! 
seriously...they are making em way better...way more have come from the floodgates...theres people trying ta dump their early years for what they can get just not to get the shaft...im suprised but I guess youll feel the waters till ya get what ya can.
I will personally pay 200 each
which is why I only have 1
seriously...they are making em way better...way more have come from the floodgates...theres people trying ta dump their early years for what they can get just not to get the shaft...im suprised but I guess youll feel the waters till ya get what ya can.
I will personally pay 200 each
which is why I only have 1
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
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Comments
Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the
moments that take our breath away.
peacockcoins
Who here has submitted coins and have gotten 5 PR70DCAMs in one submission? The odds are mind-boggling. I think based upon the percentages you would have better luck with a lottery. Anyone know the math -- thinking that 1-2% of all state quarters submitted for this year will be 70DCAMs, what's the numerical likelihood of hitting 5 perfect coins.
Michael
For some life lasts a short while, but the memories it holds last forever.
-Laura Swenson
In memory of BL, SM, and KG. 16 and forever young, rest in peace.
Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the
moments that take our breath away.
If there as accusation being made that they do submit directly and get sequential 70s, then its a serious one, and if true would obviously break PCGS.
I do believe David Hall when he says that they do buy PCGS coins outright and don't make their own.
I have no reason to believe that he is lying, considering he does not need to , since PCGS is so successful and David Hall is not starving or needs the money.
Brian.
No, the odds are against that. But you can believe someone submitted 1,000 under the bulk pre-screen and specified not to holder the ones grading less than 70 so if your 1% math holds up there's 10 in consecutively numbered holders.
will grade PR-70 then only a few hundred sets would be required to get a handful of top
grade specimens. These sets are sometimes broken up in much larger quantities than this.
I've seen bag sets of proof cents offered for sale (that's 5,000). While modern sets have
gotten difficult to obtain in significant quantities, many are busted up in huge lots.
2% would be a little high historically for the best proofs but processes change yearly and
the quality of the top coins fluctuates also.
Here are the sn's from that set:
71620682
71620690 8 oins later
71620692 2 coins later
71620693 next coin
71620697 4 coins later
Seems fishy to me, or there are some ultra lucky, or ultra great graders pre sceening coins.
<< <i>Here are the sn's from that set:
71620682
71620690 8 oins later
71620692 2 coins later
71620693 next coin
71620697 4 coins later >>
CHecking the cert verification for the some of coins inbetween shows a lot more 70's in there.
71620684 2003-S Arkansas PF-70
71620687 2003-S Arkansas PF-70
71620688 2003-S Arkansas PF-70
71620689 2003-S Arkansas PF-70
71620691 2003-S Maine PF-70
71620695 2003-S Illinois PF-70
I'll stop here but I think you get the idea. Those puppies are getting churned out like there's no tomorrow.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
You have to assume the cost of the proof sets in bulk are $17 x 200, or $3400. Then the grading fee of $1600. Doesn't that put the cost of those coins at $5000 plus shipping and labor? Perhaps the "make" rate for 70s is higher than estimated?
BTW - That's four coins in my example, not five. That should put the cost per coin at roughly $1250, or $6250 for the set.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
the top 2% will make PR-70 then one can simply send in the top 1% and
have relatively little fear of recieving any 69 grades. This also will make the
remaining 99% of sets more saleable. If all the top quality pieces are re-
moved then it's apparent to potential buyers. When only the very best are
removed it is much less apparent and in some cases of relatively little conse-
quence anyway. If these are all mixed up like they were submitted, my guess
would be that it was one of the larger retailers who don't specialize in moderns
who just went through their stock pulling out stuff that would go very high
grade.
That makes sense, and if your sucess rate were only say %25, the math works well.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
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We have had our differences and disagreements in the past but even in the tightest kool-aid drinking circles this type of evidence has to raise some doubt in your mind.
That's 11 PR70 DCAMs state quarters out of 16 coins -- that's just too amazing to be a bulk submission. Perhaps 1-2 PR70 DCAMS every hundred coins, but certainly not 11 or 16 in a row. That would be impossible in a bulk submission.
These coins were cherry picked and sent in. And if they were cherry-picked, whomever did it has one of the best eyes for modern proofs. Again, I ask, who here has ever made 11 PR70DCAMs in one submission?
As for this being circumstanial evidence, maybe so, but others have been convicted of murder and imprisoned/executed soleyl based upon circumstanial evidence. Ask Scott Peterson, he'll tell you about circumstanial evidence. And remember circumstanial evidence is just that --- evidence.
I think this is a little more then circumstanial evidence though.
All PR70 DCAMs
71620682
71620684
71620687
71620688
71620689
71620690
71620691
71620692
71620693
71620695
71620697
Michael
And those guys @ Enron, why would they rip off their own employees, they wouldn't need to -- they're already rich.
Try a different argument.
