Who collects a set with very few graded and do you pay what it takes when cards come up?

RedHeart54

I asked these questions on a recent post so I'll just devote a new post to this topic. Does anyone collect a set that has so few graded that you pay what it takes when cards DO arise in your preferred grade? There's a few things to consider-

1) The set was a regular, nationally produced issue (i.e Topps, OPC, etc) but there aren't enough collectors to warrant anyone with large quantities of commons to submit them. Plus, the set might be very condition sensitive, alas, it's more "risky" to submit cards because the prices they bring won't even pay for the grading fees if they come back anything less than a 9 or 10.

2) You're a player collector (mikeschmidt, boggsy) and the cards you need are scarce regional issues, test issues, stickers, etc.

3) The set is a well known but extremely scarce issue (i.e. 1954 Wilsons) with few raw examples, let alone graded ones.

So what do most of you do? Submit your own with the hope they'll be highly graded? Do you wait (i.e. hope) until more have been graded? Do you pay through the nose because you know that even though the card and set itself isn't scarce, graded examples are? And then when you miss out on one that you need, do you regret not bidding more aggressively? I'd like to hear your opinions.

gtbeaker

Speaking as primarily a player set collector (Bench, Morgan and Perez), I tend to pay what it takes to get rare/hardly ever seen for auction cards. I have lately been trying to pick up nice raw examples of some cards that have VERY low pops (but should otherwise be easy to get high grades). I don't think anyone who is seriously trying to complete a set (especially a master player set) which has cards with extremely low pops can do so without submitting at least a few cards of his/her own. I know I'm still worlds away from completing all 3 of my sets and I know that PSA hasn't even graded several of the cards that will eventually be included in these "master" sets.

waitilltheytrytosell

For the rare stuff, who says "paying what it takes" isn't closer to what the cards are really worth. Just because some idiotic price guides lists prices for everything doesn't mean you can go out and find it all. If you are waiting to pick something up in line of what a guide gives you permission to pay, you won't likely ever get the good rare stuff. As for the easy stuff that isn't worthwhile for sellers to submit, you really need to submit the stuff yourself. Raw will be easy to find. Buy the stuff already graded if it's the same price or cheaper than you can do it for yourself. If it's a slightly more difficult item, then know what a good deal is for one when you see one.

mrc32

I am working on the T-205 set and it would fit your criteria. This is a very very expensive set.

In most cases there are only 20 or so cards TOTAL that have been graded of the commons. This set could easily bankrupt me if I tried to buy the top of the line cards (top of the line would be a PSA 6 or 7). So my collecting philosphy has been to be selective on what I buy. I have been buying raw and then grading some, but that can be risky as a lot of the raw cards have been trimmed, pulled from scrap albums with glue on the reverse etc.

My set (or collection) is mostly PSA 4 (1 PSA 6, 1 PSA 5 and a couple of PSA 3s) have been picking up nice examples when I can, but won't blow a paycheck on any. I did buy one PSA 6 card with a POP of 5 and none higher, for a chunk of change but that was isolated.

I don't want to dedicate huge amounts of money to my sets, as there are other things I like to do with life, but I will pick up cards when I can for the $30-50 range.

To answer your question- you need to ask yourself what is your collecting philosophy?

Do you more than anything want the best set money could buy, no matter how much of your income you need to spend to get it or would you want a less than perfect collection (in my case a mostly PSA 4) that makes you happy.

I choose the later of the two.

dstudeba

As a newbie on the Wilson Franks registry I have plenty of enthusiasm to persue the cards. I have bugged, pleaded, and proded veterans to let go of their cards (mainly as a favor to them since the bottom will drop out of the market when everyone starts selling their cards for money to buy Lebron James cards) Anyway, I get whatever cards I can since it is harder to find them than to buy them. I register the ones that are previously graded and won't grade the others until I am forced to sell them. As for paying for them, I really don't buy cards from any other set so all my card money gets thrown at a Wilson when it comes up. Unfortunately I have some stiff competition so I often come away with nothing after having been stretched beyond my limit. The only remorse I feel is when I find a website or auction where a Wilson has already been sold before I got there. DOH! The auctions I lose are usually a relief because I was bidding over my head.

