Toned coin madness
Steve27
Posts: 13,275 ✭✭✭
This is geting out of hand Link to Auction. (At least no one has bid on it.)
"It's far easier to fight for principles, than to live up to them." Adlai Stevenson
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Comments
By the way, that is a board member.
K S
I view this 1885 dollar in PCGS MS-62 @ $10,000.00 as a burlesque. It’s slap in the face to this foolishness that is now reaching the point of absurdity. The sad part is that there might be fool out there with more money than brains who will buy this ridiculously priced coin at the opening bid.
As for AT coins, I'd say that the coin doctors will use about anything given the upside. In other coins other than Morgans that can result in a lot of ruined pieces. So far it's been a waste of time to AT well circulated coins except to hide polishing, hairlining and whizzing. The really "pretty" AT coins must be AU or better, and that's where I think a lot of nice coins are going to be ruined.
Eagle7- Are you trying to claim there are significant amounts of AT coins in PCGS holders?
How many toned coins have you bought in you’re life? I mean bought and held….studied….reviewed…compared….and actually know the tone types and causes. Both of you seem to offer opinions on toned coins that are just out there like this sellers price. Opinions are just opinions but please relax on the toned coin bashing of late.
This seller has listed a coin that is nice and exotic in pattern and color at a ridicules price. Think about it…..it’s a marketing tool to bring people to the auction to either make an offer on the coin or to click on the link to go to his other auctions. ANACONDA does it all the time and it works.
Out of hand?…..the only thing out of hand in the toning market is the doctoring going on with low grade coins and chemicals. Nice “monsters” and high-grade toned coins are not bought by unintelligent collectors or dealers. It is a very refined market that the major dealers cultivate and educate. Our list of toned buyers is in the 1000’s and I have yet to meet or converse with an uninformed customer.
TBT
This shows how absurd a market has become when a professional dealer chimes in and tries to justify an absurd price as a great marketing ploy. Other dealers may do business that way, but I don’t. A professional salesperson should be committed to educating and aiding the customer, not fooling him and her by using cheap used car salesman tactics like this.
Pennies make dollars, and dollars make slabs!
....inflation must be kicking in again this dollar says spend by Dec. 31 2004!
Erik
I've handled MANY toned coins and the one in this auction just does not look right. Let's face it ...there ARE AT coins in PCGS holders as well as others. This is not a shot at the guys selling them, but if it were up to you, you'd have people convinced that an AT coin in a reputable holder would be impossible.
Just my opinion.
Cheers,
Bob
Would this be more personal opinions or based on fact?
Just asking b/c I still have not seen in any of your post where you became an expert on toning. In fact all I have seen are unsubstantiated statements with the intent to scare or worry other collectors…….no, I repeat no educational value. Its proves nothing but the fact you do not like it.....and that ok.
I respect your views and opinions but unless they are backed by something offer than personal feeling, I will stick with years of working in the toning market as my guide and will continue to post those professional observations instead of inflammatory rhetoric. I can’t stand car dealer ads on the TV or radio, but that does not mean they are not professional organizations. Marketing is a subjective and personal experience……each person has their own opinion.
The top 4 services (PCGS,NGC,ANACS,ICG) do make a few mistakes with artificial colors but they are few and far between. I back that statement with the FACT that we have bought, certified, seen, and reviewed over 10,000 toned coins in the past 12 months.
TBT
I'm really tired of you people who get mad because I won't line up and support your marketing programs. Do you think that I’m so influential that I’m going to ruin your business? If so, you are giving me a lot more credit that I deserve.
This toned 1885 dollar in the PCGS MS-62 holder is worth no more than $300 to $400 tops, and that might be with a tail wind. Since the obverse is not pictured, I'll wager that it's white and probably bag marked to death. Given that it's graded MS-62, the coin might even be a slider.
Providing the implication that this coin is worth 10 grand is unprofessional behavior IMO. That’s my opinion; I’ll stand by it; and you can flame me until hell freezes over; I’m not going to alter it.
