I didnt say I would know what will happen in ten years. I just said I would bet serious money that the PCGS MS66 Twenty Saint would be worth more than the quarter in question. And in fact that is exactly what I am doing. It most certainly is not baseless speculation, on the contrary buying high grade low pop moderns is certainly speculation while buying high grade gold coins prior to 1932 certainly is not!
In an insane society, a sane person will appear to be insane.
If you think that buying PCGS Saints, or ANY other certified or raw coins of ANY grade or denomination and holding them for investment or otherwise for ANY lenght of time is NOT speculation, I would respectfully tell you that you're living in dreamland.
Buying ANY type of collectable for investment is highly speculative and risky, and should only be done with discretionary funds that you can afford to lose. Just ask anyone who bought MS65 PCGS common date Morgans in 1989 for over $500.00 each and watched them drop about 90% ion value over the next decade. In ten years from now, MS66 Saints could be worth $300.00 or $15000.00 or ANYWHERE in between, it's a gamble, as with ANY other coins,,,,,,,,case closed.
If i ever develope an interest in moderns, i will search for raw coins myself, but i won't pay 4 or 5 figure sums for them. That is not a knock on modern coins it is a knock on slabbed high grade modern prices.
If i ever get into the financial position to activly collect again i will continue my pursuit of the best m.s. Barbers i can find. And Rkkay has sparked an interest in patterns [which i no absolutly nothing about]
Rkkay, can you recommend some good books for me to learn about u.s. patterns ? Les
The President claims he didn't lie about taxes for those earning less then $250,000 a year with public mandated health insurance yet his own justice department has said they will use the right of the government to tax when the states appeals go to court.
The smallest gamble in this hobby is buying low grade type coins like Indian cents and buffalo nickels in Good condition. While low grade circ type doesn't experience massive price rises, they have gone up consistently year after year. With no decline. Same for the classic rarities like 1804 dollars. That $4 in silver has gone up steadily in value for nearly 150 years in good times and in bad. That's about the safest bet you could make in this hobby.....that a classic rarity like the 1913 nickel or 1804 dollar will be worth more in 10 or 20 or even 100 years than it is today. Almost anything else is gross speculation. Instead of the Saint in PCGS 66, I'll take 5 of the 64's for my $2500......and meet me in 10 years for the clad quarter vs. $20 Saint debate.
You misunderstood Dragon. I did not say ms 63 thru ms 66 common date Saints. I said PCGS MS66 common date Saints. Big difference. Buying a common date Saint in a PCGS 66 holder is a much sounder investment than buying a clad quarter if you are talking the same price to begin with. I believe that is true and that is what I am doing with my money. You can do as you please.
In an insane society, a sane person will appear to be insane.
Why should someone be flamed for stating that they think this is an insane amount of money for a quarter? Ironic how if you mention the word modern, the one person always there to defend them never seems to actually be a buyer of the coins they defend.
I think this is an insane price, and therefore would not pay it. If the owner of this coin wants to, so be it. He also bought the Penn in MS68 and is selling his MS67 on the BST board for around 1/10 of the price of the 68. Why he is not using the registry BST board like the rest of the bozos I do not know.
Bottom line is a coin is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. May go up, may go down, but as long as someone is willing to pay the price, so be it. Many outside of this hobby think it is crazy to pay over face for any coin, let alone pay millions for some of them.
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
<< <i>You misunderstood Dragon. I did not say ms 63 thru ms 66 common date Saints. I said PCGS MS66 common date Saints. Big difference. Buying a common date Saint in a PCGS 66 holder is a much sounder investment than buying a clad quarter if you are talking the same price to begin with. I believe that is true and that is what I am doing with my money. You can do as you please. >>
I'm with Dragon that neither is an investment, and I'm with you that a clad quarter is more speculative. But let's speculate for a moment; Most active collectors are baby boomers or older. As these older collectors retire and spend their money and energy on other pursuits who is going to buy the many rare coins that will be coming on the market? There must be an influx of collec- tors to absorb these coins or their values will plummet. It will be new collectors, many of whom were drawn in by the states quarters who will be buying these classics in the future. While some will give up their collections and move on, many others will not. Some will desire to fill in the issues they never found in nice shape in circulation. Some will add the silvers and proofs. ...and some will just attempt to get the highest possible grade. There are several of these that I never found even in a decent choice condition. I know what I'm looking for. So there will be plenty of room for upgrading among a large number of collectors.
