If someone put up a BIN price of $1,000 on ebay and I buy it, that is a legal contract. The coin is sold. While it is not my style, people hunt for those things on ebay all the time. I recently sold a $300 coin on this Board for $125. An error?, sure. But, I wouldn't even consider asking to DK the deal. What happened to your word is your bond? A recently saw a coin I wanted to buy at a local dealer's shop. I asked for a price quote, and was quoted $200 too low on a $500 coin. I indicated to the dealer, who is also a friend that I thought his price was a little low and that I could pay probably at least a $100 more. I was told the quoted price is the quoted price and that that's the right way to do business. I agree.
Finally, the instant case is not just one of a typographical error. This was not just a email typo. The customer called and spoke to a professional numismatist, not a clerk. The price was quoted, and payment taken. The deal should have been done. If you have to eat a $1,000 loss, then you eat it. I've eaten worse.
If I was in the same situation I would have sold the coin at my cost. I have sold coins raw that I graded a certain level and they came back graded a little lower and I refunded the person the difference in value. That same person is a regular customer now. A company the size of DLRC should have stepped up and sold the coin at either the quoted price or at cost. We all make mistakes and sometimes paying for your mistakes keeps from making them happen again.
I can say I admire DLRC for the high level of sophistication they have in their website and the way they do business. I respect a company that takes technology and makes it work for them. Sometimes it comes down to the human factor and this is where the problem came from and because of the human factor and the error then they should break even on the coin and make a happy customer.
I once bought a really sharp 1880-CC PCGS MS66 from George Huang at Legend at a major show. I was paying in cash and accidently gave him an extra $200.00 (they were all new crisp bills). George counted the cash and told me that I gave him too much. I probably would not have missed the money until I got home that night and then never really knew where it went, so it's nice to know that there are indeed honest dealers, it's a two way street.
marcalan is welcome to buy the coin for us at our cost of $1650. Just call or email me personally (john@davidlawrence.com) and it's a done deal. Coin is pulled and on hold until I hear one way or the other.
Again, thanks for those who show understanding and support. I don't mind the criticism... in fact I view it as a way to improve.
I think I agree with Numised's sentiment if not his wording. An offer was made by the dealer, payment was presented, but the dealer reneged. It might be legal but it certainly stinks. Imagine if you had to renogiate every item you bought at a store....
Not a lot to add, but since FinallyHere mentioned that dealers read the threads to learn, I'd like to get my two cents in.
I don't feel the dealer is obligated to sell at a misquoted price. Quote all the legal BS you want to, but to me that's an unfair expectation, and I want to be fair. I would be unhappy, for sure, but that's expected.
What happens after the dealer catches the error and elects to void the sale is purely reflective of the level of customer service. An apologetic phone call with an offer for an adjustment on a future order would have been ideal. Unless I had done serious business with the dealer, calling me to apologize and asking if I would buy it at the "correct" price would make me suspicious that I'm getting jacked around. If I'm interested in doing that, let me bring it up. When I express my unhappiness, and you tell me that I'm trying to take advantage of you, that's going to upset me. I don't expect you to kiss my butt, but I do expect common courtesy.
John does come across like he is interested in maintaining good customer relations, and agreed this one wasn't handled well. No problem with that. Everyone makes mistakes. And employees don't always handle things the same way that the boss would.
On a tangent, this isn't the first thread that I've read where people said they offered them coins and didn't get a sniff. That's only irritating because their ads always tout their interest in buying.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
John from David Lawrence's offer to sell the coin at his cost is very reasonable. I think it absolves DH of any possible perception of "trying to screw" marcalan.
Now let's talk coins!
(What was the coin, anyway?--I do not think it was mentioned in this thread!)
I always appreciate honesty, and think Legend is great.
However, whatever happened to honor. The buyer was not cheating anyone. He called and asked a profesional dealer for a quote, and he got it. If he thought the coin might be worth $1,300, and got it for $950, that is in line. Dealers often sell coins under the last auction price, especially if the auction was at a much higher than expected price. DLRC or anyone else should honor their price as long it was given by a responsible party in person or on the phone. In this case it was. This is not a cleark making a typo, it was a professional with coin in hand.
How do we know that 1 hour after selling the piece, he didn't get a call from another customer offering to pay much more, and so DKed it. How do we know the buyer didn't immediately sell it to another customer and so have to eat a loss. No, once a real deal is done, it should be done. The dealer should not be calling and trying to DK this.
It seems to me that the entire problem here is that this "Win" character should probably not have a job where he interacts with the public. It looks like a problem that could have been solved quickly by what appears to be 2 reasonable people was instead magnified by bad customer-relations.
