Numerical Grade Hits Collector in Face

Singapore

If you look at old time, unslabbed collections, you'd see coins arrayed in those cool wooden trays with like felt behind them, the coins would look great and nowhere, no how did the grade appear anywhere - nobody wrote it down, put it next to the coin, wrote it on a little slip of paper, etc.

Now you buy a slabbed coin and the grade is displayed in the most prominent place possible in huge bold font positioned ideally to smash anyone looking at the coin directly in the face.

Whats the point of this post? Thank you for asking. Its that 3rd party grading hasn't just changed grading, its made grading the most important part of coin collecting. And thats a big difference.

I've often wondered how much people would care about the grade if, for example, the front of the holder said 'Lincoln Cent, 1909-S VDB, and the grade was in little tiny font on the back of the holder. It think it would make a huge difference.

nwcs

I think it's an issue of degrees. When I first started collecting, I was very interested in grades. And this was over 10 years before I even had the money to buy a slabbed coin! Maybe it's just me, but I can look at a coin and see its beauty and the grade and see its grade. The issue just doesn't bother me. BTW, all my 2x2s, rolls of coins, etc that I had as a kid had grades on them. I guess I'm not an old time collector.

wallstreetman

COLLECTING ANYTHING IS ALL ABOUT CONDITION! Seems Im having to use capitals a lot this morning!

Julian

Collecting anything is about enjoyment. The grade of a coin does not enhance its beauty. Beauty & rarity are what drives the desirability of the collectable, whether it is coins, currency, dolls or trains. Richard Picker, a long time dealer in colonial money, never graded anything. He simply priced it. The grade should not be the definition of a collection. Enjoyment should.

wallstreetman

Hey mister dealer, Do you have these in VF?

No, just MS!

I will give you twice as much in VF if you can find some!

wallstreetman

Sorry Julian, I happen to think an MS coin looks a lot better than VF! If someone cant afford MS then they should consider a more common series!

dbldie55

Julian is absolutely correct. If you can only enjoy a coin if it is top condition, then collect a series that you can get in these grades. People collect worn down, holed coins. Why? They enjoy them.

Telling someone they shouldn't collect a series because they cannot afford high grades is the comment from someone the world could do without. Fortunately, very, very few follow ignorant statements like that and the ones that do will probably quit the hobby in a short time as they had no ENJOYMENT.

As for the topic of this thread, today we have a new type of collector that cannot enjoy a coin without a number boldly attached to it. This is a very minor group of collectors, as I am sure the number of collectors of raw coins far exceeds the number of certified collectors. Certification is just a fact of life with the hobby today.

Clankeye

I just recently purchased a commem in the lofty grade of MS62. I have never owned a commem in that "low" a state of preservation before.

I look at it and the grade affixed at the top is absolutely meaningless to me. No--I take that back. It brings me great joy, because I can't believe that this great looking coin is so undervalued because of the number on the plastic--that I got it for the price I did.

I passed on a number of 64's over the last couple months before I went with this coin.

Hard to imagine, eh?

Carl

AbesNeighbor

Coin collecting used to be a "Quiet" hobby. Many of the great coins could even be viewed by the small/ common collector. That's one of the reasons I enjoy smaller coin shows..You still get a little of that old time flavor.

Enter the era of the Internet, E-bay and mass sales of coins in other auctions. Add State quarter interest and hype books on set collections, and there is a whole new era in collecting.

When I began some 35 years ago, My dad and I would go through rolls and rolls of coins and he would buy proof sets...most of the coins in our collection were "Found" coins.

When I began buying on E-bay with overgraded, overstated descriptions and all the hassles that go with that, I suddenly realized, I can't buy raw coins on E-bay.

Even with graded coins you end up with coins at the low end of the grade.

Shows are the best but if you are addicted to the hobby like I am, this Forum and the Internet are my most useful collecting tools.

Dan

wallstreetman

Clankeye, Im glad you found an undergraded coin, if that is what you mean! If I offered to throw in the extra money, would you rather of had one of those 64s?

wallstreetman

What someone collects is up to them! Im just saying, try to collect high grades, you will be a lot happier in the future! Remember, you dont have to collect the whole series, buy the KEY dates! Instead of buying 3 VF, buy 1 MS!

Clankeye

No thanks, WSM. I can afford a 64 just fine on my own.

Clankeye

MS68

Julian- I am in total agreement with you that collecting coins should be done for the enjoyment it provides. Part of that enjoyment is making sure we are getting value for what we are buying. Collecting the grade on the holder regardless of what the coin looks like can be a costly endeavor when it comes time to sell. The grade on the holder should only be used for a verification that what you are looking at is as nice as it appears. As many collectors, and dealers for that matter, have a difficult time determining the technical and aesthetic merits of the condition of a coin, the grading services with their staff of professionals on hand, provide a valuable service by lending their expertise to the purchaser to help make sure that he/she does not buy an overgraded and therefore overpriced coin. This service (the grade on the holder) should only be used after it is decided that the coin meets your approval and then only as a second opinion to back up your own. This has been previuosly stated dozens of times on this forum in a much more succinct manner. "Buy the coin, not the holder."

MrEureka

3rd party grading hasn't just changed grading, its made grading the most important part of coin collecting.

Not quite, but the focus HAS shifted too far in that direction.