A less long-winded answer is - there are so few examples out there that whether it is graded or not won't come into the picture for me until I complete the set.

---------------------------------

Sell me your Wilson Franks and use the money to buy Lebron James cards!!

mrc32

Maybe this card is what you were talking about. Quality did pretty nice 50% over SMR for a high grade 52 bowman Enos Slaughter....some people will stop at nothing to fill a hole or upgrade

link

interchanges

I also did the Wilson set. It took me over 15 years for a 20 card set. That's barely over 1 card a year. With that set, you HAVE to pay out the nose at some point, and other times you have to let it go.
It's a fine line. During that time I came across the Richards card in mid grade once. I was lucky to pick it up or it would still be a hole in my set. I think sometimes you just say "screw it, I'm going all out on this one!
T205's are a great test of perseverance mrc32! But worth it. I saw Wendall's collection and I was awestruck that is the best set, ever!
(spam=I have a nice T205 psa 7 common on ebay now)
These sets take everything Red Heart mentioned; buying them raw and submitting, waiting..... paying thru the nose, and regretting. But the long term steadfastness pays off, you learn alot about the set. And there's no way you don't learn some things the hard way.
Then you talk to other folks like Murcerfan etc.. and they tell you insider info on other sets they know well from their experience, it's pretty cool. (I feel a group hug coming).
BTW- I think those crazy player collectors are the one's who pay the crazy prices. Don't get in their way!

Fabfrank

Although this thread seems to be directed towards vintage, this is a common problem for modern sets. With the SP Authentic football sets people grade the RC's but rarely grade the commons or for that matter the stars. I occasionally pick up a card on Ebay, but the majority of my the cards in my sets are from my submissions. In this case Redhearts #1 scenarion rings true. Add to the fact that with the chipping, foil enhancements and black borders on some years, condition becoms an issue also. For sets like these, submitting raw is the way to go.

helionaut

I've been working on a 1993 SP baseball set, if you call having about 9 cards work. I currently have the #1 set (yay for me!), but it's not like a monumental achievement. I've paid up to $10 for 1/1 9s, but won't go any higher because eventually I'll send in a bunch when I've got extra money and enough nice cards (these are a little tougher than one might think). A PSA 9 Carl Everett just closed for $23 on ebay last night. He's in the foil subset and that makes them even tougher, but I couldn't believe $23 for that card. It's not even a rookie, just a 3rd year. But it's the first I've seen offered on ebay and he's doing well on the field right now. Only about 20% of the cards in the set have even one example graded, but no, I don't pay what it takes.

TurbosHockey

I am an avid hockey collector and this is a huge problem for this sport. Due to the lack of respect that Hockey cards get in the industry it is very difficult to find good vintage graded cards. I in the process of trying to complete the 1971-72 OPC set. Sure all the star cards can be found but the Population numbers on the commons is basically ZERO and I am jumong at any that I can find and have been paying a fair price for graded as well as raw cards that I know will grade well.

RedHeart54

For my personal collecting habits, I was asking this in the context of modern issues, particularly 1980s issues. Someone on another post mentioned collecting a 1987 Topps tiffany set in PSA form. I'm in the same boat regarding a mid '80s hockey set: NO one is sending many in (except for the star cards). So let me ask something else (and maybe it's been discussed in the past): what is the future of collecting 1980s sets in all sports? There's a ton of commons out there but it would appear no serious market to make submitting them worthwhile. Of the regularly produced 1980s sets, the ones with at least one collector who has at least 50% of the set in a grade include 1980 Topps baseball (92.15%), 1981 Topps baseball (68.73%), 1984 Donruss (83.33%), 1987-88 Fleer basketball (50.76%), and 1988-89 Fleer (53.03%). A few sets have 30-35% completion. (And 1986 Fleer basketball doesn't count. There's no shortage of those in graded form.) In the end, is it just a matter of time before the '80s get popular enough that we start seeing a mass influx of graded commons? I seem to remember PSA had a grading special a while back for these.