Man what a hard crowd. Why do people get angry when they don't get over on a seller. It appears that it was an honest mistake. I really don't think that DLRC has a history of doing this on a regular basis. I truly wonder if what is driving the anger is greed. Anything other than the coin at the REALISTIC price is a bonus. Take him at his word, and see if his idea of making it up to you is as honorable as I would imagine.
Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
While I had a personal negative customer experience with your company, I never questioned the mechanics of doing a deal with your company. However, after reading your posts, I can't help but wonder. What you seem to be saying is that if I call you or Win or any other professional at DLRC and get a firm quote and pay, that I do not know if I really bought the coin. I might get told several days later that you have the coin, but that your quote was an error and that the deal was not really done. Mind you, we are not talking about a clerical typo, but a real quote from a real professional with coin in hand. Nor, are we talking about a $6,000 coin quoted at $600, which I would and should be credible enough to question. We are talking about a coin within 50% of fair value (which is well within the range of what can be seen in dealer quotes). Please clarify whether my understanding is correct. If it is, I don't know whether I would be comfortable continuing to buy coins from your company. I only raise this issue here because of what you seemed to be saying in your public posts.
As I recall, this is the first time in over 40,000 coins that this issue has ever been raised, so if you uncomfortable with those odds, I don't know how to respond. On the other hand, if we make the same mistake again tomorrow, I will make the same ruling. I/We will not be bullied into losing $800 on an honest mistake. If you are not interested in being fair with us, then please don't order from us. Sorry.
To all of you this is a simple matter of "speaking your mind" but I take this quite seriously and the treatment I am getting from you is (in my humble opinion) more embarrassing than the mistake we made. Your comments are inordinately harsh. I have apologized but I will no longer be crucified. Have a nice day.
-John
p.s. Win is a great guy, a good friend and a GREAT employee. If you've been ever been on the rare receiving end of a shortness with him, myself or Jack, then accept our apologies. The three of us do more work and process/sell more coins than anyone you know. We're busy....and human!
Here is my small take on it. I myself had a small problem with them this week. I purchased 3 coins, that were online 2 weeks agao, received 2 of them in the mail, with a paid invoice for all 3. I thought for a minute, and wondered how to handle this. I kept the package to prove to them by the postage they paid, that 2 coins is all that was sent, and the cardboard showed 2 coins in it. So, I made the phone call to Ruth, she at first (in her voice) seemed like that was not possible, but I explained, the packaging, and the fact that one of the coins I paid for just wasnt in there. After several minutes, she came back online and told me that someone would call me about it tomorrow, after they investigated the missing coin. Well, they didnt call all day, so I called back, after finding a sutible replacement online to reorder in place of the missing coin. Sure enough, they found out that the coin I bought had in fact already been sold, but failed to notify me of the problem. The Only thing that rubbed me the wrong way, was the fact that whom ever packaged the coins up along with the INCOMPLETE invoice, sent it anyway, making the burdon of proof on ME. That is not good business. But being a business owner myself, (NOT COIN SHOP), I understand mistakes happen, so I will chalk this up to there mistake, and overlook it. Now , if this happens again, I feel I can complain to the owners. So for now, just sit back and continue to buy thier products. I have made several nice buys from them. By the way, the replacement coin was even a better buy, and was an awsome coin to boot!
I want to bring this thing to closure. Some of you go off on tangents that can't be applied to this situation. i.e. gave too much money to someone and they gave it back. Not the same.
1) Once again, I personally like the company and the coins I have purchased from DLRC. Service has always been A+ before this incident. Most of you have mentioned that the service has been good. 2) While I did not like the way this transaction went bad.....and the way it was handled (not handled)....My intention is not to "Bad Mouth" DLRC...or imply that they should be avoided. Rather, I asked for opinions from Dealers and Collectors to get an idea of whether or not I was over-reacting, and whether I was justified in feeling like I did. 3) This was not a case where I ordered it online (for the incorrect price). I called and talked to a professional numismatist who buys and sells millions of dollars worth of coins. He looked at the coin, described the coin, etc. and sold the coin to me. 4) I could not have and did not know the coin was incorrectly priced until this morning.
Again......I never wanted this to become a "flame" thread. One badly handled incident (from my experience).....does not warrant "bashing" DLRC. I have not......and did not do that. I tried to state the facts.....so you all would understand how I felt when I got off the phone (which wasn't good).
John, ignore all the flames and answer one simple question, why didn't Win give marcalan84 a call and explain the situation? Sending an email to a nonworking email address isn't the answer.
1) Win asked someone else to email me. They sent it to an email address I used 5 years ago. I don't know how their internal systems are set up. They emailed the offer to buy at my current (last 3 to 4 years email) that I provided when I set up my Want List. The Want List emails are most likely all automated.