This begs the question. How can the classics be good investments if the moderns are not? A long history of solid value and high demand goes out the window if de- mand plummets. Even if a solid core of new collectors emerge from some unforesee- able place, how is one to know what tastes and interests they will have? Are we not speculating that future collectors will continue to treasure our coins anytime we pay more than metallic or face value. ...otherwise we're just collecting coins.
I'll say again that not enough time has elapsed to show the moderns as good "investments" or good "speculations." 5 to 10 years is not history. State quarters have only been around 4 years. Let's allow them the test of time before saying they've been proven. Certainly some of them have done fabulously well over the past 1-2 years.
Classic rarities have proven themselves for decades. This is like comparing apples and oranges. State quarters are still in the fad stage. Who knows if anyone will care about them in 10 years? The roll fad went away for over 30 years before interest was rekindled.
As long as our govt continues its policy of inflating the money supply as they've done for the past 25 years, inflation will be the driving force and 1804 silver dollars will continue to march upwards in price.
Like I said before, I will buy nearly any PCGS-MS67-MS69 state quarters sight-unseen, but, I am not building a collection of them personally. What I am personally collecting may possibly crash in value down the road if the next generation of collectors shuns it. While that would be dissapointing in one regard, it would also ensure that the collection got passed down to the heirs. If my great, great, great grandkids chuckle at the foolhardy coin purchasers of their great, great, great grandad one day, so be it (at least they will still be talking about me).
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Your sense of value is probably pretty close to mine. On the other hand there are those who have tons of money (I'd say more money than brains but again that would be based on my sense of value ) that feel the extra $2499.75 for a few less miniscule contact marks is worth paying the price.
And yes, it might take four years of searching through tens of thousands of coins to find that one coin with those few less miniscule contact marks but that only tells me that the person who takes the time to search or the person paying that price have a very, very different sense of what's important in life and what value you should place on a particular thing than I do.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
pmh1nic -- your post expresses why I feel purchasing modern pop-tops is risky, from a financial perspective. The slabbing industry has changed perception of "quality", and this change has increased over the past several years as pop top prices have taken off. There is the appearance of a speculative bubble building that could be burst as tastes change and perception of quality changes. I don't find it odd that quality costs, but I find it hard to relate to a definition of quality that differs so much from my own.
<< <i>pmh1nic -- your post expresses why I feel purchasing modern pop-tops is risky, from a financial perspective. The slabbing industry has changed perception of "quality", and this change has increased over the past several years as pop top prices have taken off. There is the appearance of a speculative bubble building that could be burst as tastes change and perception of quality changes. I don't find it odd that quality costs, but I find it hard to relate to a definition of quality that differs so much from my own. >>
I have to suspect that your definition doesn't differ so much along any of the grading parameters. Collectors generally agree that a stronger strike from a newer die which is properly aligned is better. We generally agree that full original luster is superior to faded, worn, or otherwise impaired luster. We generally agree that coins with a min- imum of gouges, scratches, dings, hairlines, and scrapes are superior.
Cladking -- yes, you are correct. But in my perception of quality, I have a sense of "diminishing returns". The absence of a microscopic mark or a very slighly better strike does not really enhance quality the way I perceive it. On the other hand, the market prices this change in perceived quality in a totally opposite manner from a diminishing returns concept. A tiny change in quality (and one, frankly, that I find virtually imperceptable) results in a massive change in price.
Moderns vary widely along all these grading parameters except luster or surfaces. While there is variation in luster also it is generally from one denomination to the next or one date to the next. There is also some variation within a single date on occasion, but even here the variation is "as minted" rather than the effects of col- lectors and many decades.
If you compare a gem moderns with a typical example then you'll see huge differences in quality. Due to lower quality standards until very recently not only is this range in quality greater than with classics but a higher percentage will lie at the bottom of this range. As you move up the grading scales the populations drop off precipitously. It is not so much that collectors are valuing tiny improvements in quality in large sums of of money as it is that there is still very low demand for most moderns even in very high grade. There simply is not enough demand for the undergrades for their price to reflect their true scarcity.
Classic rarities have proven themselves for decades. We're STILL finding GEM bags of Morgans and Saints you know.....
interesting responses from page 4 considering that we're talking about value holding up in the long term vs. increased pop's. can anyone say "1903-O Morgan, 1962 and GSA" in the same sentence without shaking their head at least a little bit?? HMMMMMM..........
can anyone say "why doesn't everyone collect JUST like i do" and not have their blood pressure rise a bit?? good then maybe we're making progress..........