However, Singapore's point about the holders themselves is 100% legit. I've long advocated a mini-slab (with an inconspicuous grade) that could fit in an album. Unfortunately, I almost always get a cold response when I bring it up. Most people seem to like things the way they are. So I guess Singapore and I are just dinosaurs longing for the days of coin cabinets and Wayte Raymond holders. Sigh...

CYBERKEN

Don't blame the graders, blame the money. If each numerical grade added only 10% to the price, the difference between 63 and 65 would be uninteresting to most people. The collectors have voted, and the grade rules-and will, from here on...

cladking

Grades are prominently displayed because they have become so important to
a large segment of the hobby. It is natural that condition is important to coll-
ectors especially after many years of being advised to buy the best they can
afford or the best they can understand.

Typetone

I admit that I am a grade/plastic junky. However, my 11 year old son is a true collector. He goes to coin shops and auctions, picks out what he likes, and decides how much to pay for it based on how it looks. He is totally unconcerned about the grade or if it is even graded. If the dealer won't sell at his price, then he doesn't buy it. One of his projects is an almost complete Dansco album type set, that I have been helping him build. We go to dealers and look at circulated coins. We have never taken the ANA grading guide or looked at the dealers grade on the 2x2 (they are all probably overgraded anyway). If we like the coin, he decides how much to pay and trys to buy it. A few of the coins are cleaned. Who cares. He bought a great red braided 1/2c for about $25 dollars. Uncleaned it would grade AU or even better. The dealer told us it was cleaned and sold it cheap. People still ooh and ah when they see that piece in his book. He has a rare date seated dime which has a partial hole. Probably grades EF without. The dealer sold it for $10. Partial hole, who cares. So, if you are spending a great deal of money, you should care about the grade. But, if you want a nice and interesting collection, without spending a fortune, you can do it. Just focus on the look of the coin.

Greg

Typetone

One more thing. As I expand my 19th Century type collection, I realize that many of the types are too expensive for me in Gem plus condition. Instead I need to buy MS64 and below. So, I am spending a lot of time looking for these coins in nice eye appealing condition. When you find them they can be as beautiful as gem pieces at much less cost. What great buys these coins are. However, they are hard to find. For example, I have been looking for a capped bust quarter in MS63 for some time without success. They are out there, but if nice, no one wants to sell. Here is an example of an MS64 capped bust dime that I bought from Mike at Larry Whitlow. I'm not sure I could have done any better with an MS65 at three times the cost. BTW, the scan is a very realistic representation of the coin.



Greg

MrEureka

Grades are prominently displayed because they have become so important to a large segment of the hobby

CladKing, I believe that you have mistaken cause for effect. The grading services CHOOSE to prominently display the grades because bringing focus to the grade perpetuates the system on which grading services and their biggest customers (dealers) thrive.

Yes, the quality/grade of my coins is very important to me. No, I do not need to see a boldly printed grade every time I look at my coins. Give me a nice 2X2 minislab with an inconspicuous grade and serial number and I'd be happy. But like I said, I'm a dinosaur.

Cam40

Shows are the best but if you are addicted to the hobby like I am, this Forum and the Internet are my most useful collecting tools.

I can relate to that.
Also,I,d personally love to hear of some of you and your Dads best roll finds over the years.
Can you list a few for us? Thanks.
Lots of great thoughtful posts here.This is super readings.
WSM-I like your thoughts on what to collect.Keys and MSs.
Clank-Which Comem did you get ? I still need to add a classic commem to my collection.
Anyone got a good Texas Commem for a good price out there?

Clankeye

Cam40. It is a Monroe commem. I really like the kind of Art-deco look to the reverses of those. Also, interesting history.

Carl

nwcs

You know, this is all rather amusing. If grade was irrelevant, then there would never have been grades. And the ANA would never have tried to standardize grading. And companies like ANACS and PCGS would never have been even necessary. It's obvious that grade is important. It's the connection between value and the coin. But it is not the coin itself.

Every collectible has a grade, an appraisal of value. Classic cars are priced differently according to preservation. Historical artifacts are the same way (an intact artifact well preserved from 2500 years ago is worth more than a spotted and stained one). So are books, stamps, documents, toys, whatever.

To me, the grade is truly a market grade. It's an appraisal estimate of the coin's relative value in the market. To ignore it is to make it ambiguous and hide the fact that we are all graders. But the appraisal is not the same as the coin itself.

I guess I don't struggle with all this?

Neil

Cam40

Well said Neil.

And Clank,That is something a bit unusual.That reverse.I didnt see the two female figures
until I read the write-up.
Very cool.
I want one now.

CLASSICS

value.........thats what changed it all........as the years passed collectors were willing to pay for thier coins... for the rare coins, one no longer could one just pull one from thier change , and some coins appeared to be in better condition than others, so, prices increased. jim ruddy wrote a book on how to grade your coins. there was good ,very good all the way up to b.u., yes a good coin was worth much less than one in b.u. condition.......why, because collectors made it this way. they now had value worth more than face value...... it became the market, and not just a hobby............coins now became a business.........business and value.....thats the way it is, and thats the way it will stay . in the 1950,s one could go to the bank, and get original bags of morgan dollars...........hard to beleive but true.........now look at thier value!..........{coins today are a business supported by those willing to pay for a coin.}........ its value is determinded by its condition...........the collectors, hobby people, and investors have spoken.......thats just the way it is.......