I'll only comment on one small part of this transaction...marcalan84 is an educated buyer of the series of the coin in question and was not wrong in assuming that the original quoted price was in line with expectations. It took me all of 30 seconds to find the coin in question based on the info given. IMO David Lawrence may have overpaid for this coin...recent pricing history on this date/mm in question is probably biased due to some very PQ plus coins selling for strong "shot" money.
Marcalan84's assumption that the price was correct is not unreasonable. DLRC's buy price for the coin is in line with current full retail value for a solid to somewhat PQ example of this coin. DLRC's ask price for this coin MAY BE high...not having seen the coin in question I cannot make a definitive statement to that effect.
No one here was trying to scam anyone.
RELLA
Do not fall into the error of the artisan who boasts of twenty years experience in his craft while in fact he has had only one year of experience... twenty times.
Marc, During all this mess, did Win ever offer you an apology for their error? If he did, then I 'd understand and let it go at that as an honest mistake. But if he didn 't , and acted in any way like "screw you", then I would be VERY pissed, and would never do business with them again. All you business people should understand that if you piss off the customer, you lose their businesses. I would really like to know, because I had thought about buying coins from them. Thanks.
Why do board members feel the need to expose their business problems here on the board? Work it out in private. It almost seems like black mail to me.
Well, this is the only thing I WAS going to comment on, but marcalan84 expressed his sentiments just above. Yes, this is a coin forum and all aspects of US Coins is apropo - it is the responders who give it a flavor of responding to the thread, or injecting their perception(s).
There is NOTHING wrong about asking for opinions, particularly, since he only asked if he was overreacting.
What DOES bother me is how people get "tattled" on in this forum. Not that marcalan84 said anything derogatory about DLRC; as a matter of fact, what he expressed was completely validated. I wonder will he receive any consideration from the "tattler(s)" for being completely truthful.
1) Once again. THEY ARE AN EXCELLENT COMPANY (IMO). This is in spite of one bad transaction. None of us are perfect. Win DID apologize...but I think he was in a hurry (busy as John said..and obviously never called me to tell me the coin didn't get sent). He probably was feeling defensive (as was I) about the "transaction gone bad". 2) What RELLA said is all true. Nobody (DLRC or Myself) was out to "screw anybody". What I said earlier...was about how I felt (my feelings)...but not so much reality (unless they had done something wrong intentionally). They made a mistake...and probably handled it wrong (from my viewpoint...but correctly from their viewpoint). 3) I had just looked for opinions of other collectors and dealers to see if how I felt (lousy after talking with WIN).....was justified or if I was just over-reacting. I also wanted to know how similar situations were handled by other dealers. 4) Look folks......when two people are taking sides on an issue (Win and myself)......things can turn into a "pissin' contest".....even without trying...if it involves a few testosterone laden guys (Win and I). Doesn't mean he was out to get me. I just didn't like the fact.....that their mistake cost me a coin at an excellent price.....and I had to find out about it in the wrong way. I am sure they learned from it.......and the next time someone buys a coin priced incorrectly.....they will do a better job contacting the buyer.
Why do board members feel the need to expose their business problems here on the board? Work it out in private. It almost seems like black mail to me.
We've established that there are lots of bad sellers out there and 99.999% of the time it's the buyer that gets screwed. The seller has every advantage in most cases and this forum sometimes is the only way a buyer can be heard. there's nothing wrong with posting problem sellers - i think most people appreciate it. i place stock in board member's comments; that's why i'm here in the first place!
that said - i don't think anyone will read into this thread that DLRC is a bad seller. i don't think anyone was trying to "screw" the other. it was just a case of poor communication. no big deal.
marcalan84, this comment is not directed to you but some of the others. I occasionally am asked by my company to address other employees in other regions on how to be successful in the business we are in. The very first thing I tell them is not to waste time with red clients, deal only with the green if you can. Red clients are those who no matter how reasonable you are, upfront honest etc. will try to get every last cent out of you and never appreciate what you did for them. I can spot them within one minute of conversation. Sadly it took me many years to learn this rule. Sometimes the customer isn't always right, sometimes the right thing to do is tell them to find a bank that can do it the way they want it done. Most of the high producers in any line of business already know this.
First DLRC said they'd lose $1000 then said wouldn't be bullied into losing $800 ???? then said would sell at cost $1650. Does anybody believe a dealer when they tell you their cost?
As a newbie I didnt realize how ugly these posts got.
I would say this to marcalan: Make a data point of the event and go about your business of finding nice coins that you like. The nonsell very well might be a blessing in disguise. There are always more coins out there and most likely a nicer one...
