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Is it just me? Don't you find the prices of some modern issues outrageous?
I see no justification for them.
The most glaring example: 1995-W PR69DC SAE going for over $2000, routinely. Well, they say it's rare.
To me, a mintage of a little over 30,000, most or all of which I'm sure are PR68 and above, is NOT rare.
Another: 1991-S PR70DCAM SAE sold for $4100 tonight on Teletrade.
Another: 2003 MS70 four-piece set GAE advertised for $7950 on DHRC. Ouch!
Another: 2000 MS70 $10 gold/platinum Library of Congress commemorative for $1000.
These to name just a few.
This is crazy, but I guess as long as there are people willing to pay for them, they will keep on selling.
Any comments?
I see no justification for them.
The most glaring example: 1995-W PR69DC SAE going for over $2000, routinely. Well, they say it's rare.
To me, a mintage of a little over 30,000, most or all of which I'm sure are PR68 and above, is NOT rare.
Another: 1991-S PR70DCAM SAE sold for $4100 tonight on Teletrade.
Another: 2003 MS70 four-piece set GAE advertised for $7950 on DHRC. Ouch!
Another: 2000 MS70 $10 gold/platinum Library of Congress commemorative for $1000.
These to name just a few.
This is crazy, but I guess as long as there are people willing to pay for them, they will keep on selling.
Any comments?
0
Comments
Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
Tom
1 - Mintage
2 - Population
3 - an x factor between raw and certified price - some say if the raw price is x then a 70 should go four times, others 10 times and still other 20 to 50 times the raw value. We believe it depends on each series but for example the Gold commemoratives we think 10 times raw value is a fair price. But one year ago we felt 4 to 6 times the raw value was a fair value while others say 20 times the raw value.
4 - The demand difference between MS and PR
5 - supply and demand
There are many other factors which come into play but these are some of the factors we use to determine price.
Our fear is that some of these coins are over priced but at the same time others feel that these coins are under priced - go figure.
Lastly, because the material is new, it is harder to determine price compared to more traditional coins. No one really know what the end result will be. A perfect example of this will be the Roosevelt Dime Full Torch designation. What are the hard dates and the easy dates. It will take about six months to determine.
Todd
800.954.0270
commemorative aficionados, I agree that the prices for many of these issues has
become ridiculous, but there seem to be plenty of people out there with money to
burn who can and will fork out for them. I, for one, would not mind one bit if this
market would cool down. If I were selling, though, I probably would feel differently.
Dell
Thanks,
WH
Go on Teletrade. They've been having the bimetallic commemoratives in almost every of their auctions.
I have seen MS70 sold for $1000. Check their prices realized.
$1000 is an excellent price for a 2000 BIMLOC Gold in PCGS-70.
Brian.
The best way to see if you are getting a good price is to see how the dealers that are selling these items will pay to back up their market.
Write one of them an email saying that you have a Proof 69 DCAM (fill in the blank) to send to them on approval. See how much they will
pay in relation to what they sell them for. That is the real test on these coins.
Many (most) of these people are charging up to 1000 percent profit and they will not buy back at anywhere near what they sell them at.
Just some food for thought.
Be good,
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
Perfectomania will kill your budget now and kill your resale later.
Do yourself a favor if you like modern stuff. Get a halogen lamp, find raw U.S. Mint proof sets/Bullion in original packaging on ebay from NON modern dealers, buy them for 20 bucks a pop or near spot gold/silver. Find one that has no/VERY few (i.e one) hairlines and send it into PCGS.
Kazaam!! There you have proof 69 DCAM for your very own and you saved about 1900 dollars.... It might take a few tries but it will eventually happen.
Or even better get each years direct from the mint and save even more money....