"If you compare a gem moderns with a typical example then you'll see huge differences in quality"
Cladking -- you believe that the majority of collectors perceive a huge difference in quality between an MS67 and MS68 state quarter? Between PR68, PR69, and PR70 moderns?
Higashiyama: No. Certainly not. I misspoke. There is not a large difference in quality between most proof coins of the same date. Even spotting the difference took me years to see. It is also an acquired taste. The high grade proofs are nice but most collectors will not percieve a large range in quality. This would also largely be true for many of the commems and special issue coins.
I am referring primarily to the coins made for circulation including the states issues, and especially to those made before 2001.
"it is insanity, doesn't that cat realize he could use the 2500 towards a 66k ms66 53s fbl frankie??!!!!"
Oops- sorry Lucy, I missed that one.
Yes, that cat could have simply saved up another $63,500.00 and avoided his "stupid" $2500 purchase and could have owned a 1953 (s) Franklin for $66,000!! Hey, Lucy, I thought the first sale was actually $69,000 with commish? My memory may be slipping though.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>And about ALL State Quarters, aren't there MILLIONS MINTED?? >>
From 1999-2001 the LOWEST mintage State Quarter was the New Jersey D mint at 299,000,000. The highest for this same time period was the Virginia P mint at 943,000,000 - according to the 2003 Redbook. Laura, MILLIONS is an understatement!
Andy
We are finite beings, limited in all our powers, and, hence, our conclusions are not only relative, but they should ever be held subject to correction. Positive assurance is unattainable. The dogmatist is the only one who claims to possess absolute certainty.
Anybody ever notice that if you post a purely coin thread, or a thread providing helpful information or education you're lucky to get five responses? But, post a thread attacking somebody or criticizing another collector's choices and it'll go on for days accumulating post after post, most of which simply keep rehashing all the crap that was posted in the first 10.
That is true Russ but at least Cladking has not resorted to insults and has made some very valid points. Why the other person resorted to insults and a personal attack I do not understand. Oh Well!
In an insane society, a sane person will appear to be insane.
Android: This is another of the big differences between moderns and classics. Classic coins were hoarded in their day. Most were valued at their weight in metal so many people kept them as a store of value. This is the biggest reson that any of the classics even exist in VF or XF. They sat out of circulation for many years. This is a small part of the reason that old gem bags of Morgans and Saints turn up. There was no need to hurry and move out money when there was little danger of it's value decreasing. Moderns however did not experience this. The mint rotates their stocks of coins by regulation to conform with FIFO reporting requirements. There are no old stocks of clad coins sitting in St Louis or in Stockholme to back a note or because the owner is in no hurry to move it.
Yes. With the states issues there were millions minted and millions set aside in pristine condition. But large percentages of these were poor quality long before they left the mint. Many more will be damaged being inserted or stored in maps. Anyone collecting any moderns would be well advised to actually get out and look at lots of coins. There is no where to find detailed information on most of them except to look oneself. Moderns are a sea of exceptions, it is a wide field now and there are very few hard and fast rules which apply to all.
But there are no government or private stocks of coins dated before 1996 other than the few which have been set aside by collectors or exist in sets. Most of the post '96 coins probably no longer exist either.
Mr Insanity here. I purchased the NJ-D MS68 for $2500 and I think it was a steal. We have been thru the Modern vs Classics before so I wont even go there. At this time I am building a set of High Grade State Quarters but I also collect other coins and have had top 5 sets in 1965 to 1998 clad Quarters, 1959 to present Lincoln Memorials,Wheat Lincolns, Ike and SBA sets and the 50 Piece and 144 Piece Silver Commems , I also own some Morgans and Walkers.
I always hear the same old BS about the MILLIONS of State Quarters that were minted and that there are rolls and bags laying around just full of High Grade coins lets take 1999 you can go thru 100 rolls or a $1000 mint bag of each state (80,000 coins total) and mint mark and you would be lucky to make 1 or 2 MS67s and I guarantee you will not make an MS68. Mint sets are where you will find the MS67s and rare MS68s for 1999 in the 4 years since the start of the state quarters I have been thru approx 5000 1999 mint sets and have made 45-50 MS67s and not one MS68. I know most of the Individuals that make the vast majority of the high grade state quarters and they will tell you the same thing.
