I can't understand why nobody jumps in to fill the need of a better Greysheet
kranky
Posts: 8,709 ✭✭✭
This is a real mystery to me.
The coin market probably does half a billion dollars a year if not more. Many people sell coins full-time and many buyers spend five and six figures on coins each year. Yet all of them get pricing information from one source that is generally acknowledged to be severely flawed.
I see many posts where it's pointed out how far off certain prices are. Lots of pricey coins aren't listed at all. So, considering the amount of money that changes hands weekly, why hasn't someone figured out how to do it better than the Greysheet? It seems to me that it wouldn't be all that difficult to come up with a publication that doesn't try to cover every coin in every grade (for things like VF common date large cents, Trends is close enough, I'd say), but targets the things where the Greysheet falls short - high-grade moderns, varieties, incorporating ebay sale prices, etc.
From what I read here there is a real need for another source that fills the gaps left by the Greysheet.
I don't think it's worth trying to replace the Greysheet - after all, it does have value - but for all its obvious problems, and considering publishing a newsletter is a low-overhead business, I'm surprised no one has stepped in to address this need.
The coin market probably does half a billion dollars a year if not more. Many people sell coins full-time and many buyers spend five and six figures on coins each year. Yet all of them get pricing information from one source that is generally acknowledged to be severely flawed.
I see many posts where it's pointed out how far off certain prices are. Lots of pricey coins aren't listed at all. So, considering the amount of money that changes hands weekly, why hasn't someone figured out how to do it better than the Greysheet? It seems to me that it wouldn't be all that difficult to come up with a publication that doesn't try to cover every coin in every grade (for things like VF common date large cents, Trends is close enough, I'd say), but targets the things where the Greysheet falls short - high-grade moderns, varieties, incorporating ebay sale prices, etc.
From what I read here there is a real need for another source that fills the gaps left by the Greysheet.
I don't think it's worth trying to replace the Greysheet - after all, it does have value - but for all its obvious problems, and considering publishing a newsletter is a low-overhead business, I'm surprised no one has stepped in to address this need.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
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Comments
K S
<< <i>From what I read here there is a real need for another source that fills the gaps left by the Greysheet. >>
it exists. it's called 'coinnet'. and to a lesser extent, 'facts'.
The Blue Sheet is a real pain in the butt for dealers. In some ways I wish it would disappear and that the Gray Sheet would expand its coverage to cover MS-61 and 62 and MS-66 and 67. You get these collectors and speculators running around who think they are "entitled" to buy choice coins at those prices. I've given up those guys. I tell them in so many words that I can't help them, and that they need to look elsewhere if they will pay only Blue Sheet prices.
And I have totally given up on dealers who look at my high-end coins and try to buy them at sight unseen Blue Sheet prices.
Veep
Let's say you are a selling a year old used car with 7,000 miles on it. In the world of coins, the Blue Sheet guys are would be the equivalent of someone who looks that the price of the same car with 60,000 miles on it that’s been though a serious acident.
I don’t mind of collectors know the wholesale prices, but I do mind if they think they are entitled to buy at wholesale prices which leaves me no gross margin. Do you work you job for $0 salary? Do you work for $0 an hour? GIVE ME A BREAK!
BTW if you know of source where I can buy coins for 30 to 40 percent under bid, please let me know. If I could get those kinds of margins I'd gladly sell coins at bid.
This don't say much for these people.............Ken
I agree that the Greysheet couldn't be dislodged, and it doesn't have to be. My understanding is that in the areas of high-grade moderns, varieties, and a good number of MS grades (as BillJones pointed out), the Greysheet drops the ball badly. Those are the areas where there seems to be a good bit of market action, and also a lack of accurate pricing information.
It's not even necessarily a function of timeliness - for a lot of coins there is no source of information regarding value. I think it would definitely benefit the sellers to have this information out there. MrEureka made a good point. If there's a unusual variety, or high-grade modern in a case, I would be much more comfortable having SOME way of finding out what the thing is worth.
Remember, those of you who do this full-time have a good idea of pricing already. When people have some way of verifying a price, I think the market expands.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
for a particular coin. Any collector worth his salt knows it's a sight seen market. Will only pay ask for a coin that meets the greysheets explanation of problem free, etc. I deal with each situation on it's merits. 30/ 40 % back of bid is common knowledge. Shops have an easier time than vest pockets. Vest pockets used to have more luck at shows. The local Flea Market Ripper pays more like melt to about 50% back. In addition, the greysheet has lots of room for improvement, and like most other publications, it's not an absolute. I hope that demand will reflect a change, but in the meantime, There are many ways to get decent price info.
Personally, I don't think the retail price guides are anymore "exact", so what's the beef.
BTW, the only person(s) I've ever seen really use the bluesheet is/are dealers when its time to buy from a collector (or someone other than another dealer). Of course, that doesn't apply when it is used properly.
I still find it difficult to understand why so many dealers are so against the availability of the greysheet. Just about everyone who is "familiar" with coin buying and selling SHOULD be able to properly use these pubs. So, the people you have the greatest heartburn with either don't know how to use it (you can always point out the in appropiate caveats on every front page) OR they are simply trying to pull your leg.
Problem comes in because a lot of dealers actually believe only they should be privy to knowing what generics are bidding at. Even when they have a "dog" they won't let if go at or around sheet -- and the collectors know it. That is where all the consternation is.
That reminds me of some of the comments in the thread about millions of dollars of overgraded coins that don't sell. Those are the appropriate greysheet priced and below coin, but good luck finding someone to sell them at that price. Whose fault is it if buyers put too much money in these average coins; surely not the collector looking to buy.
There is nothing like buying coins for 1-2% of their real value (that is for moderns).
If they want to sell with those generic prices listed in that rag all the better.
Knowledge is power and if dealers want to park their brains and trust in the reliable old Gray sheet that's great.
Glen
Remember too, there are other guides though few have reached prominence of the Greysheet. For wholesale there are Numismedia and the Bluebook. For retail, there is also Numismedia and the Redbook as well as the monthly inserts printed by the major coin periodicals. Teletrade publishes their "real price" guide of realized auction prices. Heritage makes their auction prices realized available on line. They also have their Heritage Value Index. CU and other web entities (e-coin, etc.) have on line price guides. So there really are a lot of alternative price guides.
WH
<< <i>From what I read here there is a real need for another source that fills the gaps left by the Greysheet >>
don't take this the wrong way, but your worrying much too much about this, ie. a "pricing guide". there IS another source to fill the gaps - it's called experience. the greysheet as i understand it is nothing more than a guide to get the dealer in the ballpark value of the coin.
ie. 1 would expect, in fact, 1 would HOPE that prices in greysheet are "off", as coins are not commodities & ought not to be treated as such. ie, an ounce of gold bullion is an ounce of gold bullion & worth a set percentage of spot, giving the "wholesale" value. you won't get more money for 1 ounce of bullion gold over another because it's in a "higher grade" or has "more eye appeal". such is not true of coins. coins are individualized, & i would hope that the average coin would NOT be worth the average grey-sheet price.
think of it this way. the typical coin, on average, will be a little below or above average, based on the eye of the beholder. therefore, there is no "exact" price for it, just a general range for its value
K S
Good question. Shane?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
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