Question: How does a Coin Tone? Are they heated?

godzglory

Hello,
Title pretty much says it all, I've been seeing lots of toned coins for sale and have been wondering if they are natural or man made. Thanks for your answers.
Greg

littlewicher

Ah, the neverending toning issue. Some coins acquire their toning naturally, while others are artificially enhanced. The whole issue gets extremely complex.

Tonekiller

Incoming!!!!!!!!!!

TBT

tjkillian

Toning can be caused by heat or chemically. Just becareful as this is a very sensitive subject around here. I would do a search on artificial toning.

Tom

ARCO

With the big money chasing toned coins. You can be assured that many if not the majority of toned coins have been helped along with the intention of toning them by human hands.

You will just have to stay and follow many threads to get all the nuances and points of opinions that exist about naturally toned and artificially toned coins. Much too difficult to break it all down in one thread.

Tyler

godzglory

Thanks for the replys, hmm looks a Big Can of Worms hehehehe. Ahh well live and learn.
Greg

JoyofCollecting

Toning (natural, artificial or any other kind) is what happens when a mint state coin becomes just an uncirculated coin.

And yes, I love most uncirculated coins and their mint state bretheren.

wallstreetman

Most are man made and given a star for originality!

nwcs

Forgetting the politics of it all...

Toning is a chemical reaction between the coin's metal and the environment. The environment can be solid, gas, or liquid (don't think plasma applies here, maybe). Sometimes this leads to beautiful colors, sometimes it does not.

Now to the politics...

Some types of toning are considered market acceptible and many people agree on some of the attributes. For example, most people consider mint bag toning and storage in holders for a long time to be market acceptible. And most people agree that putting ammonia on a coin to add a color or heating a coin to add color is not market acceptible. There is some gray area between these two.

The price for market acceptible toning is highly variable. It's basically worth a great premium to those who appreciate the color. Some color is more dramatic than others, so commands a relatively higher premium. But there are some who do not like color at all, so they do not attribute a premium for it. Still, plenty do. And for those who do, the price guides go out the window and the price is basically how much you want to spend.

Neil

Iwog

Toning on silver coins is silver sulfide. Silver sulfide is formed when hydrogen sulfide in the air comes in contact with the metal and oxidizes it. Hydrogen sulfide comes from tap water, cooking, matches, volcanos, and industrial sources. Silver is a very stable metal in air and water and is not affected by most acids, bases (including ammonia), and salts. Silver sulfide is black in color, but thin layers of it can bend light and reflect it in different colors.

When a coin tones, silver metal is converted into silver sulfide and is no longer maleable or highly reflective. Toning damages the surface of the coin although the extent of this damage depends on how deep the oxidation goes. This oxidation of silver is a one way process and cannot be reversed on the coin. Dipping a coin removes the silver sulfide (toning) but leaves the silver intact. In the coin industry, dealers will almost always and without question dip ugly toning and spots off of coins they sell. The majority of coins sold as "original undipped white" have been dipped/cleaned at some point. Morgan dollars are an exception since zillions of them were kept untoned in bags.

In the early 1980's some coin collectors went insane and decided that dull black silver sulfide looked pretty neat on some coins, even if the oxidation did destroy the luster in most cases. Since that time, good looking toned coins have demanded a premium over white coins. Although the original ANA grading standard excluded any coin with impaired luser from getting higher than an MS64, this qualification is now utterly ignored by all the grading services. In fact, some coins with no more reflectivity than a piece of cardboard are sitting in MS67 holders.

In 1990, there were very VERY few examples of rainbow toned Morgan dollars on the market. I remember a typical long beach bourse floor might have had 3 or 4 stunning examples on display, priced accordingly for the entire show!! Today the situation has gotten ridiculous with some dealers showing off entire cases of rainbow beauties and a colorful ebay coins everywhere you look. These are being created for the market and passed off as "natural toning" since they are close enough to bag and roll toned coins to pass through certification. The supply of these will keep increasing until the market goes bust.

The reason this is such a heated issue is that huge sums of money have been gambled on colorful coins being of limited supply. No one who pays $1000 on a rainbow toned Kennedy half dollar wants to believe it was cooked up in 5 days by a high school kid with a chemistry set, therefore ANY suggestion that artificially toned coins are being passed off as natural will be instantly attacked. In a similar vein, people like myself who are convinced that toning (oxidation or RUST as we call it when the metal is iron) actually damages the coin are also flamed for the same reason. Big bucks causes big emotions.

gsaguy

Iwog is right.

All toned coins are damaged and have been man made....especially those with bright rainbow colors. If fact, the idea of mint bag toning is just a vicious rumor that was started by a coin doctor many years ago to cover his tracks. The market for these coins has gone to crazy levels and is near the tipping point prior to total collapse.

