NCS versus Do-it-Yourself

ER

Like to get your opinions regarding Numismatic Conservation Services (NCS).
Why are people giving them legitimacy? I'm sure there tons of people out there who can conserve coins just as well as NCS, but if they send their coins in for slabbing, they'll get body bagged. But if NCS does it, then it's OK. It's just another way of getting your hard earned money. Just MHO.

By the way, this is nothing against NGC.

BigD5

I don't think "just because NCS does it, it's ok". Sure, there are plenty of people dipping coins on their own. A lot of those coins are then submitted and slabbed by various grading services. Not all are bodybagged. Same goes for NCS. Not all coins sent to them for "curation" are slabbed afterwards. Toning can hide problems, and if it's removed, the problems become more apparent.
I'll dip a coin up to a certain value, and with a certain look that I know, and feel comfortable with. Other coins, that I'm unsure of, or the value exceeds my comfort level, I'll send them to NCS for evaluation. I've only sent in a dozen or so coins to NCS, and not all have had "work" done to them.
For certain coins, it is a beneficial service.

nwcs

NCS has access to chemicals most ordinary folk don't. And they know how to use them properly, which most ordinary folk don't. And they are far better at detecting the problem than most folk.

Many people have conserved coins that got into holders. NCS is simply better at it. As you would expect with a company dedicated to doing that.

fcloud

Who whould you rather have do heart transplant? A specialist or a general practitioner?

More coins are ruined at home by people trying to conserve (clean) them than any professional service. The professional service will return a coin before ruining it. But the non-professional may not know when to stop.

Barry

It's all a crock - good cleaning vs. bad cleaning. I'm sure most of us have seen coins BBed for cleaning which are not hairlined or damaged any other way.
Here's an interesting experiment:
Take an NCS-cleaned coin, currently in an NGC slab. Crack it out and resubmit it directly to NGC (or PCGS). Think it will be slabbed or BBed?

BigD5

Barry, the only problem with your experiment is that the services can be so inconsistent, a coin that hasn't had ANYTHING done to it, may or may not get slabbed each time it's submitted.
Happens all the time to coins submitted straight from mint sets. They get bagged. Go figure.

I get your point though. It's all about market acceptability, and what each of our own tolerances are concerning that.

mnmcoin

I have "curated" tens of thousands of coins that now reside in PCGS and NGC holders...it's all about proper "curation."

morris <><

BillJones

Body Bags are just one more revenue enhancement tool for the grading services. I can't believe how hard the services are on some early copper and how easy they are some early silver and gold. I've sent in condition census copper coins that have come back in body bags. At the time I sent them in, the dealer who was walking the material though for me speculated that they would come back in Mint State holders. The result was body bags. The PCGS and NGC graders don't know early copper at all and their ignorance breathtaking.

Conversely I’ve sent in a few silver pieces that I thought might run into trouble, which came back 10 points higher than I thought they should have. Body bags should be reserved for counterfeits, altered coins, damaged coins and pieces with obvious curating problems that leave them with unnatural looking surfaces. When they used for copper coins with great eye appeal and smooth, hard, non-porous surfaces, they are just a rip-off.

MadMonk

I've often wondered this as well Billjones. I have been entirely flabbergasted at some of the BB's I've seen. One example is a coin I had go from a NGC bodybag to a 66FBL at PCGS.! When I used to set up at shows, there would sometimes be a crowd of very experienced dealers scratching thier heads on some of this stuff.

BillJones

This beautiful 1858 Flyer got a totally unwarranted, totally capricious BB from PCGS. I guess the toning was so perfect that they figured it HAD to be fake. Today it's in an NGC MS-64 holder WHERE IT BELONGED to be all along.

mrdq

<< <i> I have "curated" tens of thousands of coins that now reside in PCGS and NGC holders...it's all about proper "curation." >>



Care to share your methods with us?

Dog97

I can fix most simple easy problems with dip, ms70 and/oe acetone but I think nwcs hits the nail on the head when he says NCS has access to chemicals most ordinary folk don't. And they know how to use them properly, which most ordinary folk don't. I've seen before and after results of NCS on coins that I would not dare to touch!
I think everybody using NCS simply as a dipping service is a misuse but NCS removing damaging contaminates from a coin is a great service. True the coin might not certify as problem free after PVC, corrosion and other junk is removed but it least it will be conserved and not crumble away to metal dust like it would otherwise do after 10 or 20 more years.

Conder101

I still think that sometimes when the graders are falling behind they just start randomly BB'ing pieces in order to catch back up.

BillJones

I sure looks that way to me, Condor. I waited for 6 weeks on a 15 day service to get three unwarranted body bags.

As a customer I have no recourse. The grading services have my money, but they don't have my respect. And believe me that lack of respect will translate into less money for them in the future.

As for NCS I always understood that it was almost impossible to remove copper stains from gold without causing further damage. I had a piece with a very unattractive copper stain on it that I sent to them. They turned a lemon into lemonaid although it wasn't cheap. At least that's one positive experience.

mnmcoin

<< <i>

<< <i> I have "curated" tens of thousands of coins that now reside in PCGS and NGC holders...it's all about proper "curation." >>



Care to share your methods with us? >>



There are 3 keys things...1 never rub or scrub the coin, 2 properly rinse your coins...MS coins I just use plain water from the tap, proof coins, I use a filter on my tap, then in the right sink I dump a gallon of distilled water, then once I rinse the coin thoroughly under the filtered water, I slosh it around in the distilled water. 3. Dry the coins as quickly as possible. I use those super soft viva papertowels on a clean soft cloth towel...again patting dry the coin and never rubbing or massaging it dry.

Other than that it is just trial and error and quickness. It take about 2-3 minutes per coin on proof, a little quicker on ms coins.

A problem some people don't understand is that toning or the skin of an original coin often hides the problems that cause a coin to get bodybagged, and then once you remove the skin and uncover the blemish, you have a bb'able coin. It just takes practice and experience seeing through skin and tone.

morris <><

Merc

Sorry, I don't like that method of cleaning coins. The patting and drying will leave hairlines on Proofs. I use 95% ethanol to rinse coins. It dries off coins in seconds. There is no need to touch the coins with paper for drying. I also use plastic gloves when handling the coins.

Your statement about problems under the toning is true. The coin must be studied carefully before cleaning.

Dog97

>>>>>Your statement about problems under the toning is true. The coin must be studied carefully before cleaning. >>>>>>
Very true!
On the other hand I've found slightly toned coins with scuff and marks that didn't actually break the coin's skin and if the tone breaks are dipped off then you end up with a pure white coin with no "marks" (or less of them) that WILL get a higher grade when you send it back in.

BillJones

Yep, toning can cover a lot of sins. That's why toned coins are not always what they appear to be.