I have not seen the 99-P MS68 NJ so I cant say if it is a TRUE MS68 or not but I will say this of the other 40 state quarters I have every one is primo for the grade and I will bet anybody $500 that has responded to this thread that I can break out any one of my coins your choice and it will come back at the same grade it is right now. There are large differences between an MS66 to MS67 to MS68 to MS69 and it is very noticable mostly in the Strike and the types of imperfections. If you are unable to determine the grade yourself with a good degree of certainy then you are " BUYING THE PLASTIC NOT THE COIN" I prefer to " BUY THE COIN NOT THE PLASTIC"
All I can say to the FLAME throwers is get off you butt and grab a bunch of these State Quarters and send them in I will gladly pay you $2500 for any low POP (1-2 or 3) coin I need. Waiting to hear from you and hope you give me 1st choice on all the great low Pop State Quarters you wind up with.
FORMER # 1 NOW # 3 ON ALL TIME FINEST CLAD QUARTER COLLECTION
<< <i>All I can say to the FLAME throwers is get off you butt and grab a bunch of these State Quarters and send them in I will gladly pay you $2500 for any low POP (1-2 or 3) coin I need. Waiting to hear from you and hope you give me 1st choice on all the great low Pop State Quarters you wind up with. >>
If these are found, then they are not low pop! Are you willing to pay $2500 for every MS68 quarter even though you have one now? What is the purpose of looking unless you have a solid buy price on them. Are you giving us a solid buy price?
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
But, I will tell you this, you will have virtually -0- chance to outbid me for a (pre-2003) pop 1 MS state quarter at $2500 (and probably not for a pop 2 either most of the time)!! So, you better win them like you did here (closing an auction down early in an hour)!!
Congrats again! Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Just a thought for all those who are so quick to assert the alleged insanity of paying $2500 for an MS68 state quarter, basing that assertion on the large mintage figure. What do you think the market today would pay for a PCGS graded MS68 1964 Kennedy Half dollar business strike?
Between the P and D mints, there were over 400 million produced nearly 40 years ago, and not a single coin has ever achieved that grade at PCGS.
"Even spotting the difference took me years to see."
That statement reinforces my point that the differences that separate coins in the loftier grades are miniscule and MY sense of value doesn't permit me to assign 90% of a coins value to those differences.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Actually, I don't think there is a lot of flaming going on, most of the posts are reasonably polite, and pointing out surprising/amazing/amusing differences in tastes/culture/interests.
Also, for the most part, I don't think the key point of those who are astonished by high priced moderns is a belief that there are bags and bags of them sitting out there, but more that so much value is placed on what we perceive as a modest difference is eye appeal.
<< <i>"Even spotting the difference took me years to see."
That statement reinforces my point that the differences that separate coins in the loftier grades are miniscule and MY sense of value doesn't permit me to assign 90% of a coins value to those differences. >>
Just remember that this was in reference to a single type of modern which isn't relevant to this particular discussion, and that I had no one to help me identify these differences. Some have far more interest than others and will spot it more readily. Even in this narrow category there are some dates which have a much wider range of quality and the gems are much easier to spot. Those which are difficult, are difficult largely be- cause quality is consistently high.
Among the issues made for circulation there is nearly invariably a much wider range in quality than there is in classics. Typically most coins will lie at the bottom of the range and occasionally in the middle.
"Between the P and D mints, there were over 400 million produced nearly 40 years ago, and not a single coin has ever achieved that grade at PCGS."
Russ: Excellent point. And, if the coin was selling for under $5,000, you might see some bidding out of me as well.
Hey, for that matter, they minted roughly 1,000,000,000 1946(P) Lincoln cents. THAT IS 1 BILLION MINTAGE IN CASE YOU MISSED THAT. Slab a PCGS-MS68RD of that coin and sell it to me as the pop 1 and I will happily pay "five figures".
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
It's not a matter of which modern or for that matter which classic coin we're discussing. My sense of value prohibits ME from assigning 90% of a coins value to those things that constitute a one point difference in grade. That would also extend to the $2,499.75 difference in price for the differences between a nice MS-64 or 65 coin I pull from a fresh roll or bag and the MS-68 coin in question. But that's just me.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
<< <i>Between the P and D mints, there were over 400 million produced nearly 40 years ago, and not a single coin has ever achieved that grade at PCGS. >>
From my read of the Pop reports, PCGS has only graded 2,386 1964 P and D Kennedys in total, NGC has graded 669. It's simply my opinion that looking for a trend in the quality of remaining specimens of any coin based on a small sample of PCGS and NGC graded coins is about as speculative as it gets from an investment perspective. From a collecting perspective, I'm sure it would be great fun and personally rewarding searching through tens of thousands of coins looking for the "one" gem.