Be good,
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
(will ttt it). The originator of the thread recently purchased a MS-66 for $22. The average col-
lector would have to shell out many hundreds of dollars to buy sets at 13 or $14 each to find
a coin of this quality. Then the grading fee etc would raise his cost even more. Granted, he would
have some other great coins too, but this would be unacceptable to most collectors, especially
those who collect only the dime or the half. This is not to say that the effort of finding these
coins is worth the sometimes steep premiums, just that the steep premiums are a result of the
demand caused by those who are seeking these coins already slabbed. There are a lot fewer of
these coins remaining unslabbed than most people realize. They look at mintages approaching
a couple millions and assume that these will be coming out of the woodwork for many years. In
point of fact, however, these sets have suffered tremendous attrition for decades. There were
large percentages already consumed or destroyed before collectors ever got interested in them.
Add in the fact that in some cases only small percentages are gem or even attractive and you'll re-
alize how tough some of them are- - and how much longer these will even be available raw.
I certainly agree that raw is the best way to go and have always encouraged people to seek mo-
derns this way. But few will be able to complete their sets this way and some are getting a head
start or saving a great deal of leg work by purchasing the slabbed coins. I've also always encour-
aged newbies to sell some coins as they go along to see the real costs of acquisition. Some slabbed
moderns do have a fairly high cost by this measure but most do not. When the raw coins are com-
pletely "gone" then you'll see a collapse between the buy and sell prices as the dealers have no choice
but to buy back coins already sold.
Understand and agree with most of what you say. I wasnt talking so much about MS-67 below type stuff as much as the really high end stuff. I know the market is out there. I am just one who wonders how much longer it will last. I dont think that you will see much of a close in the gap between this stuff. I think that most of it is going to go down as more 69-70 DCAMS of any denom get certified. I am biased though, I really dont like much of the modern stuff beyond walkers and Franklins. I hope that the market doesnt fall off. I think that would discourage alot of potential collectors.
I always stick with older stuff, whether it is gem or circ. I just collect what is beautiful and rare in my opinion.
siliconvalleycoins.com
Some are primarily interested in a complete set. Some just want something from a specific
year or place or that reminds them of another time. There are those who like things which
were once common or things which were always scarce. Some want something of a specific
composition or subject, or one of their heros. There are those who collect by color, denomi-
nation or even objects which were heavily used or widely used. There are about as many
reasons to collect as there are collections. I don't collect telephone tokens for the same rea-
sons I collect Ikes.
If your primary interest is rarity then you really should check out some moderns. And beauty
is in the eye of the beholder and can be influenced by more than artistic merit alone.
<< <i>There you have proof 69 DCAM for your very own and you saved about 1900 dollars.... >>
Which modern proof coins sell for $1900 in the grade of 69DCAM? Other than the 1995-W Eagle, which costs a ton to buy even raw.
Edit: The fact is that most moderns in 69DCAM might make back the slabbing costs.
Russ, NCNE
I searched Teletrade for the past three years (every year since the Bimetallic was made). I could not find a single PCGS MS 70 that has sold on Teletrade. I did find two NGC MS 70s that have sold in this time frame. One sold for $950 and the other for $975. One sale was in March of last year and the other in May of last year.
Wholesale Greysheet Bid on this coin (uncertified) is $860 and Ask is $910. Numismatic News Coin Market and Coin World Trends retail prices for the coin (again uncertified) are $925 and $1000, respectively. So, I don't think $950 and $975 is too out of line for an NGC 70.
If you see a PCGS MS 70 going for $1000 please let me know.
Thanks,
WH
Now, if Lucy decides that she wants to buy all the New Orleans and Carson City gold coins she can get her kitty paws on, then I will be in trouble!
outrageous prices for high grade moderns and it pleases me to no end
that many people are willing to pay reasonable high prices for high grade
moderns.
required to find these coins raw is not really relevent to their price. The price
is determined by supply and demand and this effort is often relevent to the de-
mand because collectors are unwilling or unable to do the work themselves.
There is opportunity in finding these coins raw simply because of the reasons
you state. In seeking a specific gem, one will encounter others and the castoffs
too can return a profit where there is a market for them (try selling a 75-D Lin-
coln raw in MS-63). Again though, these opportunities will not last indefinitely
and the gap between buy and sell will narrow suddenly at some point.
