Mormon Gold
docday2003
Posts: 1,100
Hi, I was recently looking through the Red Book, and found some information on coins minted by the mormons in the 1800s. I was interested to know if these coins are certifiable by PCGS, and if so, what are the populations? I haven't seen any of them listed in the registry, yet it seems that they are as legitimate as California Gold Territorial issues. Any comments?
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Interesting: Although touted as being "pure" the coins are 90% gold, like all others.
peacockcoins
Interesting: Although touted as being "pure" the coins are 90% gold, like all others. >>
Just did some more searching, and it seems that the coins were minted in a mountain settlement where Utah now exists. It seems that they weren't particularly well educated or literate, and yet they had the audacity to produce the first $20 gold coins in the United States! Amazing. The purity is not a surprise since it seems that they just took the gold dust from California, and made it into coin. Now look at the values! Wow. Is it truly rare, or are there alot of rich Mormons who have bought them up?
Some pieces sell in the tens of thousands of dollars. I believe the $10.00 and $20.00 Gold pieces are the rarest. Also of interest and great worth amongst collectors are the first editions of the Book of Mormon which is Scripture the mormons use from Joseph Smith. I believe there are 6-12 original copies extant. Anyway, it is all good!
Tyler
<< <i>I don`t know the answer to your question but, the Mormon Gold look pretty nice to me. I`m sure it`s a fascinating history of Mormon expressing their autonomy from the rest of society behind their production of these pieces. Being originally from Ohio and being persecuted for there beliefs, they moved westward to Utah. In that way they could have the freedom of practicing their religon. Producing their own currency, I think it would be reasonable to assume, not only a means of excanging goods and services but as an outward sign of disassociating themselves from the rest of society. >>
CCR, thanks for the comments, I hadn't thought of that angle - using coins to forge their own identity. Interesting.
<< <i>Mormon territorial gold is very scarce. Rust rare coin in Salt Lake City specializes in mormon gold. Rust rare coin. They have a book dedicated to early mormon collectables, such as the gold, notes, etc.
Some pieces sell in the tens of thousands of dollars. I believe the $10.00 and $20.00 Gold pieces are the rarest. Also of interest and great worth amongst collectors are the first editions of the Book of Mormon which is Scripture the mormons use from Joseph Smith. I believe there are 6-12 original copies extant. Anyway, it is all good!
Tyler >>
Thanks for the link. However, all I see being sold are medallions. Do they offer rare coins? If so, where is that inventory listed? Thanks,
<< <i>The settlers were quite literate and placed heavy emphasis on learning. >>
Sorry if I misrepresented things, I meant that the settlers did not have access to alot of stuff to determine purity of coins etc. I suspect that alot of them were not well educated based on the era, and their immigrant status. However, I am not an expert....
Thanks
Tyler
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
sincerely michael
Link to Don Kagin. There are four pieces of Morman gold for sale on this inventory page. You will need a pretty big chunk of change to make a purchase.
Haven't dealt with D. Kagin, but he knows as much as anyone about esoteric gold territorials.
In this archived Goldberg auction lots 1137 and 1138 were for Mormon gold and even have Kagin numbers assigned.
I've done a huge amount of business with Don. He's one of the good guys.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
al h.
<< <i>The settlers were quite literate and placed heavy emphasis on learning. >>
An interesting side note on this topic is that the 1860 $5 Mormon Gold Coin has lettering from an alphabet that the Mormons created, the Deseret Alphabet. They even had children's books and some scripture translations into the new alphabet.
Edited to add: Here is a link to an old thread that I posted which in the third photograph has a more complete description of the 1860 coin and its Deseret alphabet inscription. Per the description the new alphabet was phonetic and created for the intent of helping non English speaking immigrants to learn English.
An exhibit of Mormon Gold
there is a short pargraph on treasure net (Baldwin Brothers and the stolen $10 Mormon Gold Coins) futher digging into the story is needed
but appear to be extremly rare.
As far as PCGS slabbing them i have no clue and agree with the legitimacy as territorial gold.
<< <i>
<< <i>I don`t know the answer to your question but, the Mormon Gold look pretty nice to me. I`m sure it`s a fascinating history of Mormon expressing their autonomy from the rest of society behind their production of these pieces. Being originally from Ohio and being persecuted for there beliefs, they moved westward to Utah. In that way they could have the freedom of practicing their religon. Producing their own currency, I think it would be reasonable to assume, not only a means of excanging goods and services but as an outward sign of disassociating themselves from the rest of society. >>
CCR, thanks for the comments, I hadn't thought of that angle - using coins to forge their own identity. Interesting. >>
While I can credit, to some small degree. the idea of Mormon gold as a means of disassociation from a hostile socio-political environment, my surmise is that the financial exigencies of a need for reliable specie had a more significant impact. That disassociation also invites a more focused association within their culture. These are two sides of the (double-entendre intended).
