Why no dates on slabs?

IrishMike

This one of my pet peeves. Grading companies have plenty of room on the label for designations ad nauseum. Shouldn't we as collectors and or dealers insist that they start date stamping their slabs so we know when the coin was slabbed? I can think of a few reasons why they don't want us to know and several why we should insist they tell us. Please don't tell me this would slow down the process. Your thoughts?

airplanenut

A few thoughts:

1- I would slow the slabbing process down
2- Conder's done that already
3- It's another thing for them to add, and until one service has the guts to do it and get lots of popularity for it, no one else will start up.

Jeremy

ms71

I agree completely, it's a piece of information we should have access to; if not on the slab then online.

CLASSICS

<< <i>This one of my pet peeves. Grading companies have plenty of room on the label for designations ad nauseum. Shouldn't we as collectors and or dealers insist that they start date stamping their slabs so we know when the coin was slabbed? I can think of a few reasons why they don't want us to know and several why we should insist they tell us. Please don't tell me this would slow down the process. Your thoughts? >>

.........................its a great idea, and one i ask them to do when they first started.......then one would know when the coin in question was graded, as of today we have to guess........

nwcs

The biggest reason why they will not do it is because dealers and collectors will start making big deals about coins that were slabbed during certain date ranges and claim it was a "tight" or "loose" period. While this may or may not be true, it assaults on one key feature of slabs: the assumption of consistency. And you will see abuse on every side of it. For example, dealers who say a collector's slab isn't "the right date" and therefore worth less. Or collectors who will push for a discount because the dealer's coin was graded "during a known loose time." And all of this regardless of actual facts and observations.

Conder101

In order for the third party services to thrive they MUST maintain a reputation of consistancy and the belief among most collectors that a coin graded 65 in 1987 is the same as one graded in 1992 or 1998 or 2003 and that grading standards have not changed. Of course we know that they DO change slightly over time until eventually a reform of the grading takes place deliberately either tightening or lossening the standards.

Not if the slabs were dated these deliberate changes could be more easily tracked and it woud soon be known that coins graded during this period are tighter than that period and the value of a MS-65 will vary depending on the date of the slab. Can you imagine a bluesheet with 17 different values for each coin in each grade? One for each year that PCGS slabs were made? Or the confusion for newbies when they find that MS-64's for some time periods are higher then MS-65 for other periods?

For this reason the services are very reluctant to discuss specificly when the various varieties of slabs were produced. (PCGS refused to discuss it at all) And then there is the confusion because the slab varietes sometimes last for years while the standards may change more than once during that period. (This is why it is a bit silly to make blanket statements about how one type of slab is more or less tightly graded than another.)

Many of the early certificates did have these dates on them and it didn't take too long before the question of the date on the certificate started becomeing an important part of the deal. Even today with the slabs we see a little of this. When a slab style makes a change it starts becoming important to the deals as to whether or not the coins are in the new slabs or old ones. For these reasons I doubt very much if you will ever see dates of slabbing on the slabs.

barberlover

Their is still a rumor thats been around for years that the old green label slabbed coins were graded tighter then the first blue slabbed coins and some dealers even brag in there adds if a coin is in the older slab in there adds, evn if this wasever true, the crackout artists have probably baught and resubmitted the best of the best and left the rest for us. OOPS!, forgot my 92 S Barber half is in an old green label slab, the rumor must have been true lol. Les

Conder101

<< <i>Their is still a rumor thats been around for years that the old green label slabbed coins were graded tighter then the first blue slabbed coins >>



An oft repeated and silly blanket statement (No offense meant to you barberlover.). The blue labels are only a little over four years old! And there are five generations of "Green labeled slabs" in the 14 years that that statement covers! It used to be when people talked about the "old holders" being under graded they either said or meant the first generation holders. After the blue labels came out in Nov of 98 the quote changed from "first generation" to "green label" holders and it was used to hype slabs that were only a few months old.

barberlover

No offense taken, i couldn't agree more. Les

trozau

I had inquired about the population report of some world coins and among other things I provided the cert numbers and asked if they could tell me when the coins were slabbed. I got the pop report but on the question of when the coins were slabbed I was told that they do not give out that information. This implies to me that PCGS does have knowledge as to when the coins are slabbed, just that it is priveleged information.

Bikingnut

Why no dates on the certification verification page on the PCGS website?

Aethelred

I just don't see the need, not as long as you can see the coin.

And hey, let's face it, it would really slow down the slabbing process!