Andy
We are finite beings, limited in all our powers, and, hence, our conclusions are not only relative, but they should ever be held subject to correction. Positive assurance is unattainable. The dogmatist is the only one who claims to possess absolute certainty.
<< <i>Anybody ever notice that if you post a purely coin thread, or a thread providing helpful information or education you're lucky to get five responses? But, post a thread attacking somebody or criticizing another collector's choices and it'll go on for days accumulating post after post, most of which simply keep rehashing all the crap that was posted in the first 10.
Russ, NCNE >>
Now this is RICH coming from you!!! The head of the attack pack making this kind of statement. In your one year here, I'm not sure if even 1 day has gone by where you went without attacking someone here or on Ebay. PA...LEZ. Give me a break.
<< <i>"Even spotting the difference took me years to see."
That statement reinforces my point that the differences that separate coins in the loftier grades are miniscule and MY sense of value doesn't permit me to assign 90% of a coins value to those differences. >>
After all the posts here, I think that statement sums it up the best. Think about it. This coin is graded based on a 3rd partys opinion. The coin is ever so slightly better than the next grade down, but because of its assigned grade it moves into a "low pop" category in that same 3rd partys printed statistics. Because it makes a particular statistic, it is now "worth" an incredible amount more than the next grade down. The purchase price was for "owning" that statistic. If there were hundreds of NJ quarters in MS68 the price would crash drastically & the hunt would be on for the MS69. This proves that the price is NOT for the coin, but for the plastic it's in and the statistic it represents.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Comments
That thing is PURDY!!
Glenn
If you think that buying PCGS Saints, or ANY other certified or raw coins of ANY grade or denomination and holding them for investment or otherwise for ANY lenght of time is NOT speculation, I would respectfully tell you that you're living in dreamland.
Buying ANY type of collectable for investment is highly speculative and risky, and should only be done with discretionary funds that you can afford to lose. Just ask anyone who bought MS65 PCGS common date Morgans in 1989 for over $500.00 each and watched them drop about 90% ion value over the next decade. In ten years from now, MS66 Saints could be worth $300.00 or $15000.00 or ANYWHERE in between, it's a gamble, as with ANY other coins,,,,,,,,case closed.
dragon
If i ever get into the financial position to activly collect again i will continue my pursuit of the best m.s. Barbers i can find. And Rkkay has sparked an interest in patterns [which i no absolutly nothing about]
Rkkay, can you recommend some good books for me to learn about u.s. patterns ? Les
like Indian cents and buffalo nickels in Good condition. While low grade circ type doesn't experience massive price rises, they have gone up consistently year after year. With no decline. Same for the classic rarities like 1804 dollars. That $4 in silver has gone up steadily in value for nearly 150 years in good times and in bad. That's about the safest bet you could make in this hobby.....that a classic rarity like the 1913 nickel or 1804 dollar will be worth more in 10 or 20 or even 100 years than it is today. Almost anything else is gross speculation. Instead of the Saint in PCGS 66, I'll take 5 of the 64's for my $2500......and meet me in 10 years for the clad quarter vs. $20 Saint debate.
roadrunner
I think this is an insane price, and therefore would not pay it. If the owner of this coin wants to, so be it. He also bought the Penn in MS68 and is selling his MS67 on the BST board for around 1/10 of the price of the 68. Why he is not using the registry BST board like the rest of the bozos I do not know.
Bottom line is a coin is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. May go up, may go down, but as long as someone is willing to pay the price, so be it. Many outside of this hobby think it is crazy to pay over face for any coin, let alone pay millions for some of them.
Glenn
<< <i>You misunderstood Dragon. I did not say ms 63 thru ms 66 common date Saints. I said PCGS MS66 common date Saints. Big difference. Buying a common date Saint in a PCGS 66 holder is a much sounder investment than buying a clad quarter if you are talking the same price to begin with. I believe that is true and that is what I am doing with my money. You can do as you please. >>
I'm with Dragon that neither is an investment, and I'm with you that a clad
quarter is more speculative. But let's speculate for a moment; Most active
collectors are baby boomers or older. As these older collectors retire and
spend their money and energy on other pursuits who is going to buy the many
rare coins that will be coming on the market? There must be an influx of collec-
tors to absorb these coins or their values will plummet. It will be new collectors,
many of whom were drawn in by the states quarters who will be buying these
classics in the future. While some will give up their collections and move on,
many others will not. Some will desire to fill in the issues they never found in
nice shape in circulation. Some will add the silvers and proofs. ...and some will
just attempt to get the highest possible grade. There are several of these that
I never found even in a decent choice condition. I know what I'm looking for. So
there will be plenty of room for upgrading among a large number of collectors.