<< <i> There's another thread about a DCAM '67 dime right now.
(will ttt it). The originator of the thread recently purchased a MS-66 for $22. The average col-
lector would have to shell out many hundreds of dollars to buy sets at 13 or $14 each to find
a coin of this quality. Then the grading fee etc would raise his cost even more. Granted, he would
have some other great coins too, but this would be unacceptable to most collectors, especially
those who collect only the dime or the half. This is not to say that the effort of finding these
coins is worth the sometimes steep premiums, just that the steep premiums are a result of the
demand caused by those who are seeking these coins already slabbed.
I certainly agree that raw is the best way to go and have always encouraged people to seek mo-
derns this way. But few will be able to complete their sets this way and some are getting a head
start or saving a great deal of leg work by purchasing the slabbed coins. I've also always encour-
aged newbies to sell some coins as they go along to see the real costs of acquisition. Some slabbed
moderns do have a fairly high cost by this measure but most do not. When the raw coins are com-
pletely "gone" then you'll see a collapse between the buy and sell prices as the dealers have no choice
but to buy back coins already sold. >>
Hell, I've bought Proof Barbers 25¢ that didn't cost that much.
True, I bought it for the number on the slab but my goal is to have the highest graded 1997 PCGS coins possible so I see no problem there. I for one can tell the difference between a 66 & a 67 and it was solid for the grade and actually a nice coin, very lustrous, relatively mark free & sharply struck when I got it in hand.
Other than the 1997 issues I have no interest in Modern High Grade Clad or the people who collect them & the prices they pay but I can understand why they do it and don't fault them for their collecting preferences. I certainly don't recommend these coins for investing your life savings in but hey, I'm a collector having fun, not an investor worried about my $$.
For those of you interested in this kind of stuff: I have been needing a 97 in 67 for years and my efforts to make any only returned 66s. It seemed like it would be easy enough to make a 67 since there are supposedly millions & millions of bags, rolls and Mint Sets out there. For years the pop was 2/0 and the same guy owned them both. He offered me one several years ago, it seemed like he wanted around $1,000 for it and I probably would have bought it but I tried to negotiate the price and in the meantime some quarter Reg Set guy comes along with $$ burning a hole in his pocket and snatches it from my grasp. So now 6 years after issue the pop is 7/0 @ MS67. I can only document 3 others sold @ $800, $750 & $500.
Interesting enough, this coin wasn't made by a certain bigwig PCGS dealer or 2 who controls the market but rather by a little peon collector like myself.
I see terms like 'pet peeve' and how annoyed people are at this "trend". And I just don't get it.
Bad analogy time; When you go to the store do you buy generic or name brands? Why? Is one better? Do the people who buy the opposite annoy you? Is it a pet peeve you have that some people buy "magnabox" stereo's or "Apple Stacks" cereal?
My point is why should it matter to you? You buy what you like, others buy what they like. In the end the fact that people are buying at all means more variety in the marketplace.
Are the prices for high grade moderns outrageous? Thats for the buyers to decide. Should you care? Only if your one of those buyers. Otherwise collect and let collect, thats what I say.
I can't even imagine the looks she would give me, never mind what she'd say, if I wanted to spend that kind of money on a coin 5 or 10 or even 30 years old (younger than us), that they made 50 million or 200 million or even a billion of, most of which still exist in one condition or another, but this one is so nearly perfect and it's in a holder with a high number on it, and there are only a dozen or a hundred this nice, and yes, even though it looks just like your pocket change at first glance, it's "worth" so much more because, "see: no little marks on it!"