Aethelred

One issue I see with it is that people would start paying huge amounts for coins slabbed on historic days. If they had been doing this all along people would be paying $1000s for anything graded on 11 Sept. 2001 and so on.

dorkkarl

<< <i>Why no dates on slabs?. . . This is one of my pet peeves >>


doesn't bother me at all. the date's right there on the coin

K S

Steve27

That's funny dorkkarl, when you think about it, the date of the coin it provided twice but the date of slabbing isn't provided at all. YES, THE DATE OF SLABBING SHOULD BE ON THE SLAB!

IrishMike

karl it took you longer than I expected for you to come up with that reply. Here is my take on why it should be a requirement: it has been admited to some degree that grading standards are a moving target and I strongly believe that collectors and consumers of the end product deserve full disclosure. If someone wants to pay a higher price for a coin slabbed in 1998 then that is there decision, at least the information would be available. What the heck is wrong with being able to make an informed decision? If it were so easy to grade coins then why did coins get sent back and either upgraded or downgraded? Isn't if fair to the consumer to know that a coin was slabbed in a time period when standards were tighter or looser? If not then we should all stop complaining about that fact, that standards change?

How difficult would it be to add a date to the computer program? If you can spit out pictures of flags for state quarters, put a designation on the label or label it world trade center than a date ought to be a piece of cake.

dorkkarl

<< <i>...grading standards are a moving target and I strongly believe that collectors and consumers of the end product deserve full disclosure. If someone wants to pay a higher price for a coin slabbed in 1998 >>

hey irishmike, therein lies the crux of the problem. why would someone be so worried about when a coin was slabed in order to determine whether it's graded right or not??? it's a nonsensical approach to collecting coins! seems to me that if you want to determine whether the coin is graded right or not . . . . you should look at the coin

the whole argument about tighter & looser standards, it's all a bunch of hogwash. because grading is by definition subjective, why would you expect robotic results from an inherently subjective issue? why is the opinoin of the slabing company SO MUCH more important than your own opinion?

they are grading STANDARDS. the word "standard" in an of itself implies a malleable def'n that will change over time as perceptions & opinions change. i see no reason at all for stamping the date a coin was slabed on the label. it would NOT assist the consumer at all in determining whether the grade for a coin is appropriate or not. learning how to grade would.

K S

Conder101

IrishMike, Did you miss the part in my rant about how the services NEED to maintain an reputation for consistancy? That is much easier to do without dates on the slabs. They have enough problems with trying to combat the idea that different generations of holders are graded differently. With dates on the slabs, lists of "tight" and "loose" time periods would quickly be compiled and people would really be questioning the consistancy of the service. And face it, would you send your coins off to a service that now has a reputation for INCONSISTANCY? Most people wouldn't and that would hurt the services bottom line, possibly eventually putting the service under. Then what happens to all of the coins in the defunct services holders? Any guarantees are now worthless.

Specific dates of slabbing just really aren't a good idea. Especially from the services point of view.

(My god I'm defending the actions of the slabbing services, I must be sick.)

IrishMike

karl, I hope you don't mind if I borrow one your arguements, i.e collectors need to learn how to grade their own coins and not rely on grading services. What better way to learn how to grade then to look at already graded coins to gain some perspective on grading. I have a difficult time seeing the difference between a red and a redbrown IHC or a 66 vs a 67. It even becomes tougher with proof cents. By seeing some of them side by side in a dealers case I have learned the subltle differences. If indeed standards do change over time then I as a consumer could take that into consideration when appraising the coin.

Conder 101, I would take the opposite view, i.e. if the grading companies date stamped the slabs it would force them to be more consistent over time. They certainly shouldn't want their product, i.e. grades to look different over time. I would suggest the main reason they don't date stamp them is that is does allow them to be inconsistent.

Anyway just my thoughts and the way I look at it.

dorkkarl

hey irishmike, you are making an excellent argument w/ my point, & i agree completely. however, there ought to be a point at which you (not you personally, but in general) have learned enough about coins & know what you like, enough to be able to eval. a coin w/out worrying about an "exact grade". ie. it will NEVER be possible for grading to be so "fine tuned" as to be always consistent. a single coin may legitimately grade xf-40 in 1988, au-53 in 1994, vf-35 in 1998, yet be valued today by the owner as au-55+!

point is, way, way too much desperate worry in these arguments about how exact the grade is, loosening standards, tightening standards, this svc. is more conservative than that 1, but these other guys go by eac standards, blah blah blah!

when do you take a step back, and just decide whether you LIKE the coin or not? many many times, i have paid more for an xf-40 than a au-50 , because i LIKED the xf-40 more.

the issue you allege of "no dates on slabs" is not a grading issue at all. it's a worthless, useless crutch, & all it does is obscure what you really should be worried about, which is, do you LIKE the coin.

are you collecting coins? or dates on a slab?

i hope you are collecting coins. it's an enjoyable hobby that i bet a lot of people on this forum have never actually tried

my opinion, which is as worthless as anyones else's.