The coining of the 1792 H10c was promulgated by Washington to satisfy both these goals.
Are there any clues in the archives of the Mormon Church/community that date to this time?
she'll part with it and I'll have the resources to make the buy. If not it will go to auction. Sorry, but I don't have pics.
bob
First, there are many early gold coins in the hands of Mormon history/coin collectors, to be expected, but the rediculous skyrocketing in price was due to the territorial gold collectors...and the actually rarity of these pieces. There is a church museum in Salt Lake that has a display including all the Mormon gold types as well as the dies and minting equipment. It is amazing to see, even though the display is less than impressive. One of the few sets of American-ish dies that can be privately held.
Two, there are MANY more early Books of Mormon than around 15. I am aware of a single (very wealthy) collector near the Great Lakes that owns 80 copies. They are very spendy because so many people want a copy. I think the estimate of the 1830 Book of Mormon is around 500 extant. Book of Covenants on the other hand is VERY rare, not more than 20. The same wealthy collector has only 4 of these.
Early Mormons were very well educated for the time. The religion promotes education quite a bit and it was important to have educated people bring their knowledge to the Utah valley.
There are thought to be around 300 gold coins held by collectors, others are also held by the Mormon church.
The coins, which were expertly made especially for a territorial mint and were done to alliviate the lack of circulating coinage. They also were trying to support and promote the local economy. It was important in the area to establish a strong banking presence, which was probably another reason for the minting of the coins. They needed a legitimate hard currency that had real value.
They were NOT produced just because they were trying to separate themselves from the government, they really weren't. They did want to be recognized by the government as a territory and later a State. Keep in mind that Mormons weren't a cult trying to find a place out-of-the-way so they could participate in strange practices (that is probably the common view anyhow,) they were forcefully removed from at least 2 settlements, they were just trying to survive. Missouri actually had an extermination order out on them...they just wanted to not get hunted through the streets! The only way to do that at the time was remove themselves from the general population. This animosity was partly due to polygamy, a practice that existed in early Mormonism, which ironically existed at least in part for practical reasons. The men were killed by mobs and families united under a single man so they would be cared for. Shortly after moving to Utah poligamy was outlawed, even though there are extremist factions that stilll exist, they aren't connected to the Mormon Church.
Maybe I haven't been reading my catalogues carefully enough.
I just heard more about the history, the culture and the cost paid for human and spiritual longings, than I heard throughout the entire last campaign.
The coin angle is also more than moderately cool :
As referenced in my prior post above, the exhibit you refer to which includes "a display including all the Mormon gold types as well as the dies and minting equipment" is available here for viewing by clicking the link. I was able to get some decent close up photos of not only the coins and equipment, but also of the history and descriptions for the Mormon gold coins.
Below is the link again for those interested.
<< <i>This is a topic I know something about, I live in Utah.
First, there are many early gold coins in the hands of Mormon history/coin collectors, to be expected, but the rediculous skyrocketing in price was due to the territorial gold collectors...and the actually rarity of these pieces. There is a church museum in Salt Lake that has a display including all the Mormon gold types as well as the dies and minting equipment. It is amazing to see, even though the display is less than impressive. One of the few sets of American-ish dies that can be privately held.
Two, there are MANY more early Books of Mormon than around 15. I am aware of a single (very wealthy) collector near the Great Lakes that owns 80 copies. They are very spendy because so many people want a copy. I think the estimate of the 1830 Book of Mormon is around 500 extant. Book of Covenants on the other hand is VERY rare, not more than 20. The same wealthy collector has only 4 of these.
Early Mormons were very well educated for the time. The religion promotes education quite a bit and it was important to have educated people bring their knowledge to the Utah valley.
There are thought to be around 300 gold coins held by collectors, others are also held by the Mormon church.
The coins, which were expertly made especially for a territorial mint and were done to alliviate the lack of circulating coinage. They also were trying to support and promote the local economy. It was important in the area to establish a strong banking presence, which was probably another reason for the minting of the coins. They needed a legitimate hard currency that had real value.