David Hall explains the phenomena pretty well in "A Mercenary's Guide": some people want perfection. If they can afford MS67 bust or seated or Barber coins, thats what they'll buy. If perfect classic coins are too expensive, they'll buy MS67 Walkers or Morgans. And if those are still too much, they'll go after MS67 Kennedies or clad Roosies or Jeffs or State quarters or, whatever they can afford in perfect, shiny condition. I say more power to them, and I hope they don't discover the value in older, rarer in any condition, circulated "real" coins before I have amassed a giant inventory
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
a mintage of 30,000 may seem like a lot when you can buy a 150 year old 3 cent piece or something with 1/10 the mintage at the same price. that's all well and good but the fact is that the only coin more widely collected than the SAE is the SQ.
so when you consider that for every person that collects 3-cent pieces there are probably 1,000 people who collect SAEs, the pricetag starts to make a bit more sense. if no one wants a 3-cent piece then it really doesn't matter how many there are.
not enough sense for me as i'm not in the market for a $2,000 SAE.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
Is there a risk of new super gems being graded? Sure. There is no way of knowing how many raw super gems are out there residing in bags, rolls, or collections.
The same applies to moderns. I do not care what others chose to do with their money. If you want to pay $500 for a 1967 quarter gey gezunta heit.
What I do object to is promoters who claim that there are few if any raw super gems out there. There is just no way of knowing if that statement is true. If they reside in bags or rolls or mint sets and high prices are established more and more people will search them out and they will come to the market. Those in collections however will stay put until the collection is sold. What can be said truthfully is only that the price has reached such and such a level and so far no or only so many new super gems have been graded.
CG
CalGold, your point is well-taken, but there are few if any raw super gem 1972-P circulation strike Ikes out there.
The probability of a huge cache of some of the toughest gem moderns being unearthed becomes smaller year by year. Many people are actively searching for them, yet the known examples remain astonishingly few compared to the mintages.
It is actually far easier (and, I would bet good money, will always be far easier) to find many common-date Morgans in gem condition than many circulation strike Ikes -- despite the Ikes being minted 100 years later and often in more massive quantities. When it comes to minting quality, newer ain't necessarily better.
Of course whether you think a condition-rare coin is worth the sometimes huge premium (and whether the difference in quality is discernible outside of the label) is a different issue. That issue is not unique to the modern market, it applies to many "classic" coins as well.
What I meant by my "pet peeve" is this. DEALERS (or anyone else out there selling these high grade moderns) who sell much of their product by giving their expert opinion on how these coins that they are selling are going to make the buyer a fortune. Those people that quote population reports like the Bible and prey on the newer collectors that dont realize that this hobby that we are all addicted to is filled with snakes in the grass that dont care so much about integrity, much less numismatics.
That is why I will restate my original opinion on these types and these types of coins. OFFER THEM THEIR OWN COINS BACK TO THEM AND SEE HOW THEY SUPPORT THEIR MARKET!!
So, if you are collecting just for the sake of collecting and you like ultra high grade, DCAM's because they are beautiful to you, awesome!! More power to you and I am sure that you enjoy your collection as much as I enjoy mine. However, a word of warning if you expect to make money on these coins.....Dont expect it.
More high grade coins will surface and the population report preachers will need to repent. And in my humble opinion, the pittance will be given in full from your pocketbook come the apocolypse (selling time, God forbid)!!
Can I get an AMEN!?!?
siliconvalleycoins.com
obviously, a few snakes in the grass out there. Generally they do not deal in
moderns. This is not to say that all modern dealers are always 100% above board,
merely that if you want to find a crook, there are easier places to find one.
Modern prices have been going up for eight years now and were given a huge
boost by the states quarters. While predictions about the future is fraught with
hazards and one shouldn't be collecting for investment reasons, these coins are
doing extremely well from an investment standpoint.
JK.
Seriously, that depends on who you ask. You have to look by series I think. Anything after indian cents, buffalo nickels, mercury dimes,
Standing quarters, Walker Halves, Morgan Dollars are modern in my mind. Anything Bullion is modern when it comes to gold.
It will be interesting to see what everyone else says.
Sorry about the wings comment. What is going on with your team?
A coin collecting Blues fan....
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