I feel badly that I've done my part to make this market crazy. I am therefore willing to help collectors who have fallen into this trap. I'm willing to buy all Morgan dollars with bright rainbow toning and lots of luster. That's right, I'm doing this out of the goodness of my heart.

If you've mistakenly fallen for this craze, please let me bail you out before you lose everything. Just PM me with scans of your coins and I'll be glad to get you out before we hit bottom.

I'm doing it............for the children.

GSAGUY

stman

<< <i>I'm doing it............for the children. >>



Boy you guys will say anything

Higashiyama

One clarification of Iwog's point may be useful, particularly the statement "the original ANA grading standard excluded any coin with impaired luser from getting higher than an MS64."

This is a true statement, and is true of current ANA standards. However, ANA standards do not preclude toned coins from grading above MS64. In fact, the standards state that artificial toning or overdipping will impair and downgrade a coin, but color per se will not. Further, the standards for many specific coins specifically indicate that an MS65 grade may be appropriate when toning is slightly unattractive, for example "[an MS65 coin] has full mint luster but maybe unevenly toned or lightly fingermarked"

Bear

Coins can be baked or broiled,

but boiling is best left for the lobsters.

Iwog

Although light toning does not impair luster, heavy toning or repeated toning/dipping does. A minority of toned coins fall into this catagory and they can be identified by lots of flash and fire underneath the color. Incidently, these are the same coins that will dip out a brilliant blast white.

Which reminds me that it's time to rant about luster again. Starting a new thread.......

dorkkarl

if the question is "are all these wild-n-colorful coins a-t?", there's 2 very simple, very basic things you need to know. 1's a basic rule of economics:

supply will try to meet demand.

& the 2nd thing you need to know is a simple observation that you've already made:

right now, demand is absurdly strong for wild-n-colorful coins

you can figure out the rest

K S

BillJones

Although I don't agree with everything that Iwog wrote, I do agree with his implication that a lot of the colorful coins that are now offered in and out of slabs are of "recent manufature." It's your money, but remember this. Sometimes fake toning is not stable. Years from now that bright beauty of today may become the black horror of tomorrow.

DoctorOfTone

Iwog,

Just about everything you said is indeed true except for one statement "Silver is a very stable metal". This is true if you live in space or a vaccum here on earth. Since silver reacts with air, water, sulphur, many acids including nitric and sulphuric. The solutions that are used to pickel and dip are also reactive with silver as is citric acid (lemon juice), the acid which we call vinegar and even Coca Cola's secret acidic formula. And in our silver coins resides a very, very reactive element which is copper. Which as we know reacts with just about everything. A stable metal is gold, now that is stable, does not tarnish or react with hardly anything except strong acids.

The Doc

Iwog

Not correct.

Silver is impervious to most acids with the exception of nitric acid and hot concentrated sulfuric acid. It also reacts with ozone. Silver does not react with air. Silver does not react with water. Silver does not react with bases. Silver does not react with Halogens. Silver does not react with coke, vinegar, or pickle juice. Silver is extremely stable and non-reactive.
L
Copper reacts more readily than silver does, but is not a very very reactive element. It's also only 10% of a silver coin's composition.

Please go easy on the misinformation, the coin hobby is awash in it already. Here's a link for more information on silver metal.

gsaguy

<<A minority of toned coins fall into this catagory and they can be identified by lots of flash and fire underneath the color. Incidently, these are the same coins that will dip out a brilliant blast white.>>

Blasphemy!

GSAGUY

wallstreetman

Im sure glad Silver is so stable, Im already sick of hearing my wife complain about how often she has to polish that tea set! Im getting ready to Gold plate it!

Iwog

Silver's one weakness is hydrogen sulfide. It comes in with the tapwater, natural gas, and food. Take those out of your house, and your silver teaset will stay nice and bright for years.

DoctorOfTone

Iwog,

Untrue, hydrogen sulfide is not the only thing in a house that will react with silver. You are way off. Chlorine gas, bromie, sulfur dioxide gas, not to mention an entire group of organisms that will cause big problems for silver. . Why do you insist that it is stable, it is not. Stainless steel is stable silver is not, gold is, copper is not (even 10% is plenty to make silver even more unstable). And as far as vineger and air, wrong again. Air has oxygen in it and the minute silver is introduced to it oxidation occurs. Vineger reacts with sulfur compounds in the atmosphere creating sulfuric acid. Coke reacts with silver coins as it attacks the copper.

Iwog

Listen, I honestly want you to stop making up stuff and call a chemistry professor at your local community college. I tried giving you a link which you apparently ignored, and instead are dead set on being right no matter what the cost.

Please.......I'm not flaming you, just stop this nonsense. I tutored chemistry for two years while at UC Davis so I know a little bit about the topic, and I HATE giving credentials. So just call someone in the field and have a discussion. I'm asking nicely.