Michael
bag of Morgans and submit the best pieces. How does this differ? It doesn't appear
to be any kind of evidence at all to me. Until there is evidence, it's merely a fact or data
point.
<< <i><< I have no idea what goes on in the world of PCGS and DHRC but the phrase 'Appearance of Impropriety' comes to mind.>> stujoe, I have no idea what you mean by that comment. >>
What I mean is that when you are The Man at the top grading service and The Man at a coin dealership and you have coins like that for sale in your own holders, it looks bad whether it is bad or not. It has the appearance of being improper whether it is improper or not. If that wasn't the case, this thread would not be in existance..
Personally, I doubt there is anything shady going on but it is pretty easy for me to say that as it affects me in no way, shape, or form.
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<< <i>You guys can bash David Hall's company and call him a crook all you want & I don't care but I wish the coin Nazis would stop putting down the coins some of us like to collect. >>
For the record, they look purty to me.
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Where did I ever accuse of Mr. Hall doing something illegal, immoral or just basically hypocritical to even his own statements. I never said that there's evidence of Mr. Hall submitting these coins himself or even telling his graders to grade certain coins at certain grades. I simply said there's evidence which would tend to create the illusion of the act of impropriety. There might not even be an act of impropriety, but I certainly never accused Mr. Hall of something like that.
In order to be clear I am NOT saying Mr.Hall or one of his staff either at DHRC or PCGS choose certain state quarters themselves, gave them to another submitter who submitted them on his behalf and were given PR70 DCAM grades. I'm also NOT saying that Mr. Hall or anyone on his staff @ PCGS instructed other members of his staff to grade certain state quarters with the PR70 DCAM grades. I am also NOT saying that anyone who drinks kool-aid is blind, uniformed and basically an unintelligent. I am also NOT saying Martha Stewart is guilty of insider trading and I am also NOT saying the Enron guys cheated, swindled or ripped off any of their employees.
So to recap, Mr. Hall is an upstanding consumer minded CEO that runs his business with the best of intentions. Martha Stewart is a fine homemaker and a skilled stock trader and those Enron guys were performing cost cutting measures in Texas. And I don't like kool-aid.
Oh, yeah, one last thing, there really was a second gunman on the grassy-knoll.
Michael
<< <i>Baseball
Where did I ever accuse of Mr. Hall doing something illegal, immoral or just basically hypocritical to even his own statements. I never said that there's evidence of Mr. Hall submitting these coins himself or even telling his graders to grade certain coins at certain grades. I simply said there's evidence which would tend to create the illusion of the act of impropriety. There might not even be an act of impropriety, but I certainly never accused Mr. Hall of something like that.
In order to be clear I am NOT saying Mr.Hall or one of his staff either at DHRC or PCGS choose certain state quarters themselves, gave them to another submitter who submitted them on his behalf and were given PR70 DCAM grades. I'm also NOT saying that Mr. Hall or anyone on his staff @ PCGS instructed other members of his staff to grade certain state quarters with the PR70 DCAM grades. I am also NOT saying that anyone who drinks kool-aid is blind, uniformed and basically an unintelligent. I am also NOT saying Martha Stewart is guilty of insider trading and I am also NOT saying the Enron guys cheated, swindled or ripped off any of their employees.
So to recap, Mr. Hall is an upstanding consumer minded CEO that runs his business with the best of intentions. Martha Stewart is a fine homemaker and a skilled stock trader and those Enron guys were performing cost cutting measures in Texas. And I don't like kool-aid.
Oh, yeah, one last thing, there really was a second gunman on the grassy-knoll.
Michael >>
I think you've about covered it.
Aldous Huxley
Yabba dabba doo.
Fred Flintstone
Let's do the math for 500.
2% PR70DCAM = 10 coins
90% PR69DCAM = 450 coins
8% no grade = 40 coins
Costs
Proof Sets, Quarters only, $13.95x500=$6,975
Grading fees, $8x460=$3,680
S/H/I=$500 (WAG)
Total Cost = $11,165
Revenue
PR70DCAM, 10 x $800 = $8,000
PR69DCAM, 460 x $15 = $6,900
Returned Coins, 40 x $.5 = $20
Total Revenue = $14,920
Looks like a bulk submission to me, and the submitter has ample profit margin.
He's done nothing wrong and is doing nothing wrong.
The same logic would have the owner a Ford Dealership driving a Chevrolet.
peacockcoins
<< <i>What would you have David Hall's Coin Firm do? Sell NGC coins exclusively? >>
I wouldn't 'have' him do anything. He is his own man, he does what he wants.
<< <i>He's done nothing wrong and is doing nothing wrong. >>
I didn't say has done or does anything wrong. I agree with others who have said that they don't think he does do anything wrong.
<< <i>The same logic would have the owner a Ford Dealership driving a Chevrolet. >>
I think that is a little different kind of analogy. A better analogy would be...The same logic would have the Secretary of Energy not beig the day to day president of an oil company. Sure the Secretary can hold both positions and never do anything wrong but I still think it would look bad.
