Toned Ike, Real or Artifical?

moosesr

This is a very colorful Ike. Any opinions on whether it is AT?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3023559457&category=11981&rd=1Link

Cam40

fixed link

Many here,including me,would say they dont put a whole lot of stock in PCI and their very loosly graded coins.

I dont know for sure,but it might be more believable if it were in PCGS plastic.
Even though I think its AT,it has some eye-appeal in the color department.Visually that is.

braddick

I like it! I even like this SBA more:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3024091043&category=11982

K6AZ

That Ike is so AT'ed it reeks. There is a good reason it is in a gold label PCI holder.

dorkkarl

ugly coin, but i like it. mkt-acceptable for me

K S

Singapore

Huge, screaming AT.

FC57Coins

Those two coins, the Ike and the SBA are what I call "puddled" coins. They look as though they had chemicals dry on top of them - hence the pasty appearance to them - pass!

CLASSICS

<< <i>This is a very colorful Ike. Any opinions on whether it is AT?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3023559457&category=11981&rd=1Link >>

............................about as real as a 3 dollar bill.........pci graded it......that figures....

Russ

I don't know about that Ike, but I do know PCI has no problem holdering blatantly AT'd junk:



That's one of Tonecoin2003's masterpieces graded MS64FBL gold label.

Russ, NCNE

ElectricEye

what's scary is how many PCGS holdered coins this doctor has for sale...

Russ

ElectricEye,

As far as I know, this particular seller is not a coin doctor. Matter of fact, from what I understand many of his listings are consignments.

Russ, NCNE

melikecoins

That's JUNK
Now This is a Toned IKE.


Glen

littlewicher

The SBA looks like heat-induced. Not sure about the Ike, though.

ohbaby

The fact the Ike is in a PCI says it all.

The rest of his coins I find exceedingly ugly and mostly ATed/

FrattLaw

I've bought several coins from greattoning and I can assure you they are not AT (edited to add -- the coins I bought, but I can't speak for these). However his pics might be a little tweaked, but the colors are there, just not quite as vibrant. He doesn't usually sell anything but PCGS, ANACS or NGC coins. I'm surprised by the PCI slabs, but as Russ pointed out, most are consignment.

Michael

supercoin

That SBA has a fresh-baked look to me.

The Ike is more interesting. Highly unusual, but who knows... I've got a clad proof that's somewhat reminscent of that as far as the wavy irridescent patterns of color (but not concentric). I surmise mine got that way from getting wet somewhere along the line and slowly drying. And it's in a PCGS holder, so it must be real.

FC57Coins

If you look at the Ike and SBA next to a bonafide toned dollar (I hope TBT doesn't mind my using his picture as an example) you can clearly see that there are major issues with the PCI toned dollars.

1. The PCI dollars look "pasty". If you look at the Morgan, you see there is a transluscence about the coin which is dramatized by the fact that it is prooflike. You have to remember that genuine toning "grows" on a coin and is a thin layer of oxidation that bends light as it reflects from the coin and comes back out to your eye. Think of it this way (on a naturally toned coin) light from a source travels through the oxidation layer, bounces off the coin, travels through the oxidation layer again, and then hits your eye. On an AT coin, some of the light may be reflected directly from whatever chemical was used to "color" the coin, and thus less of the light reaches the surface of the coin, thus less "transluscence" and luster coming through.

2. If you look closely at the Morgan, you'll see that the toning stops at the rim of the coin and the rim is a different color than the coin. The rim of the other two are toned.

3. The coloration on the morgan flows easily from one color to the other. The moderns have an abrupt movement of one color to the next and have that "puddled" liquid look (the ike particularly)

4. The devices on the morgan I would venture to say have all sorts of different colors blended through out the various nooks and crannies of the hair and wreath - while on the Ike and SBA it is more generally uniformly colored.

5. The letters and the dates of the IKE and SBA are colored mostly the same as the field surrounding the coin. While the Morgan has for the most part one color on the top of letters and numbers, and one color within.

6. Cupro nickel does not tone in the same way as 90% silver, and to me, who ever did the Ike and SBA tried to mimick the coloration found on silver coins. In my experience, cupro nickel coins usually have a very thin layer of almost rainbow toning, or sometimes a uniform color such as gold, reddish, green, or blue, but hardly ever this deep a color.

Anyway - this is by far not scientific, but you decide where you would want your money spent!

Frank




PS - I wanted to add that I've seen this seller's wares before, and other than high prices, I haven't seen anything that has implied to me that his coins weren't the real deal. But that's not to say that I've seen EVERYTHING that he sells.

braddick

Frank, great analysis, but what I find odd is after viewing coins like these shown, it is the IKE I don't have a problem with but might on the Morgan*.
Not so much the color but the possible "enhancement" of the color.

I've seen IKES like the one shown in PCGS holders (I know, because I still own them) and Morgans like the one shown in PCI holders.

Personally I believe the IKE and the MORGAN are BOTH real. One way to gage all of this is to ask yourself how you would debate the legit status of each coin if in the other holder- for example, the Morgan is PCI and the Ike is PCGS. That way you argue the merits, strictly, of the coin.