This begs the question. How can the classics be good investments if the moderns
are not? A long history of solid value and high demand goes out the window if de-
mand plummets. Even if a solid core of new collectors emerge from some unforesee-
able place, how is one to know what tastes and interests they will have? Are we not
speculating that future collectors will continue to treasure our coins anytime we pay
more than metallic or face value. ...otherwise we're just collecting coins.
Let's allow them the test of time before saying they've been proven.
Certainly some of them have done fabulously well over the past 1-2 years.
Classic rarities have proven themselves for decades. This is like comparing apples and oranges. State quarters are still in the fad stage. Who knows if anyone will care about them in 10 years? The roll fad went away for over 30 years before interest was rekindled.
As long as our govt continues its policy of inflating the money supply as they've done for the past 25 years, inflation will be the driving force and 1804 silver dollars will continue to march upwards in price.
Like I said before, I will buy nearly any PCGS-MS67-MS69 state quarters sight-unseen, but, I am not building a collection of them personally. What I am personally collecting may possibly crash in value down the road if the next generation of collectors shuns it. While that would be dissapointing in one regard, it would also ensure that the collection got passed down to the heirs. If my great, great, great grandkids chuckle at the foolhardy coin purchasers of their great, great, great grandad one day, so be it (at least they will still be talking about me).
Wondercoin
And about ALL State Quarters, aren't there MILLIONS MINTED?? We're STILL finding GEM bags of Morgans and Saints you know.....
P.S. I dare any one to sell a 1926S 5C PCGS MS65-I promise you, you won't get anywhere near that that coin went for in auction.
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Enjoy!
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Your sense of value is probably pretty close to mine. On the other hand there are those who have tons of money (I'd say more money than brains but again that would be based on my sense of value
And yes, it might take four years of searching through tens of thousands of coins to find that one coin with those few less miniscule contact marks but that only tells me that the person who takes the time to search or the person paying that price have a very, very different sense of what's important in life and what value you should place on a particular thing than I do.
<< <i>pmh1nic -- your post expresses why I feel purchasing modern pop-tops is risky, from a financial perspective. The slabbing industry has changed perception of "quality", and this change has increased over the past several years as pop top prices have taken off. There is the appearance of a speculative bubble building that could be burst as tastes change and perception of quality changes. I don't find it odd that quality costs, but I find it hard to relate to a definition of quality that differs so much from my own. >>
I have to suspect that your definition doesn't differ so much along
any of the grading parameters. Collectors generally agree that a
stronger strike from a newer die which is properly aligned is better.
We generally agree that full original luster is superior to faded, worn,
or otherwise impaired luster. We generally agree that coins with a min-
imum of gouges, scratches, dings, hairlines, and scrapes are superior.
While there is variation in luster also it is generally from one denomination to the
next or one date to the next. There is also some variation within a single date on
occasion, but even here the variation is "as minted" rather than the effects of col-
lectors and many decades.
If you compare a gem moderns with a typical example then you'll see huge differences
in quality. Due to lower quality standards until very recently not only is this range in
quality greater than with classics but a higher percentage will lie at the bottom of this
range. As you move up the grading scales the populations drop off precipitously. It is
not so much that collectors are valuing tiny improvements in quality in large sums of
of money as it is that there is still very low demand for most moderns even in very high
grade. There simply is not enough demand for the undergrades for their price to reflect
their true scarcity.
We're STILL finding GEM bags of Morgans and Saints you know.....
interesting responses from page 4 considering that we're talking about value holding up in the long term vs. increased pop's. can anyone say "1903-O Morgan, 1962 and GSA" in the same sentence without shaking their head at least a little bit?? HMMMMMM..........
can anyone say "why doesn't everyone collect JUST like i do" and not have their blood pressure rise a bit?? good then maybe we're making progress..........
al h.
in quality"
Cladking -- you believe that the majority of collectors perceive a huge difference in quality between an MS67 and MS68 state quarter? Between PR68, PR69, and PR70 moderns?
between most proof coins of the same date. Even spotting the difference took me years to
see. It is also an acquired taste. The high grade proofs are nice but most collectors
will not percieve a large range in quality. This would also largely be true for many of
the commems and special issue coins.