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Why is it "fishy" that he has a lot of high grade coins?If that is the case then why don't "we"make the same comments about other dealers?Buy a coin from him and then confront him with some type of evidence not accusations.
It's been done with Hagar and ACG.Do it with Hall and PCGS.Bet you won't have the same success.
Come on over ... to The Dark Side!
DH has an "almost 99.9%" impeccable reputation and appears to be a very savvy businessman and enjoys the respect of the numismatic community. The downside for DH seems too great for a $4000, probably much less, profit on one transaction.
There must be rational reason this occurred, and in this case I feel strongly that DH needs to address this and put it to rest.
Fratlaw, I respect you, but, like my wife you see everything through the eyes of a litigator. And before you infer a serious breach, I think you need more facts. Don't attorney's rely on more than one fact (cert#'s) before leveling an extremely serious accusation or inference of one.
As an attorney you should know the possible consequences to DH, PCGS and DHRC with this type of post. My question is what other facts have you verified? Did you even attempt to contact DH for an explanation? If you have, as any responsible attorney would, please provide us with the additional evidence you have uncovered. Seems to me (uneducated in the law) that DH could tie you up in court and cost you a tidy sum for yet unproven and serious "inferences.
GIVE US MORE FACTS!!! You could be correct, though I seriously doubt it. Facts Mr. Attorney!!!
You tread a very fine line........ it's even somewhat amusing to see the accusation put forth in such a manner that you retain plausible deniability. Somewhat akin to asking a question of a witness to which you don't need or want the answer - you just want the question in the minds of the jury.
Your calculations are based on purchasing 500 Sets of proof quarters therefore you're submitting 2500 coins. Based upon your assumptions of grades returned, that profit margin just went way up.
TDN,
When I commented that frattlaw had about covered it, I was, of course, referring to his a$$.
edited to say: maybe I misunderstood and brian's assumption is that only the apparently top 20% of the 2500 quarters would be submitted.
Aldous Huxley
Yabba dabba doo.
Fred Flintstone
Justin
Personally, in my mind, there is no conflict of interest legally. Many manufactuers own retail outlets for their goods. Even large oil companies own gas stations. This is just another example of that. There's no legal basis that I know of that would prevent a manufactuer from owning a retail outlet for their product.
However, many people aren't comfortable with that idea. And I can understand why. As Stujoe as said, it just looks bad. There's another point that is quite interesting, I believe that many numismatic companies prevent their employees from buying and selling coins. I know for a fact Superior does. I'm not sure if CU/PCGS does, but wouldn't be interesting if CU/PCGS had a policy that prevented their graders from dealing in coins, but allowed the President and CEO to do so.
And finally, I'm not being an attorney. I'm being one of those people/customers/coin collectors who think CU shouldn't be in the business of grading and selling coins, not because it's wrong, just because it looks wrong. If I were approaching this as an attorney, you would be reading my complaint, not my posts.
I repeat, Mr. Hall, CU/PCGS & DHRC has NOT done anything wrong, it just doesn't look good in my humble, non-lawyer opinion.
Michael
Baseball no offence taken
guys I was just pointing out that its not prudent for me to buy at these prices with the 70dcams comming down the pike
like a thundering herd...I have a few that should be 70's from 2003..but i gaurentee if subbmitted all would come back
69dcams
ID BET 500 BUCKS ON IT
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
I stand corrected, you did not start this thread, but it seems like many of your posts are critical of DH and the way he does business. You may have valid points, but I think when they get to what I consider serious acquisations, more care should be taken to ensure you stand on solid ground. As an attorney you are certainly more aware of the consequences of yet unproven inferences than the average person. That is my point. No disrespect intended.
TG
Graders!!!
PCGS Anti-Self-Interest Policy
PCGS graders cannot do any of the following:
1. Grade their own coins.
2. Grade coins they submit for clients or other dealers.
3. Grade coins they have a financial interest in (split-profit deals, etc.).
4. Verify any of the above coins.
5. Participate in any discussion whatsoever-inside or outside of the grading room-either before, during, or after the coins are in the grading process.
Fiduciary Responsibility
PCGS graders cannot use any information obtained inside the grading room before the information is available in the general marketplace. More specifically graders cannot do any of the following:
1. Buy coins from a dealer based on information obtained in the grading room. If a grader finds out who a coin or group of coins belongs to while the coins are in the grading process, that grader cannot contact the submitting dealer for the purpose of purchasing the coins (or obtaining first shot, etc.) until 10 days after the dealer has received his coins back from PCGS.
2. Sell or buy coins and/or coin positions based on information obtained in the grading room.
Any grader who has one substantial violation of item #1 or who shows a consistent pattern of violating item #2 will be immediately terminated."
Aldous Huxley
Yabba dabba doo.
Fred Flintstone