They were NOT produced just because they were trying to separate themselves from the government, they really weren't. They did want to be recognized by the government as a territory and later a State. Keep in mind that Mormons weren't a cult trying to find a place out-of-the-way so they could participate in strange practices (that is probably the common view anyhow,) they were forcefully removed from at least 2 settlements, they were just trying to survive. Missouri actually had an extermination order out on them...they just wanted to not get hunted through the streets! The only way to do that at the time was remove themselves from the general population. This animosity was partly due to polygamy, a practice that existed in early Mormonism, which ironically existed at least in part for practical reasons. The men were killed by mobs and families united under a single man so they would be cared for. Shortly after moving to Utah poligamy was outlawed, even though there are extremist factions that stilll exist, they aren't connected to the Mormon Church. >>
Mormon Gold Exhibit
The Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin
Coins in Movies
Coins on Television
<< <i>Also I think the earlier coins were closer to pure gold and wore quickly, the later coins were 90% pure. >>
The gold content of some of the coins (e.g., the 1849? $20 coins) was actually rather on the low side (something like $17 in gold content in the 1849 $20 case), so these coins were not universally accepted in the territory. The source of the gold would also be of interest. While there were a number of mines in the territory (some of them founded by Spanish/Mexican mining expeditions into northern Utah), it is known that an important gold 'contribution' was given to the LDS church by a friendly Ute chief.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>The Mormon church and it's coinage are an interesting part of American history.
From the "historical perspective" I found it noteworthy that as part of the "Mormon Gold Display" they included Brigham Young's safe, a portion of which is seen in the photos of the display in the linked thread. Until reading your comment it had not occurred to me that most likely the very gold coins on display, as well as most if not all other minted Mormon gold coins, had probably been cached in that very safe prior to their distribution since Brigham Young was personally involved with the minting of the Mormon Coins at the "Mint's" location just a few houses away from the Beehive House there in which he resided and which has been preserved and is open for viewing even today. Not so much luck for the "Mint" house which was analogous to the Philadelphia house in which the early American half dismes were minted under George Washington's personal involvement.
Mormon gold coin exhibit plus Brigham Young's Safe
LINK
Can't wait for the 2nd Edition.
I have heard the mormon territorial coins were underweight, not sure if it is true or not. I don't have one to weigh. As far as supply, it is commonly accepted that much came from the Mormon Battallion and the gold fields of California, also possible is the infamous Lost Rhodes Mines (what you refer to with the Native Chief likely, do a web search, lots of fun!) and the extremely short-lived Furguson Canyon Gold Mine, exact location unknown. Furguson canyon was shut down by Brigham Young because he feared it would incite a gold rush if anyone caught wind of the alleged gold deposits found there. I've been there, the geology seems to support the possible existance of gold deposits, as well as silver etc. Hasn't been mined since that I know of.
These are the four denominations of twenty, ten, five and two-and-a-half dollars. Although there is much irregularity both in weight and fineness, the denominations are tolerably in proportion to each other. A parcel made up of all sizes, and counting $562.50, yielded at the mint $479.20; say $8.52 to the ten-dollar piece. The fineness was 886.
<< <i>This entry from Dubois and Eckfeldt (1851), who were assaying "California" gold, in a specific reference to Mormon gold, could make one cry......
These are the four denominations of twenty, ten, five and two-and-a-half dollars. Although there is much irregularity both in weight and fineness, the denominations are tolerably in proportion to each other. A parcel made up of all sizes, and counting $562.50, yielded at the mint $479.20; say $8.52 to the ten-dollar piece. The fineness was 886. >>
I'm not surprised you feel that way
My question is this, did they just have impure gold or were they trying to make an alloy? Surly the minting standards were sub par, even at the time but 12% off seems extreme.
<< <i>Don Kagin -- He wrote the book. And it is a great read, for history and coins.
LINK
Can't wait for the 2nd Edition. >>
Well Kagin did write "a" book, but it hardly pales to the work by Rust with regard to the history of Mormon money to include Mormon gold with regard to the subject at hand Here is a link to Rust's:
Rust's Mormon Money Book
and, as we know, one time-honored method to keep coins from being exported is to deliberately make them underweight - that is, they're worth more as coins than they are as bullion.
Check out the Southern Gold Society
<< <i>I seem to recall that one theory (for the underweight nature of the coins) is that the Mormons wanted the coins to stay in circulation in Utah (rather than be exported and melted)
and, as we know, one time-honored method to keep coins from being exported is to deliberately make them underweight - that is, they're worth more as coins than they are as bullion. >>
Huh...that makes sense, never heard it before, thanks for the info.
<< <i>I seem to recall that one theory (for the underweight nature of the coins) is that the Mormons wanted the coins to stay in circulation in Utah (rather than be exported and melted)
and, as we know, one time-honored method to keep coins from being exported is to deliberately make them underweight - that is, they're worth more as coins than they are as bullion. >>
Huh...that makes sense, never heard it before, thanks for the info.
<< <i>Given the frontier nature of the operations, I think they did very well. Would love to see what Eckfeldt and Dubois would say if presented a bag of clad coins for assay.
Walking the talk!
A stunning example!
Direct link.
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm21/wchormicle/Strickly Coins/20x30poster_zps72596c10.jpg
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.