I am referring primarily to the coins made for circulation including the states issues, and
especially to those made before 2001.
<< <i>Have you noticed that the people defending these outrageous prices are the ones selling them? >>
I've never sold a high grade modern.
Oops- sorry Lucy, I missed that one.
Yes, that cat could have simply saved up another $63,500.00 and avoided his "stupid" $2500 purchase and could have owned a 1953 (s) Franklin for $66,000!! Hey, Lucy, I thought the first sale was actually $69,000 with commish? My memory may be slipping though.
Wondercoin
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>And about ALL State Quarters, aren't there MILLIONS MINTED?? >>
From 1999-2001 the LOWEST mintage State Quarter was the New Jersey D mint at 299,000,000. The highest for this same time period was the Virginia P mint at 943,000,000 - according to the 2003 Redbook. Laura, MILLIONS is an understatement!
Andy
First POTD 9/19/05!!
Russ, NCNE
Russ, NCNE
Classic coins were hoarded in their day. Most were valued at their weight in metal
so many people kept them as a store of value. This is the biggest reson that any
of the classics even exist in VF or XF. They sat out of circulation for many years.
This is a small part of the reason that old gem bags of Morgans and Saints turn up.
There was no need to hurry and move out money when there was little danger of
it's value decreasing. Moderns however did not experience this. The mint rotates
their stocks of coins by regulation to conform with FIFO reporting requirements. There
are no old stocks of clad coins sitting in St Louis or in Stockholme to back a note or
because the owner is in no hurry to move it.
Yes. With the states issues there were millions minted and millions set aside in pristine
condition. But large percentages of these were poor quality long before they left the
mint. Many more will be damaged being inserted or stored in maps. Anyone collecting
any moderns would be well advised to actually get out and look at lots of coins. There
is no where to find detailed information on most of them except to look oneself. Moderns
are a sea of exceptions, it is a wide field now and there are very few hard and fast rules
which apply to all.
But there are no government or private stocks of coins dated before 1996 other than the
few which have been set aside by collectors or exist in sets. Most of the post '96 coins
probably no longer exist either.
Mr Insanity here. I purchased the NJ-D MS68 for $2500 and I think it was a steal. We have been thru the Modern vs Classics before so I wont even go there. At this time I am building a set of High Grade State Quarters but I also collect other coins and have had top 5 sets in 1965 to 1998 clad Quarters, 1959 to present Lincoln Memorials,Wheat Lincolns, Ike and SBA sets and the 50 Piece and 144 Piece Silver Commems , I also own some Morgans and Walkers.
I always hear the same old BS about the MILLIONS of State Quarters that were minted and that there are rolls and bags laying around just full of High Grade coins lets take 1999 you can go thru 100 rolls or a $1000 mint bag of each state (80,000 coins total) and mint mark and you would be lucky to make 1 or 2 MS67s and I guarantee you will not make an MS68. Mint sets are where you will find the MS67s and rare MS68s for 1999 in the 4 years since the start of the state quarters I have been thru approx 5000 1999 mint sets and have made 45-50 MS67s and not one MS68. I know most of the Individuals that make the vast majority of the high grade state quarters and they will tell you the same thing.
I have not seen the 99-P MS68 NJ so I cant say if it is a TRUE MS68 or not but I will say this of the other 40 state quarters I have every one is primo for the grade and I will bet anybody $500 that has responded to this thread that I can break out any one of my coins your choice and it will come back at the same grade it is right now. There are large differences between an MS66 to MS67 to MS68 to MS69 and it is very noticable mostly in the Strike and the types of imperfections. If you are unable to determine the grade yourself with a good degree of certainy then you are " BUYING THE PLASTIC NOT THE COIN" I prefer to " BUY THE COIN NOT THE PLASTIC"
All I can say to the FLAME throwers is get off you butt and grab a bunch of these State Quarters and send them in I will gladly pay you $2500 for any low POP (1-2 or 3) coin I need. Waiting to hear from you and hope you give me 1st choice on all the great low Pop State Quarters you wind up with.
PCGS THE ONLY WAY TO GO
Ed
<< <i>All I can say to the FLAME throwers is get off you butt and grab a bunch of these State Quarters and send them in I will gladly pay you $2500 for any low POP (1-2 or 3) coin I need. Waiting to hear from you and hope you give me 1st choice on all the great low Pop State Quarters you wind up with. >>
If these are found, then they are not low pop! Are you willing to pay $2500 for every MS68 quarter even though you have one now? What is the purpose of looking unless you have a solid buy price on them. Are you giving us a solid buy price?