Fabfrank

Redheart- I would say right now and 80's graded set would be a labor of love. I can't see any set that would bring back the grading fees alone if it were to be completed and sold. Now there are niche years where condition is a factor (85, 86 Topps Football, 81 Donruss/Fleer Baseball, 86 Topps Baseball), but until we see greater interest in building these sets, the cheapest way to build them is by submitting raw.

PlayBall

I'm the knucklehead who is building the 1989 Upper Deck set is graded form. The Griffey rookie was the first card that was a "had to have" card for me when I was teenager and could afford to buy my own cards. Anyway, I've broken down and bought some of the stars (not Griffey) in PSA 10, but not at outrageous prices. I'm about 25% complete, and have graded about 90%+ on my own. With this 800 card set, it's not about the money or the "worth" of the finished product, but the great enjoyment I get out of pouring through raw sets, and finding cards that are worthy. If you look at the POP report, just about every non-star card has been graded by me.

Fuzz

In any market it is supply and demand and in a thinly traded market, that can be a vicious fact.
If there are three cards graded and 2 people want them, the price is low, if there are 3 cards graded and 4 people want them, then either more will be submitted if available and if not the price will soar until a seller is found and the market balances.
In Wilson, Red Heart, etc. supply is limited, raw supply is limited and demand is strong. Prices are high and will stay high or go higher.
In the modern issues you reference, supply is high demand for graded is low. I agree with the group that basically says grading them at this time is out of passion or a financial mistake. I would paying grading fees for 9's and a bit more for 10's. No rush. The material is out there and it will come to you in time. Patience in that market will be a virtue rewarded.
Fuzz

Golfcollector

I recently bid on an auction where I guy hada bout 30 of the 50 cards form the 1927 churchman famous golfers small size set listed. There are very few of these graded, and I currently have the finest (and only) set graded.

I bid on 5 cards that were upgrades winning 2 A psa 5 and a psa 6. I lost out on the psa 7 and 2 psa 8's I bid on. They went for $31, and over 60 - 80 on the psa 8's, and I know there were more 8's that I did not bid on.

I was not willing to pay this as there are nice examples available, and I was suprised to see this much action on "common" golf cards from 1927, I guess more people collect these than I thought......

Fabfrank

I lost out on the psa 7 and 2 psa 8's I bid on. They went for $31, and over 60 - 80 on the psa 8's,

GolfCollector- This sounds to me that these cards were lost due to pricing. I know nothing about this set (and probably a lot of other people too), but if I saw PSA 8 graded 80+ year old cards going for under $100, I would bid on them too. Sometimes collectors associate the pricing of the cards they know (baseball) to the ones they don't (golf). With so many vintage baseball PSA 8's going for $100's- $1000's of dollars, these cards would look like a bargain.
I'm sure there are many collectors that would spend $60-80 dollars on spec. that these type of cards are undervalued.

Wabittwax

Playball, that's a great set, I've thought about working on that one sometime in the future. It's one of my favorites as a young teenager.

FabFrank, it's great to see somebody else working on modern football sets. I'm working on 1997 Totally Certified Gold Football all serial numbered to 30. It's on the Set Registry. It's my true passion for collecting. I'm about 1/3 complete after about a year and a half.

I'm also the guy working on the 1987 Topps Tiffany set. Honestly I doubt I'll ever complete it unless the market changes from it's current status. Nobody submits the commons and I don't blame them, I wouldn't either. There are only a couple cards that I would consider submitting myself. I have about 15 cards so far but almost all I bought below grading fee. Many people put them on Ebay at $9.99 but I wait for the one's that start at $1. I picked up a Barry Larking PSA 9 Rookie for $1 plus a little for shipping. All the cards I have so far are star cards and I've paid an average about $3-$4 per card. I paid $15 for the Wade Boggs PSA 10 in my set. There are many unopened sets still available so I'm patient at this point for the right price. I always take into account my resale value at some point (I'm a true entrepreneur at heart). I'm actually trying to wait until Bonds retires to pick up that card because it will tank like a rock when he does. He has absolutely zero fan base. I think I'm going to start a 1988, 1989, 1990, and 1991 Tiffany set in the same fashion as I am doing the 1987 set, waiting for the right price.