To the dealers out there (of which I would eventually like to become one) I would ask this: If this situation were to happen again, how would you handle it AND (everybody swallow here, gut check time) how many times has an unknowlegeable collector/layperson walked up to your table/shop with a really nice collection that was inherited/passed down to them? You see the helpless rabbit in front of you, they say they want to sell these, you rip the collection even though the poor heir got what he asked for. (10000 dollars was alot to him!!) Would you offer a full refund because of a foolish blunder on his part if he walked in the next day after he realized his mistake?
Difficult question but definately part of what I call the dealer double standard and it applies to the situation at hand. I understand both sides of the story here because I vest pocket on the side but it is an issue that will plague the coin world forever. The only way of stopping it either way is complete integrity. What is the percentage that we feel comfortable making on a coin? When does a rip become fraud? 100% profit? 200%?
I guess all of our mirrors tell the tale at the end of the day, and only some of us, be it collectors or dealers, can look at ourselves and see someone we like looking back.
Luuuuuuuuuuuuuucy-Have you got a problem here? Fortunately, yours can be taken care of very easily. If you aren't sure.....I can tell you with a private email.
Marcalan you are half at fault because you should have realized the price was probably too low especially since DLRC is NOT known as a deep discount low warehouse pricing seller. Your reaction to the email should have been "say what". Win is equally at fault for the same reason because as an experienced salesman he should have realized the sale price was too low. However as we found out $hit does happen. The proposed offer to sell the coin to you at cost was a fair solution IMHO.
Marcalan84, You got screwed without even getting kissed!
However, i don't think it was intentional on their part, sloppy [I can't say "unprofessional" as I don't view coin dealers as professionals, an overused term anyway] for sure and careless.
Let's face it, you dont need to be an Einstein to be a coin dealer, hence many are less than totally bright and many are crude.
DLRC is one of the good guys and they made a mistake. Simple. Choose how to deal with it, buy soimething else or avoid them.
Hasn't it been hashed enough that DLRC made an unintentional mistake? After like the 30th post I think marcalans message got redirected. I believe the two of them have worked things out. LIFE WILL GO ON.
I would like to add one comment. A guy like John at DL will NOT intentionally screw anyone-and if he did try to do something he would NOT get away with it. WHY? There IS a place to go-the PNG (so long as the dealer is a member-John is on the board). Now I know this is probably going to start more flaming, but I have an important message concerning the PNG: One thing they do NOT tolerate is members screwing the public. The PNG IS fantastic for IS resolution of real disputes. They DO take it VERY seriously, and all the rulings I have EVER heard of have been done "by the book" and without favoritism. So if John (DLRC) had really ripped someone off, there IS a place where ANYBODY can go-the PNG. I hope everyone remembers that.
Laura Sperber
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
IMHO ~ the dealer should have caught the error before the email went out (ie: proofread), should have noticed it when it was ordered and therefore should make ammends in some form. Offering the coin at cost should be fair...dealer loses nothing except profit and the buyer gets a deal. If the buyer does not want the coin at that price, then some sort of coupon.
<<91 posts (plus tihs one) because some guy is miffed that a dealer wouldn't sell him a coin at a loss>>------------Not right, it is because the coin was not sold for an AGREED UPON PRICE---------------BigE
One thing they do NOT tolerate is members screwing the public
Ya right. I must be a real duck. I bought an 1875-S 20c sold by a major auction firm in a major auction as a branch mint proof (Au-50) I called the auction house and asked their estimate of value and was told something well over $1K (long time ago don't remember exactly) It turned out to be a couple hundred dollar regular issue. The auction company told me too bad and the PNG was brought in. They made the auction firm pay me back the buyers premium. Lost over $1K on that and still my biggest loss ever.
If your intentions were only to get opinions on whether or not you over reacted, then you could have mentioned the problem without saying who the dealer was. You seem to feel that DLRC is a great company and have had no problems in the past, so maybe if you had hesitated long enough to think about what a thread like this could do their reputation, you may have written it a little differently.
I am in no way defending DLRC, and I don't buy from them anymore, but people really need to think about what they write here.
As for "people have a right to know", I don't think DLRC qualifies as a company that people need to be warned about.
Ok everyone. Thanks for all your varied opinions. As always.....I think this has been over subscribed. Let's put a fork in it. I do value everyones opinion.....even if I don't agree with all of them. Please read all of my responses about the subject. Many of you respond in a way that tells me......you don't get it.....and it may be that you didn't read all the facts.
Yes.....sometimes......I realize that even though the IQ level of these boards is way above the norm....we do get people who frequent it .....with less than a full deck. i.e. Calgold- You are a little simplistic. Either you didn't read the facts, are a dealer, or possibly a USER!! I figure it may be the latter...but don't want to jump to any conclusions.
If you think I am miffed because I didn't get a coin from a dealer at a loss (to them).....you are missing the entire point......as well as know absolutely nothing about me. That is ok.