K S

IrishMike

karl I find slabs distasteful and have stated so many times and also stated many times that I own very few slabbed coins in comparison to my hoard. Whether one likes slabs or not is immaterial to the grade. I also collect many different series of coins and have found that for myself being able to look at a 65 or 66 in a PCGS, ANACS or NGC slab has helped my to understand how to grade a raw coin. I saw a fabulous set of 64 red IHC's at FUN. I spent some time talking to the owner and I agreed with him on which coins were no brainer 65's so I have learned some grading nuances, but I suspect unless you attend major shows and get a chance to see a number of high grade coins and have seriously collected for some years, you pick the number, that most of us are not all that proficient in grading but a few series if that even.

Looking at the grade on the slab is akin to having the answers for the test. Or at least pointing out which chapters to study.

Elcontador

Condor -

You said it more articulately than I could. Thanks.

Last February I was at a well-known dealer's table in Long Beach, looking for a Seated Half With Motto in 5. I looked at a type coin of this series, one in a 4 holder, the other slabbed as a 5 by the same service (one of the majors). It was obvious to me and the man behind the counter that
the 4 was the nicer of the two coins.

Now, imagine this scenario, except both coins being in 5 holders, with one coin slabbed in 2002
and the other one in 1990. Assuming grading was consistent in both 1990 and 2002, this would
be irrefutable evidence that the standards re grading these two coins were different when they
were graded.

Practically speaking, anyone who has been numismatics for awhile knows this, but this would be evidence. Unhappy people with evidence can get ugly.

supercoin

As I've said before, there is at least one compelling reaon to date the slabs, and it has nothing to do with trying to see if it's from a strict or loose period of grading.

Many problems do not show up until well after a coin is slabbed. If a slab is dated, it gives the collector another important piece of information.

- Is that faint print on a coin the beginnings of a greasy monster that will etch halfway into the coin, or just a remnant from a long-ago collector?

- Is that blazing white proof properly dipped and stable, or is it going to need another bath in a week?

- Is that wild and unusually toned dollar naturally toned from decades in grandpa's sock drawer, or is it fresh from the sulfur factor?

- Is that baby smooth cheek a freak of survival, or is that unusual color some auto putty that's going to dry out and fall off?

If buy a slab with a 1-year "born on" date and it still looks ok, you have eliminated many potential problems.

A side effect is that it makes more mature slabs a bit more desirable, which cuts down on the number of crackout attempts, benefitting everybody. Except the grading services. Which is another reason it ain't likely to happen.

IrishMike

supercoin, great points and I was hoping someone would bring them up, thanks.

redhott

I've never needed that information.

cladking

There is only one good reason not to date slabs, and that is to avoid the appearance of
shifting grading standards or multiple valuations caused by percieved changes. The ser-
vices have had seventeen years to home in on a standard. It's time they date the slabs
for our benefit and to help twart those few who might successfully get problem coins
graded.

Of course, in short order we'd find that the only way to maintain standards would be to
grade coins on multiple parameters. So be careful what you wish for, or at least be pre-
pared should it come true.

Elcontador

Tad,

I try to stay with original coins, which for most of what I collect, means that their luster is a bit subdued. So, a lot of what you mentioned, while important, didn't come to my immediate attention. Thanks for posting; your comments would make the lives of coin doctors more difficult.

Colorfulcoins

Here's another idea - instead of adding the date to the slab, why not just make the coin serial number database available(read-only) to collectors? Given you know the slab number, you can go online and "inquire" about it - confirm date, grade, submission date etc....of course there's limits to what they might make available in that database........but PCGS and NGC have this database today so the only issue is how to open it up for collectors.......or make it a part of the collectors clud like viewing the pop reports.

dorkkarl

<< <i>...for myself being able to look at a 65 or 66 in a PCGS, ANACS or NGC slab has helped my to understand how to grade a raw coin. >>

hey irishmike, i can't disagree at all w/ your assertion that looking at professionaly graded coins is a good place to start. your totally right about that 1.

what bothers me is that so many "collectors" never end up getting beyond that.

supercoin, you make an excellent point that is relevant only as long as slabs predominate. but i have cracked out every single coin i own, so such info would be redundant for me.

btw, i HAVE gotten burned by doctored coins in slabs, even in the last 3 years, but admittedly, the incidence is very low. worst case: 1857 half-cent ngc-63 that turned bright green within a couple weeks of being cracked out. luckily, simple curation solved the problem

K S