You have a solid buy price on any 1999 MS68 with a POP of 4 or less even if I have the coin.
PCGS THE ONLY WAY TO GO
Ed
But, I will tell you this, you will have virtually -0- chance to outbid me for a (pre-2003) pop 1 MS state quarter at $2500 (and probably not for a pop 2 either most of the time)!!
Congrats again! Wondercoin
<< <i>dbldie55
You have a solid buy price on any 1999 MS68 with a POP of 4 or less even if I have the coin.
Interesting, that leaves out both of the last ones you bought. Not much of an offer, I will stick with real coins.
Between the P and D mints, there were over 400 million produced nearly 40 years ago, and not a single coin has ever achieved that grade at PCGS.
Russ, NCNE
That statement reinforces my point that the differences that separate coins in the loftier grades are miniscule and MY sense of value doesn't permit me to assign 90% of a coins value to those differences.
Also, for the most part, I don't think the key point of those who are astonished by high priced moderns is a belief that there are bags and bags of them sitting out there, but more that so much value is placed on what we perceive as a modest difference is eye appeal.
<< <i>"Even spotting the difference took me years to see."
That statement reinforces my point that the differences that separate coins in the loftier grades are miniscule and MY sense of value doesn't permit me to assign 90% of a coins value to those differences. >>
Just remember that this was in reference to a single type of modern
which isn't relevant to this particular discussion, and that I had no one
to help me identify these differences. Some have far more interest than
others and will spot it more readily. Even in this narrow category there
are some dates which have a much wider range of quality and the gems
are much easier to spot. Those which are difficult, are difficult largely be-
cause quality is consistently high.
Among the issues made for circulation there is nearly invariably a much
wider range in quality than there is in classics. Typically most coins will
lie at the bottom of the range and occasionally in the middle.
Russ: Excellent point. And, if the coin was selling for under $5,000, you might see some bidding out of me as well.
Hey, for that matter, they minted roughly 1,000,000,000 1946(P) Lincoln cents. THAT IS 1 BILLION MINTAGE IN CASE YOU MISSED THAT. Slab a PCGS-MS68RD of that coin and sell it to me as the pop 1 and I will happily pay "five figures".
Wondercoin
It's not a matter of which modern or for that matter which classic coin we're discussing. My sense of value prohibits ME from assigning 90% of a coins value to those things that constitute a one point difference in grade. That would also extend to the $2,499.75 difference in price for the differences between a nice MS-64 or 65 coin I pull from a fresh roll or bag and the MS-68 coin in question. But that's just me.
<< <i>Between the P and D mints, there were over 400 million produced nearly 40 years ago, and not a single coin has ever achieved that grade at PCGS. >>
From my read of the Pop reports, PCGS has only graded 2,386 1964 P and D Kennedys in total, NGC has graded 669. It's simply my opinion that looking for a trend in the quality of remaining specimens of any coin based on a small sample of PCGS and NGC graded coins is about as speculative as it gets from an investment perspective. From a collecting perspective, I'm sure it would be great fun and personally rewarding searching through tens of thousands of coins looking for the "one" gem.
Andy
First POTD 9/19/05!!
Camelot
<< <i>Anybody ever notice that if you post a purely coin thread, or a thread providing helpful information or education you're lucky to get five responses? But, post a thread attacking somebody or criticizing another collector's choices and it'll go on for days accumulating post after post, most of which simply keep rehashing all the crap that was posted in the first 10.
Russ, NCNE >>
Now this is RICH coming from you!!! The head of the attack pack making this kind of statement. In your one year here, I'm not sure if even 1 day has gone by where you went without attacking someone here or on Ebay. PA...LEZ. Give me a break.
<< <i>"Even spotting the difference took me years to see."
That statement reinforces my point that the differences that separate coins in the loftier grades are miniscule and MY sense of value doesn't permit me to assign 90% of a coins value to those differences. >>
After all the posts here, I think that statement sums it up the best. Think about it. This coin is graded based on a 3rd partys opinion. The coin is ever so slightly better than the next grade down, but because of its assigned grade it moves into a "low pop" category in that same 3rd partys printed statistics. Because it makes a particular statistic, it is now "worth" an incredible amount more than the next grade down. The purchase price was for "owning" that statistic. If there were hundreds of NJ quarters in MS68 the price would crash drastically & the hunt would be on for the MS69. This proves that the price is NOT for the coin, but for the plastic it's in and the statistic it represents.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.