I mentioned many times that I feel DLRC is a good company. That doesn't mean they are going to always score an A+ in Customer Service. Those type of companies don't really exist......due mainly to the human element. They didn't handle this situation correctly (I don't know what the best answer was..and that is why I asked for other 3rd party opinions on how it could have/should have been handled). I think the company has integrity.....and I believe the majority of my fellow collectors and board members would fall on that side of the fence. Even Win was very helpful on Monday when he gave me descriptions of the coin and took my order. Unfortunately.....the A+ on Monday.....was followed up by a D since then in the handling of this single transaction. John and I will hopefully talk tomorrow...and we can just go on from there. I will still do business with them in the future. I even hope that they are helpful in the future. I didn't mean for this thread to become so legnthy....but wanted opinions of 3rd parties not involved emotionally on either side of the transaction. Thanks to all for your input.
Oh...one more thing. At what point in a transaction do we own the coin we paid for? When payment is made and accepted? When it is applied to our credit card? When it is dropped at the Post Office? When it arrives at our house? Once we open it? If they had mailed the coin to me......and contacted me to tell me it was the wrong price......what should I have done? What would you have done? All things I have wondered today.
Time to repost the original message and start all over again!
I received an email from David Lawrence on Monday the 14th, saying they had a coin which matched my Want List. It had a price listed of $935.75 (with current 5% off). I quickly called and talked with Win. He pulled the coin and gave me a favorable verbal description of the coin. It sounded good to me, so I gave him my credit card information and was given a total with shipping of $943.75 and told the coin would go out by tomorrow (Tuesday). Today I came to work and viewed their inventory and saw a coin of the same date and grade (PCGS graded), but with a price around double what I paid them. I quickly wondered if that was the coin I had (thought) purchased. I called up David Lawrence and talked with Win again. He said they had mis-priced the coin on the email they sent me as well as the web-site. End of story.......I don't get the coin. Isn't it mine once he takes my payment information and verified the coin was available?? This is a huge Retail Coin Business.....not some kid on the corner selling coins. Is there anything I should be mad about? He tried to make me feel like I was taking advantage of him.......but yet I feel like I really got screwed good on this. What do the other collectors and dealers out there feel about this? Am I right or wrong to feel pissed off about the way he handled this? He never called me back......but says he had someone else email me at an email address that doesn't exist anymore. Why they don't use the one I have on record...and the one they emailed me on Monday about the Want List Match.........is beyond me. Someone tell me if I am justified to feel the way I do. I honestly did not know the coin was mis-priced.....but thought it was a good deal......since the last one I saw sell for around $1300+. Marc
Hell, wouldn't want all this fun to end anytime soon!
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Comments
If someone put up a BIN price of $1,000 on ebay and I buy it, that is a legal contract. The coin is sold. While it is not my style, people hunt for those things on ebay all the time. I recently sold a $300 coin on this Board for $125. An error?, sure. But, I wouldn't even consider asking to DK the deal. What happened to your word is your bond? A recently saw a coin I wanted to buy at a local dealer's shop. I asked for a price quote, and was quoted $200 too low on a $500 coin. I indicated to the dealer, who is also a friend that I thought his price was a little low and that I could pay probably at least a $100 more. I was told the quoted price is the quoted price and that that's the right way to do business. I agree.
Finally, the instant case is not just one of a typographical error. This was not just a email typo. The customer called and spoke to a professional numismatist, not a clerk. The price was quoted, and payment taken. The deal should have been done. If you have to eat a $1,000 loss, then you eat it. I've eaten worse.
Greg
I can say I admire DLRC for the high level of sophistication they have in their website and the way they do business. I respect a company that takes technology and makes it work for them. Sometimes it comes down to the human factor and this is where the problem came from and because of the human factor and the error then they should break even on the coin and make a happy customer.
my opinion
dragon
Again, thanks for those who show understanding and support. I don't mind the criticism... in fact I view it as a way to improve.
I don't feel the dealer is obligated to sell at a misquoted price. Quote all the legal BS you want to, but to me that's an unfair expectation, and I want to be fair. I would be unhappy, for sure, but that's expected.
What happens after the dealer catches the error and elects to void the sale is purely reflective of the level of customer service. An apologetic phone call with an offer for an adjustment on a future order would have been ideal. Unless I had done serious business with the dealer, calling me to apologize and asking if I would buy it at the "correct" price would make me suspicious that I'm getting jacked around. If I'm interested in doing that, let me bring it up. When I express my unhappiness, and you tell me that I'm trying to take advantage of you, that's going to upset me. I don't expect you to kiss my butt, but I do expect common courtesy.
John does come across like he is interested in maintaining good customer relations, and agreed this one wasn't handled well. No problem with that. Everyone makes mistakes. And employees don't always handle things the same way that the boss would.
