Heritage's addendum to a AT Bust Quarter slabbed by PCGS

ER

Recently, TomB posted a thread across the street, and TDN brought it over here, about a 1831 blast white Bust Quarter PCGS MS64 that was sold at Heritage Signature Sale on August 11, 2001 as Lot#5872, now resurfacing as Lot#6114 at Heritage CSNS Sale coming up next week, with honey-gold peripheral toning, in a different PCGS slab. It IS the same coin, no doubt, somebody cracked it out, naturally (?) cooked (?) it, and resubmitted it, got the same grade, just in a a different PCGS slab.
Heritage's original description did not mention about the possibilty of AT. Someone (TomB ?) must have alerted them that this is the same originally white coin they sold less than 2 years ago, because they recently added a "NOTE: The toning on this coin may or may not be original, but either way, in our opinion this coin is lovely, and solid for the grade."

First, sorry I don't know how to link the pictures. Somebody help.
Second, is it possible for a coin to naturally tone like this one in less than 2 years?
Third, did PCGS slab a AT coin? Does it really matter? Would YOU buy this toned coin?

rwhite

Original Auction
current auction

Typetone

Isn't it possible that someone bought it 2 years ago, cracked it out, put it in a Dansco album, perhaps in the sun, and got it to tone that way?

Greg

smprfi

To me that is the same coin and the toning is natural.Start with the toned coin and look at the toning pattern.Now go to the white coin and you will see the same pattern only it looks dull silver with a slight hint of gold.Someone probably cracked it out and put it in an album and it continued to tone.

Max

Apparently someone stands to make a bundle on this coin and that someone must be influential enough that they can 1] get it into a PCGS holder, 2] get Heritage to look the other way until it's pointed out to them and 3] get Heritage to keep it in the auction!!

I will pass on it.

Russ

<< <i>and that someone must be influential enough >>



Probably the same people that faked the moon landing.

Russ, NCNE

keithdagen

To me that is the same coin and the toning is natural.

smprfi,

Saw this coin in person yesterday. It definitely appears AT after review of the piece and has a definite unnatural appearance to it.

eagle7

It's amazing how quick wayte raymond holders are scooped up by certain people in ebay auctions and the high prices paid for them. Kinda makes you wonder about album toned coins, dont it!

Elcontador

Thank you, Keith. To me, the toning appears unnatural because the dull rim toning contrasts with the bright white centers. I have Unc. 19th Century type coins with rim toning, but the luster in the toned areas of these coins is consistent with the luster of the white portions .

To be fair, some AT'd coins do get slabbed, and you cannot point a finger at PCGS for this without doing the same thing across the street. Last fall, I saw what IMO was an obvious AT job, also on a Capped Bust Quarter in 4 which was graded by NGC at a Bowers auction.

RooseyFan

The two coins are different if you ask me. PCGS has the first coin labeled as a "Small Letters" and the second as "Large Letters"


Butch

keithdagen

Butch,

The identifying marks are the same on the coins. PCGS misattributed the coin the first pass through. Heritage's original auction description points that out. The coin was cracked and given a new certificate number.

Elcontador,

The coin has as much luster in the centers as any silver PR-69DC that comes from the Mint today. Highly probably that there was the use of a luster enhancing chemical at some point, possibly before the coin was cracked. This coin needed to sit a lot longer before the rim toning would look natural, but there was some funky neon purple and neon blue on the denticles and rim that didn't mesh with the golden brown rim toning. Coin was obviously placed in a chemical treated album.

And you are absolutely right. Both services slab the coins, it's not a problem common to PCGS. Looked at a 1796 quarter in AU-58 that NGC had graded that had been polished so brightly that it would qualify for DMPL.

ER

Greg (Typetone),
"someone......cracked it out, put it in a Dansco album, perhaps under the sun"
You 're kidding , right?
Anyone here know of anybody who buys a $6000 coin and gives it a suntan naked?

Butch (RooseyFan)
You got to pay attention to the coin itself, and not the slab. Keith is right.

SeattleSlammer

I love the look of that coin BOTH ways (just comparing scans, that is). Still, I'm surprised how many bidders are willing to spend relatively big money on a questionably toned coin.....once again, BEHOLD THE POWER OF PCGS PLASTIC!!!!!

Elcontador

Capped Bust Quarters graded higher than MS 63 are scarce, and
nicer ones are even tougher to find. A nice 5 is a 10K plus coin,
assuming you can find one.

Most of the 4s out there that I've seen have that blast white
dipped look (that Keith mentioned), but with too many contact
marks IMO for the grade. Someone took one of these coins
and tried to be 'creative.'

Sometimes people just get tired looking for a particular coin &
will purchase one because it's the best of an unsatisfactory lot.

I eventually bought a 4 for grey sheet plus 10%. It's an original
coin with no marks, excepting a long pinscratch in a non-grade
sensitive area.

CalGold

Heritage photos are notoriously poor at depticting color. If you down load the original auction photo and tweak it just a bit (increase gamma and contrast on MS Photo Editor) you will see that it had toning back then too. The area between the bottom rim and bust and around the upper rim to just above the cap and into the stars shows gold toning. Not to the degree of the new photos, but there was toning there.

That is not to say that some one didn't help it along before it was reslabbed.

CG

Max

Thought it was be interesting to go back and revisit the aftermath of the AT on this Bust 25c.

Well, when coin doctors can get away with something like this why not take the risk?!! Can it be anymore obvious????

From a $6k coin to an ATed $8k coin in less than 24 months. Not a bad return given current options on CDs, stocks, bonds, etc.

The silence of the major dealers [especially the outspoken ones] on this is amusing, not amazing, because whomever is involved has the power to squelch any dissent. Imagine a handful of players controlling like puppets, a wide range of middle and bottom feeders, I mean dealers.

ER

Would be interesting to find out if the person who bought it this time knows its natural, or is it artificial, history.
The saga continues. Maybe 2 years from now, it will be a monster rainbow in a NGC slab.