Golfcollector

fabfrank, I totally agree that these are undervalued, what is amazing is that normally these will sell off unnoticed. You can pick up a complete set of 50, includng 2 Bobby Jones cards and 2 Walter Hagen cards in high grade for about $500-$750, That's 10-15 a card including the higher priced stars. That is why I was so suprised to see the higher bids.

RobE

FabFrank hit the nail on the head by saying a labor of love for the 80T set.For many personal reasons to my collecting history that run of cards were the first collected as a youth.I used to work at the refreshment stand on my baseball teams off days.All summer long when I got my little $5 tip or whatever the tip jar had that got split at the end of the day I used to buy the packs with them.At the end of the summer they decided to give this 10 year old kid a box of snickers and almost a whole vending case along with a couple of half empty boxes of 80 Topps that were left over.More to this story like my Red Sox friend stealing all my Yankees cards because he hated them so much but I'll spare everyone here from that story.

The 80 set came about when the registry started to take off.I picked the set as a test run to check out the set building concept over misc collecting as the past was.Figuring it to be a "New Modern" set I felt that it would be relatively cheap to put it togethor and in a few cases it was inexpensive and surprisingly at times it's not.

I really want to and feel that I have to finish since it's so dam close to done.I've come very close to having to let it go for financial resons or with the interest in the persuit of other hobby related adventures but I'm attached to it and found it managable to keep though difficult.I realized about last August that it was probably going to be impossible to keep the set but somehow managed to hang on at least to finish it and see where that takes things for me.Right now I'm beyond the point of no return when it comes to completing the set.My guess is that when I hit 100% I'm going to take a long term direction to work on it in hi grade and persue other hobby related interests but not until it's at 100%.I feel I owe that to the registry the work,money and time put into it.

The biggest mistake probably was in putting the set togethor too fast, I'm 14 months into it now.If it was done at a much slower pace I'd probably have more than 62 10s but it wouldn't be 92.15% complete.However, for now - there are a lot of low pops and quite a few that have not made it into a 9 holder yet or graded period.Though I'm sure in time plenty will be submitted over time.

A few of the difficult cards in the set which come to mind are the Dale Berra - Gary Thomasson - Highlights Unser - Gossage.

Oh yeah - if anyone has the lone variation of card 387 with the yellow letters let me know.Last time I seen the pop report it has 3 separate listings for 387 but the only variation I know of is one has Name in Red and a rarer name in Yellow.I'll take it in any condition.Along with any of the remaining commons I'm still searching for.

boggs301012

REDHEART54

It is a labor of love. And due the baseball card explosion years ago I picked one player to collect. I have limited resources , so when I can afford it I will buy it. Some cards I admit I must have and will save to buy. Example as many know I bought 1984 DR DK Wade Boggs PSA 10 . I saw the card in the POP REPORT befor it hit ebay....I knew there was a good chance it would be listed so I save up for a few weeks and bought it way under what I thought it would go for. And then there are cards that get away a few days ago 1984 Fleer PSA 10 I was waiting to bid with 5 minutes left...my daughter fell down outside and I didnt get back inside in time. Anyway back on the subject there are cards I will pay extra for "gotta have" and I will pay what it takes if I have the money......PSA 10 1986 TOPPS I will pay what a PSA 10 Rookie go's for. If the issue is tought I will pay a premium .....but on Boggs the market isnt good....so I have to buy bulk raw and submitt...hmmmmm 60 % of what I have I submitted if not more. Which I enjoy doing any man can "be the high bidder" show me a man that finds it raw and submitts in high grade I have more respect for the person!!!! THAT IS A COLLECTOR!!!! THERE ARE TO MANY BUYERS OUT THERE


James