On a tangent, this isn't the first thread that I've read where people said they offered them coins and didn't get a sniff. That's only irritating because their ads always tout their interest in buying.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Now let's talk coins!
(What was the coin, anyway?--I do not think it was mentioned in this thread!)
I always appreciate honesty, and think Legend is great.
However, whatever happened to honor. The buyer was not cheating anyone. He called and asked a profesional dealer for a quote, and he got it. If he thought the coin might be worth $1,300, and got it for $950, that is in line. Dealers often sell coins under the last auction price, especially if the auction was at a much higher than expected price. DLRC or anyone else should honor their price as long it was given by a responsible party in person or on the phone. In this case it was. This is not a cleark making a typo, it was a professional with coin in hand.
How do we know that 1 hour after selling the piece, he didn't get a call from another customer offering to pay much more, and so DKed it. How do we know the buyer didn't immediately sell it to another customer and so have to eat a loss. No, once a real deal is done, it should be done. The dealer should not be calling and trying to DK this.
Greg
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
I truly wonder if what is driving the anger is greed. Anything other than the coin at the REALISTIC price is a bonus. Take him at his word, and see if his idea of making it up to you is as honorable as I would imagine.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
While I had a personal negative customer experience with your company, I never questioned the mechanics of doing a deal with your company. However, after reading your posts, I can't help but wonder. What you seem to be saying is that if I call you or Win or any other professional at DLRC and get a firm quote and pay, that I do not know if I really bought the coin. I might get told several days later that you have the coin, but that your quote was an error and that the deal was not really done. Mind you, we are not talking about a clerical typo, but a real quote from a real professional with coin in hand. Nor, are we talking about a $6,000 coin quoted at $600, which I would and should be credible enough to question. We are talking about a coin within 50% of fair value (which is well within the range of what can be seen in dealer quotes). Please clarify whether my understanding is correct. If it is, I don't know whether I would be comfortable continuing to buy coins from your company. I only raise this issue here because of what you seemed to be saying in your public posts.
Greg
As I recall, this is the first time in over 40,000 coins that this issue has ever been raised, so if you uncomfortable with those odds, I don't know how to respond. On the other hand, if we make the same mistake again tomorrow, I will make the same ruling. I/We will not be bullied into losing $800 on an honest mistake. If you are not interested in being fair with us, then please don't order from us. Sorry.
To all of you this is a simple matter of "speaking your mind" but I take this quite seriously and the treatment I am getting from you is (in my humble opinion) more embarrassing than the mistake we made. Your comments are inordinately harsh. I have apologized but I will no longer be crucified. Have a nice day.
-John
p.s. Win is a great guy, a good friend and a GREAT employee. If you've been ever been on the rare receiving end of a shortness with him, myself or Jack, then accept our apologies. The three of us do more work and process/sell more coins than anyone you know. We're busy....and human!
My Dimes
<< If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right the first time! >>
I want to bring this thing to closure. Some of you go off on tangents that can't be applied to this situation. i.e. gave too much money to someone and they gave it back. Not the same.
1) Once again, I personally like the company and the coins I have purchased from DLRC. Service has always been A+ before this incident. Most of you have mentioned that the service has been good.
2) While I did not like the way this transaction went bad.....and the way it was handled (not handled)....My intention is not to "Bad Mouth" DLRC...or imply that they should be avoided. Rather, I asked for opinions from Dealers and Collectors to get an idea of whether or not I was over-reacting, and whether I was justified in feeling like I did.
3) This was not a case where I ordered it online (for the incorrect price). I called and talked to a professional numismatist who buys and sells millions of dollars worth of coins. He looked at the coin, described the coin, etc. and sold the coin to me.
4) I could not have and did not know the coin was incorrectly priced until this morning.
Again......I never wanted this to become a "flame" thread. One badly handled incident (from my experience).....does not warrant "bashing" DLRC. I have not......and did not do that. I tried to state the facts.....so you all would understand how I felt when I got off the phone (which wasn't good).
1) Win asked someone else to email me. They sent it to an email address I used 5 years ago. I don't know how their internal systems are set up. They emailed the offer to buy at my current (last 3 to 4 years email) that I provided when I set up my Want List. The Want List emails are most likely all automated.
Marcalan84's assumption that the price was correct is not unreasonable.
DLRC's buy price for the coin is in line with current full retail value for a solid to somewhat PQ example of this coin.
DLRC's ask price for this coin MAY BE high...not having seen the coin in question I cannot make a definitive statement to that effect.
No one here was trying to scam anyone.
RELLA
who boasts of twenty years experience in his craft
while in fact he has had only one year of experience...
twenty times.
During all this mess, did Win ever offer you an apology for their error?