If I had put up the original toned 1805 dime in PCGS MS-62 that I have in stock at $10,000, everyone here would have either ignored me or called me crook. I would not have been hailed as a marketing genius. Now somebody puts up a $400 coin at ten grand and it’s “innovative.” Well if that’s innovative, so is marketing ACG slabs at full book for the grade that is on the holder.
I already conceded the fact that the seller is a bit crazy with this price for a nice but average toned coin. What I am upset about is your constant post about toned coins or the tone coin market. I have asked several times now, where is your proof or experience with these coins or this market.
You claim to be a full time dealer yet you constantly post personal attacks and opinions about dealers of toned material or the coins they sell. Where is the education or professionalism in that?
Please address my concerns instead of de-focusing the thread with marketing mumbo jumbo complaints. If its you opinions then great, move one as I will but if its backed by proof then please share all.
TBT
I apologize if you feel this is a flame as that is not my intent and would be glad to take it to the PM’s.
What do you want from me? A ringing endorsement for everything you do? Cladking never got it with his modern coins, and neither will you. I didn't mention you by name until you went after me. Check the posts.
I feel the coin is worth $300 to $500 to the right person. Market value or eBay would be $200 to $300. It is a nice "draw" coin to bring people to the other auctions.
I have seen only 6 toned Morgan’s in the $10K+ range and 5 are owned by the same guy. Several are PCGS MS68 coins and several are raw. These are figures that others offered for the coins.....but were turned down. That was a wild viewing over a great meal of Cuban food.
TBT
I like the coin, it's right up my alley. I would only pay about $200 for it though because I'm sure it's not as colorful as the picture looks. It's an unusual pattern and you don't find nice 85s everyday.
and there are many nice toned coins
BUT*******************************8
the problem arises when you have coins that are common without toning and then even with the toning they are nice but not great or monsters just like this morgan
and then
uninformed uneducated promoters of toned coins make shall we say uneducated marketing ploys
they could care less about the hobby or educatind the public or even being responsible it is all about the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ always has been always will be and that is not good the best thing to do but such is life in the coin game
now this morgan dollar coin is an okie coin and extremely common even in a nice chioce to gem grade white
so yes as per the above it is toned coin madness
**********************************************************************************
but take a coin in this file attatchment
which is a superb gem mintstate coin that even in original white would be a rare coin and even a scrace coin in au! and with this toning is a really one of a kind uncommon coin
besides being in person sight seen and acknowledgaged by knowledgable toned coin experts a monster exceptionally eye appealling coin
then in THIS CASEthis is not toning madness..........................
to even consider this coin at 10,000 then this hafldime would be put at 10,000,000
and yes even as a marketing ploy this would be really opening yourself to be an ass as you are doing it to just better yourself for the money and ate not at all helping the cause of numismatics and i guess it is a free country but i would not do this
just like this common date morgan with nice but not monster toning
but such is the coin game with many many uneducated coin sellers out there with little to no intergrity let alone knowledge or responsibility and are only out there even on these boards to peddle their wares to the highest bidders and DO NOT EVEN ASK THEM NOT ALL THE TIME BUT FOR THE MOST PART TO MAKE A MARKET IN THE WARES THEY SELL!
sincerely michael
He has an awful lot of very pretty ones with "But...AT?" in the title, than the words "That DOESN'T mean it is artifically toned for sure" in the description.
Is that also marketing?
Russ, NCNE
With that said, how much did it cost him to post this on ebay??? just curious.
cheers, alan mendelson
www.AlanBestBuys.com
www.VegasBestBuys.com
This Morgan is so-so.
$3.30
Doug (uofa1285)"
""Today's thought: Those of you who live in glass houses should not cast stones!
Great discussion on coins. I am a first time "caller" in this forum. I also happen to be the seller of the coin in question. As the text of my auction clearly states, I do not think this coin will sell. I am simply sharing it with my hobby brethren. Do I believe it is worth $10,000? Absolutely yes! To me and maybe to others. Many of you have called this belief 'ridiculous', 'folly' and even 'fraudulent'. I disagree and will pose the argument as to why:
Hobby Axiom - Our hobby is primarily based on extrinsic value (i.e. personal appeal).
