Is it just me, or does it seem to others that the letters "CC" on the back of a dollar makes it qualify for grades that for any other mintmark would downgrade it?
Yes, a lot of Mint State CC dollars are overgraded by a point, but there are still enough pieces on the market that are properly graded if you are willing to look for them. I'll pay "bid" for any properly graded, common to slightly scarce CC Morgan dollar. You can always find customers for them, and the bids have been going up regularly for past couple of years.
As to the question, why overgrade CC dollars, perhaps the theory is that a lot of these coins got banged around in bags and marked up. Since so many suffered that fate the grading should be more lenient. To me it’s a lousy theory.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
It was mentioned in the ANA Grading class that CC Morgans get a 3/4 point bump. So it's not just you.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
<It was mentioned in the ANA Grading class that CC Morgans get a 3/4 point bump. So it's not just you.>
That's a load of crap! (That comment was NOT directed toward you, Kranky.) That's like saying most 1801 half dimes are low grade so let's increase the grade of the survivors by 5 points.
The solution is to grade the coins for what they are, lower the supply of higher grade examples and let the market price take care of the rest. The only grading adjustments should be for the sharpness of the strike. No grading adjustments should be made because many of the coins are marked up.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Maybe we need a new submission flip. One that covers the mint mark.
Or better yet.....GLUE the coin to a piece of cardboard and submit it twice. Once for obverse and then get it back, soak off the glue and send it back. Two fees......one grade.
I agree with you completely, if there aren't many high grade CCs then that's the way it is. Artificially increasing the number by grading on a curve is absurd.
"It's far easier to fight for principles, than to live up to them." Adlai Stevenson
Where you guys been? The so called "market grading" has any coin in demand overgraded if you ask me. (Sums up my dissatisfaction with third party grading)
Actually, those LOOK like blemishes only, albeit a tad weak in strike. As far as '80-CC dollars go, I think it's a nice specimen. I'd like to have it, but not at that price.
I would like to add that the size of those pics also contributes to how obtrusive those marks appear. Probably not that bad looking in person. Could be a 65
The great use of life is to spend it on something that will outlast it--James Truslow Adams
While I don't disagree that CC dollars are market graded, there may be something to the story of them being more prone to bagginess. Weren't they shipped by bumpy stagecoaches or wagons for part of their journey? Whether or not that was the case, they had certainly more overland traveling to do. A bag of S-mint or O-mint coins was within easy distance of a boat ride, which probably jarred them a lot less. Maybe this is the reason the CC's get a slight "curve"?
Let's not jsut point the finger at the CC dollars. As a rule, every early US coin (pre-1837), and in particular the pre-1810 coins, has been bumped up at least one full grade in recent times. Witness the liberal grading on bust dollars. You can make a decent case that grade flation as a rule has added 1/2 to 1 full point (3/4 is the average) on all classic coins over the past 10 years. So this means CC dollars have been bumped by 1.5 pts? Doesn't seem to make sense.
All but one of the early coins that I have sent to PCGS within the past couple of months have been given grades that range from right on to undergraded by 5 to 10 points. The lone exception was a 1796 dime that I graded EF-45 and they graded AU-50.
The NGC coins grades of ranged from 1 point too low for a couple of Mint State items to 25 points too high for circulated items. The way things are now those who own properly graded and undergraded coins are at a disadvantage in this market.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
The explanation that lordmarcovan mentioned (the stagecoach ride taking a toll on the CC Morgans) was the one offered in the grading class. That leaves me scratching my head, trying to figure out why we should cut slack to a coin because it had a bumpy ride from the Mint, but apparently that's the way it is.
I can understand why adjustment marks on very early coins don't hurt the grade, and why die polish doesn't. But once the coin leaves the dies, the playing field ought to be level for all coins. To me it's no different than saying copper coins stored in Florida should get a bump because it's humid and they are more prone to spotting.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
If that 80-CC Rev. of '78 was an 1893-S or 1884-S, it would have been graded a 63 at best. PCGS grades all different dates in the Morgan series by a different standard, that's been known and accepted for years. I think the worst of all the overgraded CC's is the 1885-CC, I see many in PCGS 66 holders that are like strong 64's.
I've bought and sold the 1880-CC reverse of '78 and the 1893-S in "true" MS-64 a few times. I've never handled a great 1884-S.
I agree with your view on the grading of the 1885-CC. I purchased the first "true" MS-64 in an MS-64 holder that I have seen in a year or so at the last Baltimore show. I don't know why the services overgrade that date so frequently.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I think the 85cc can be lumped in the market grade effect as well given the flat line of the prices (i.e. vg8 about $225 and $260ish in AU50 or $400ish in MS64).
That CC dollar looks nice to me. The lustre is there, IMO and marks are only one of several factors used to grade MS coins. A lot of folks just look at the cheek but the coin graders take the entire coin into account. Well, that is the way it has been explained to me. Heck, the more I look at slabed coins the less I seem to understand about grading.
I sent 2 CC's into PCGS and IMO one was graded correctly and one was way undergraded. That is to say both were way undergraded by several points!! I guess I need to crack them out and re-submitt them. I picked up a NGC MS67 O mint that I bought from one of the board members, that I knew it was over graded by at least two points or more. I sent it in to NGC to see if they would honor their guarantee. I just knew they would down grade it! Well, I got the coin back, and now it is in a MS67 * holder?? They bumped it up a notch!! The coin does have super color and the original "skin" of an unmolested, undiped coin. Like I said, the more I look at slabs the less I understand.
Maybe that is why I collect mostly U.S. paper...