If he did, then I 'd understand and let it go at that as an honest mistake.
But if he didn 't , and acted in any way like "screw you", then I would be VERY pissed, and would never do business with them again. All you business people should understand that if you piss off the customer, you lose their businesses.
I would really like to know, because I had thought about buying coins from them. Thanks.
Well, this is the only thing I WAS going to comment on, but marcalan84 expressed his sentiments just above. Yes, this is a coin forum and all aspects of US Coins is apropo - it is the responders who give it a flavor of responding to the thread, or injecting their perception(s).
There is NOTHING wrong about asking for opinions, particularly, since he only asked if he was overreacting.
What DOES bother me is how people get "tattled" on in this forum. Not that marcalan84 said anything derogatory about DLRC; as a matter of fact, what he expressed was completely validated. I wonder will he receive any consideration from the "tattler(s)" for being completely truthful.
1) Once again. THEY ARE AN EXCELLENT COMPANY (IMO). This is in spite of one bad transaction. None of us are perfect. Win DID apologize...but I think he was in a hurry (busy as John said..and obviously never called me to tell me the coin didn't get sent). He probably was feeling defensive (as was I) about the "transaction gone bad".
2) What RELLA said is all true. Nobody (DLRC or Myself) was out to "screw anybody". What I said earlier...was about how I felt (my feelings)...but not so much reality (unless they had done something wrong intentionally). They made a mistake...and probably handled it wrong (from my viewpoint...but correctly from their viewpoint).
3) I had just looked for opinions of other collectors and dealers to see if how I felt (lousy after talking with WIN).....was justified or if I was just over-reacting. I also wanted to know how similar situations were handled by other dealers.
4) Look folks......when two people are taking sides on an issue (Win and myself)......things can turn into a "pissin' contest".....even without trying...if it involves a few testosterone laden guys (Win and I). Doesn't mean he was out to get me. I just didn't like the fact.....that their mistake cost me a coin at an excellent price.....and I had to find out about it in the wrong way. I am sure they learned from it.......and the next time someone buys a coin priced incorrectly.....they will do a better job contacting the buyer.
<< <i>Nobody (DLRC or Myself) was out to "screw anybody". >>
Darn it!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
John please don't let the harsher people put you off.
Now if you guys would only start stocking some UK stuff from the 1800s to early 1900s ...
09/07/2006
We've established that there are lots of bad sellers out there and 99.999% of the time it's the buyer that gets screwed. The seller has every advantage in most cases and this forum sometimes is the only way a buyer can be heard. there's nothing wrong with posting problem sellers - i think most people appreciate it. i place stock in board member's comments; that's why i'm here in the first place!
that said - i don't think anyone will read into this thread that DLRC is a bad seller. i don't think anyone was trying to "screw" the other. it was just a case of poor communication. no big deal.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
...Ken
As a newbie I didnt realize how ugly these posts got.
I would say this to marcalan: Make a data point of the event and go about your business of finding nice coins that you like. The nonsell
very well might be a blessing in disguise. There are always more coins out there and most likely a nicer one...
To the dealers out there (of which I would eventually like to become one) I would ask this: If this situation were to happen again, how would you handle it AND (everybody swallow here, gut check time) how many times has an unknowlegeable collector/layperson walked up to your table/shop with a really nice collection that was inherited/passed down to them? You see the helpless rabbit in front of you, they say they want to sell these, you rip the collection even though the poor heir got what he asked for. (10000 dollars was alot to him!!) Would you offer a full refund because of a foolish blunder on his part if he walked in the next day after he realized his mistake?
Difficult question but definately part of what I call the dealer double standard and it applies to the situation at hand. I understand both sides of the story here because I vest pocket on the side but it is an issue that will plague the coin world forever. The only way of stopping it either way is complete integrity. What is the percentage that we feel comfortable making on a coin? When does a rip become fraud? 100% profit? 200%?
I guess all of our mirrors tell the tale at the end of the day, and only some of us, be it collectors or dealers, can look at ourselves and see someone we like looking back.
John Marburger
siliconvalleycoins.com
"Darn it"
You're a fiesty one arent you Lucy?
siliconvalleycoins.com
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Hows about "Bop a Lucy!!"??
Seems like that would do it!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
You got screwed without even getting kissed!
However, i don't think it was intentional on their part, sloppy [I can't say "unprofessional" as I don't view coin dealers as professionals, an overused term anyway] for sure and careless.
Let's face it, you dont need to be an Einstein to be a coin dealer, hence many are less than totally bright and many are crude.
DLRC is one of the good guys and they made a mistake. Simple. Choose how to deal with it, buy soimething else or avoid them.