*I want to add that the Morgan is one of the prettiest I've even seen and is fully deserving of its PCGS GEM PL grade. Neat colors and certainly worthy.

Clankeye

<< <i> the colors are there, just not quite as vibrant. >>



I wish I had a dollar for everytime I have heard that exact phrase when our now weekly discussions of Greattoning's auctions come up.

And I am not being critical, it's just an observation, because I too have purchased a coin from him and seen coins sold by him that I have held in person. And this would be my take on the ones I have first hand knowledge of:

The colors are there, just not quite as vibrant.

As to whether any of the coins he sells in TPG holders are AT, I have absolutely no opinion about that.

Clankeye

jeffnpcb

I think the SBA was reslabbed from a PCGS! I mean, where else could you get such a fine print on the reverse!

coinguy1

I like the Ike dollar and think the color is natural/original/market acceptable - whatever you want to call it.

For the most part, the colors flow into each (rather than forming overly distinct bands/patterns) and they do so, in a fairly random manner. Also, most, if not all of the colors/shades are ones which are often seen on original/non AT coins.

FC57Coins

Let me make one thing clear - and that is I don't care what kind of slab any of these coins are in. I'm looking at this from the perspective of what I would think if I were looking at the coins in the raw. I will grant you that coins in person are going to look quite different. And like you Pat, I look at them from the perspective of being able to argue/justify how the toning got there. The Morgan to me is a no brainer bag toned coin. The color might be somewhat enhanced in the picture, but still, the way the color comes through from the coin and the way it blends within the coin are some of the stronger determining factors for me. Granted - I know nothing about how these other two coins were stored previously, but to me, on the picture, the color doesn't look right. I look at some of the peac*kck (geez I can't even type the name of a bird on here) coins that Pat has posted, and they have a different "feel" to them. The cupronickel coins that I've seen acquire their toning different in the field as opposed to the devices. Those are the ones I've seen. Now - I'm not saying with 100% certainty that the Ike and SBA are AT. What I am saying is that if I had a pocket full of money, I would put it on the Morgan and not the other two - personal preference.

Frank

FC57Coins

ttt

rd5425

I don't know about the Ike in particular but I have purchased many toned coins from this seller and he is definitely not a coin doctor, in fact he is the only seller that I know that sells toned coins consistently that are real. I have gotten pci coins from him before that have crossed at pcgs and all of his coins are usually in slabs save one or two.

FC57Coins

Like I said - I'm not concerned about the plastic they're in. I'm more concerned about the "look".

Frank

rainbowroosie

I truly enjoy the weekly "greattoning" thread. I consign numerous coins through him, mainly rainbow dimes and toned proofs. Therefore, if you don't like some of his coins -- I am to blame.

I seach specifically for the most wild toned raw coins I can find. Some, I admit, I am not sure whether the toning is "real" or not. But I buy them raw, submit them to experts, who then slab them. Sadly, some DO come back AT from the services.

Mr. D probably hasn't slabbed 20 coins himself in the last 5 years. He is selling what others (myself included) have submitted to "experts." Thus, focus your criticism/wrath on we submitters and more appropriately the "experts" who slab the coins. I fully admit that I DO NOT crack out cool toned coins once PCGS/NGC/ANACS, etc. grade them because they "might" be AT. I accept the verdict of the "experts" who I pay to grade the coins....Do you??????

Let me cite one specific example: "stupid" toned Jefferson nickels of which Mr. D has sold many (Yes, it was my idea to call them "stupid" toned). I bought these nickels already slabbed by ANACS from one of the most astute toned coin dealers I know. Mr. D only sold them for me for a commisssion. If someone must be "blamed," blame ANACS which slabbed them.....Mr. D clearly stated "I don't make'em, I just sell 'em." .... a 100% truthful comment.

Bustman

COUGH...AT....finish cough!

FC57Coins

<< <i>Mr. D probably hasn't slabbed 20 coins himself in the last 5 years. He is selling what others (myself included) have submitted to "experts." Thus, focus your criticism/wrath on we submitters and more appropriately the "experts" who slab the coins. I fully admit that I DO NOT crack out cool toned coins once PCGS/NGC/ANACS, etc. grade them because they "might" be AT. I accept the verdict of the "experts" who I pay to grade the coins....Do you?????? >>



Well put, and again the emphasis is that this is not a rant on the virtues of the seller. He is selling coins where the verdict has been passed on. My point is - and once again with emphasis - that if I were looking at these coins in the raw, personally I would pass on them for the reasons sited above. Stupid toned coins are wonderful, as long as they "look" right!

rainbowroosie

FC 57,
I fully agree with you. If a coin "looks wrong" to me, I pass on it in or out of a slab. Sometimes, you really can't tell and the coin looks "cool." I'll buy coins like that! I have studied toning for 15 years, listened to experts brief on AT/real toning, and looked at every toned coin I possibly could see...Still, every now and then, a coin comes around that i am really not sure if it is AT or not. If it is beautiful -- I just might buy it despite that nagging doubt. Falls into the "I like it!" category!!!