Banned for Life from The Evil Empire™! Looking for Nationals, Large VF to AU type, 1928 Gold, and WWII Emergency notes. Also a few nice Buffalo Nickels and Morgan Dollars. Monty...
Finding an 1885-CC in circulated condition is about as easy as finding one that is properly graded in a slab. There are very few circulated 1885-CC dollars out there. That why the price structure is flat lined.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
BTW, the 1880-CC rev of 78 in MS65 is tough and perhaps undervalued. In light of some of the increases lately for CCs, perhaps it may not be unreasonable.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Not to be glib, but I think that this is one of those times when PCGS would be validated if they flipped this coin in the holder, or atleast give it an obverse/reverse grade. 5 is not warranted for that obverse in my opinion. Jim
Most were hauled all over Reno by LaVere Redfield in a pickup truck that he would not buy batteries for so it always had to be bump started which jarred the dollars around.
The balance were shipped in black plastic holders in blue lined felt black boxes.
my experience with 1884 cc dmpl gem dollars in 65 pcgs is harshest on this coin when grading for the most part i really do not know why i guess it is good for me as if you can buy a really neat nice high end 65 dmpl 1884 cc for 65 prices you got a fantastic deal
i think this is why ythey are really incrreasing in price and really if you think about it not really an increase to buy and pay a premium even a hugh premium for a near miss or evan a 66 dmpl in a 65 holder
as in a 66 holder worth over 2000 65 holder close to 1000
i have seen hundreds many many hundreds of ms64 65 cc coins in holders and they are bagmarked to hell
if any other silver coin series around the same dates even halves and quaters they would never get never never the grades of these cc morgans
sincerely michael
i mean look at many regular even dmpl pl coins cc morgans ms 64 63 and some 65's they are bagmarked to hell
Comments
As to the question, why overgrade CC dollars, perhaps the theory is that a lot of these coins got banged around in bags and marked up. Since so many suffered that fate the grading should be more lenient. To me it’s a lousy theory.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
That's a load of crap! (That comment was NOT directed toward you, Kranky.) That's like saying most 1801 half dimes are low grade so let's increase the grade of the survivors by 5 points.
The solution is to grade the coins for what they are, lower the supply of higher grade examples and let the market price take care of the rest. The only grading adjustments should be for the sharpness of the strike. No grading adjustments should be made because many of the coins are marked up.
Maybe we need a new submission flip. One that covers the mint mark.
Or better yet.....GLUE the coin to a piece of cardboard and submit it twice. Once for obverse and then get it back, soak off the glue and send it back. Two fees......one grade.
No? Oh. Back to snagging.
K S
I agree with you completely, if there aren't many high grade CCs then that's the way it is. Artificially increasing the number by grading on a curve is absurd.
Where you guys been? The so called "market grading" has any coin in demand overgraded if you ask me. (Sums up my dissatisfaction with third party grading)
Actually, those LOOK like blemishes only, albeit a tad weak in strike. As far as '80-CC dollars go, I think it's a nice specimen. I'd like to have it, but not at that price.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
roadrunner
The NGC coins grades of ranged from 1 point too low for a couple of Mint State items to 25 points too high
I can understand why adjustment marks on very early coins don't hurt the grade, and why die polish doesn't. But once the coin leaves the dies, the playing field ought to be level for all coins. To me it's no different than saying copper coins stored in Florida should get a bump because it's humid and they are more prone to spotting.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
dragon
I agree with your view on the grading of the 1885-CC. I purchased the first "true" MS-64 in an MS-64 holder that I have seen in a year or so at the last Baltimore show. I don't know why the services overgrade that date so frequently.
I love Ike dollars and all other dollar series !!!
I also love Major Circulation Strike Type Sets, clad Washingtons ('65 to '98) and key date coins !!!!!
If ignorance is bliss, shouldn't we have more happy people ??
I sent 2 CC's into PCGS and IMO one was graded correctly and one was way undergraded. That is to say both were way undergraded by several points!! I guess I need to crack them out and re-submitt them.
I picked up a NGC MS67 O mint that I bought from one of the board members, that I knew it was over graded by at least two points or more. I sent it in to NGC to see if they would honor their guarantee. I just knew they would down grade it! Well, I got the coin back, and now it is in a MS67 * holder?? They bumped it up a notch!! The coin does have super color and the original "skin" of an unmolested, undiped coin. Like I said, the more I look at slabs the less I understand.
Maybe that is why I collect mostly U.S. paper...
Looking for Nationals, Large VF to AU type, 1928 Gold, and WWII Emergency notes. Also a few nice Buffalo Nickels and Morgan Dollars.
Monty...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Jim
Most were hauled all over Reno by LaVere Redfield in a pickup truck that he would not buy batteries for so it always had to be bump started which jarred the dollars around.
The balance were shipped in black plastic holders in blue lined felt black boxes.
Weren't they???
i really do not know why i guess it is good for me as if you can buy a really neat nice high end 65 dmpl 1884 cc for 65 prices you got a fantastic deal
i think this is why ythey are really incrreasing in price and really if you think about it not really an increase to buy and pay a premium even a hugh premium for a near miss or evan a 66 dmpl in a 65 holder
as in a 66 holder worth over 2000 65 holder close to 1000
i have seen hundreds many many hundreds of ms64 65 cc coins in holders and they are bagmarked to hell
if any other silver coin series around the same dates even halves and quaters they would never get never never the grades of these cc morgans
sincerely michael
i mean look at many regular even dmpl pl coins cc morgans ms 64 63 and some 65's they are bagmarked to hell
looks like a train ran over many
sincerely michael