I love that line
I would like to add one comment. A guy like John at DL will NOT intentionally screw anyone-and if he did try to do something he would NOT get away with it. WHY? There IS a place to go-the PNG (so long as the dealer is a member-John is on the board). Now I know this is probably going to start more flaming, but I have an important message concerning the PNG:
One thing they do NOT tolerate is members screwing the public. The PNG IS fantastic for IS resolution of real disputes. They DO take it VERY seriously, and all the rulings I have EVER heard of have been done "by the book" and without favoritism. So if John (DLRC) had really ripped someone off, there IS a place where ANYBODY can go-the PNG. I hope everyone remembers that.
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
CG
<< <i>91 posts (plus tihs one) because some guy is miffed that a dealer wouldn't sell him a coin at a loss. Give me a break.
CG >>
Bingo. Why do the "I got $crewed" posts always seem to get the most hits?
Ya right. I must be a real duck. I bought an 1875-S 20c sold by a major auction firm in a major auction as a branch mint proof (Au-50) I called the auction house and asked their estimate of value and was told something well over $1K (long time ago don't remember exactly) It turned out to be a couple hundred dollar regular issue. The auction company told me too bad and the PNG was brought in. They made the auction firm pay me back the buyers premium. Lost over $1K on that and still my biggest loss ever.
If your intentions were only to get opinions on whether or not you over reacted, then you could have mentioned the problem without saying who the dealer was. You seem to feel that DLRC is a great company and have had no problems in the past, so maybe if you had hesitated long enough to think about what a thread like this could do their reputation, you may have written it a little differently.
I am in no way defending DLRC, and I don't buy from them anymore, but people really need to think about what they write here.
As for "people have a right to know", I don't think DLRC qualifies as a company that people need to be warned about.
Yes.....sometimes......I realize that even though the IQ level of these boards is way above the norm....we do get people who frequent it .....with less than a full deck.
i.e. Calgold- You are a little simplistic. Either you didn't read the facts, are a dealer, or possibly a USER!! I figure it may be the latter...but don't want to jump to any conclusions.
If you think I am miffed because I didn't get a coin from a dealer at a loss (to them).....you are missing the entire point......as well as know absolutely nothing about me. That is ok.
I mentioned many times that I feel DLRC is a good company. That doesn't mean they are going to always score an A+ in Customer Service. Those type of companies don't really exist......due mainly to the human element. They didn't handle this situation correctly (I don't know what the best answer was..and that is why I asked for other 3rd party opinions on how it could have/should have been handled). I think the company has integrity.....and I believe the majority of my fellow collectors and board members would fall on that side of the fence. Even Win was very helpful on Monday when he gave me descriptions of the coin and took my order. Unfortunately.....the A+ on Monday.....was followed up by a D since then in the handling of this single transaction. John and I will hopefully talk tomorrow...and we can just go on from there. I will still do business with them in the future. I even hope that they are helpful in the future. I didn't mean for this thread to become so legnthy....but wanted opinions of 3rd parties not involved emotionally on either side of the transaction. Thanks to all for your input.
Oh...one more thing. At what point in a transaction do we own the coin we paid for? When payment is made and accepted? When it is applied to our credit card? When it is dropped at the Post Office? When it arrives at our house? Once we open it? If they had mailed the coin to me......and contacted me to tell me it was the wrong price......what should I have done? What would you have done? All things I have wondered today.
I received an email from David Lawrence on Monday the 14th, saying they had a coin which matched my Want List. It had a price listed of $935.75 (with current 5% off). I quickly called and talked with Win. He pulled the coin and gave me a favorable verbal description of the coin. It sounded good to me, so I gave him my credit card information and was given a total with shipping of $943.75 and told the coin would go out by tomorrow (Tuesday). Today I came to work and viewed their inventory and saw a coin of the same date and grade (PCGS graded), but with a price around double what I paid them. I quickly wondered if that was the coin I had (thought) purchased. I called up David Lawrence and talked with Win again. He said they had mis-priced the coin on the email they sent me as well as the web-site. End of story.......I don't get the coin. Isn't it mine once he takes my payment information and verified the coin was available?? This is a huge Retail Coin Business.....not some kid on the corner selling coins. Is there anything I should be mad about? He tried to make me feel like I was taking advantage of him.......but yet I feel like I really got screwed good on this. What do the other collectors and dealers out there feel about this? Am I right or wrong to feel pissed off about the way he handled this? He never called me back......but says he had someone else email me at an email address that doesn't exist anymore. Why they don't use the one I have on record...and the one they emailed me on Monday about the Want List Match.........is beyond me. Someone tell me if I am justified to feel the way I do. I honestly did not know the coin was mis-priced.....but thought it was a good deal......since the last one I saw sell for around $1300+. Marc
Hell, wouldn't want all this fun to end anytime soon!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.