All of you critically commenting on this issue buy coins based on this extrinsic value. Yet a non-coin-collecting, bullion silver buyer would be mystified at why a round hunk of silver would sell for many multiples of the melt value.
Many of you are taking similarly mystified positions that there is a premium realized on naturally colorful coins (vs. all white coins). Further, you feel like you can justifiably criticize color collectors by saying a market-driven (extrinsic) premium over white coins is not 'right' or 'fair'?...Maybe you should add the label "hypocrite" to your email handles when discussing this issue.
Doug (uofa1285)"
Here's the fodder for the next set of flame wars, but I'll say it anyway. It's an absolute cop-out to say in so many words that these coins are "priceless" - that no price is too high for them. If that were true then every rip-off artist who has even taken a neewbie to clearers with overpriced coins would be in the clear. This has nothing to do with criticizing other collectors passions. It has to do with consumer protection.
Where is the limit? I'd say that if 99.99% of the dealers in the world would not pay you HALF of you just paid for a specialty coin, then you probably have been had. That standard is WAY more than generous. If you don't care about the money, then more power to you. But if you care about this business and hobby and don't want to see it dragged though the mud as it was in the 1970s and '80s, you will care about this issue.
<< <i>Michael's coin is magnificent :
This Morgan is so-so. >>
..................now here is a coin! very beautiful!
<< <i> have seen only 6 toned Morgan’s in the $10K+ range and 5 are owned by the same guy. Several are PCGS MS68 coins and several are raw. These are figures that others offered for the coins.....but where turned down >>
I believe I saw some of these you speak of in person myself. Yes these kind of toned coins are probably one of a kind. Matter of fact, some of the sets he has are also. Totally matching coins and toning patterns, vibrant colors.
The coin you guys are enjoying debating
Hey, nice to see the dealers having fun with this issue.
roadrunner
<< <i>The trouble with the "monster color market" is the same as the trouble with the "pop - 1" modern coin market. There are no regularly published price guides that will provide the less informed buyer with baseline prices. The only baseline prices that one can get are from auctions of similarly toned items and quotes at coin shows. >>
I've been holding back, mainly because I was working
Frank
Back in the early 1980s a couple who are friends of my wife paid $3,000 for a 1921 Peace Dollar. The coin was a raw AU-50, but the dealer in "investment quality rare coins" told them it was GEM BU, was worth every penny they were paying for it and would be worth a lot more in the future. The coin wasn't worth 3 grand back then, and it's sure as heck not worth even close to 3 grand now. This was a rip-off, a total fraud from the get-go.
Do you think that defending actions like that is a good idea? Do you think it's good to sit back and say, "They are adults. Who are WE to question whether this was a fair transaction?" How about stock fraud and land sale fraud? Is that OK too?
The coin that started this thread is unusual and worth more than the average 1885 in MS-62, but it's not worth thousands of dollars, at least not now. Similar items can still be found for far less, and telling an inexperienced person that it is very rare and worth thousands is a bare faced lie. That's all I'm saying here.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Camelot
Do you sell nicely toned coins? Meaning ones that bring premiums for vibrant color and such? Ones that set themselves apart from others? My gut feeling is you don't but I'm just curious.
I don't go out of my way to buy beautifuly toned coins, because it's became a specialty area in the market. If you can't buy the coins from "regular dealers" for modest premiums you have to pay the premiums that the specialty dealers charge. Those premiums can run to 10 times "bid" and beyond, and I just don't want to commit that kind of capital. I'm known as a "PQ" certified dealer at the shows who does want lists for better items, and that's my business plan. You learn pretty early this business that neither one dealer nor one collector, no matter how large he is, can do everything. I've handled and will work with most of the material that listed in the "Red Book" from copper and gold, and I'll leave it at that.
I don't have a problem with those who collect toned coins or most anything for that matter. I just think the people should be advised that is possible to overpay for anything, and I think the new collectors should be warned about that. When it comes to coins everything has its price, and the sky is not the limit.
Camelot