What would you do in this situation?

jbsteven

I listed 2 1865/4 overdate coins on ebay the other day and had a person send me a email stating the coins were his that had been stolen from his house about 2.5 years ago. The coins are a 185/4 Indian in AU and a 1865/4 .02 piece in AU. The holder that I bought them in was a older Capital Plastics holder that holds the 2 coins. The dealer I bought the 2 coins from pretty much has stated that they are my coins now and that he will not return them. The person who contacted me lives in the same city as I do so for his story as the cojns being stolen and being in the same city is valid. The person I bought the coins from states he thinks he bought them about a year before the person on the phone stated to me that they were stolen.

The coins were purchased by me for $100 and then the next day someone has stated they are stolen and he wants them back. I have a problem just losing a $100 becuase of 2 things: First the person I bought them from does not want them back and also the person claiming they are his does not sound willing to compensate me for them.

There was a police report filed when the coins were stolen (claimed by the person the phone) but I am sure the exact coins were mentioned in the report but who is the say they are his?

If these were my coins and I found them on Ebay I would at the very least compensate the person who had them for them especially since I told the person the phone that I had bought them just the day before.

What would you do?

littlewicher

Just because he lost two similar coins, doesn't mean that yours are those stolen ones. Obviously anyone would feel sorry for the guy that his coins were stolen, but without solid proof they were his, I wouldn't give them to him.

ah

Perhaps it's a scam, how did the character that claims the coins were stolen from
find you ?

beartracks42

I think that I would need more concrete evidence of this person's prior ownership of the coins before I would consider handing them to him. The time table between when the previous owner sold them to you and when this guy says his coins were stolen makes it uncertain that your coins are the same ones that he lost.

jbsteven

the person on the phone seemed to be credible sounding. Probably in his late 60's. He said he was a coin dealer in my city a while ago. I listed the coins on ebay.

FatMan

I would notify the police and if a report was filed I would show them the receipt and let them trace the coins. Chances are they will not be able to conclude the coins are the ones in question, but if they can, return them to the rightful owner and file a complaint against the the person who sold them to you for selling stolen goods. I believe you could win your complaint in small claims court. I believe this is much ado about nothing though.

jbsteven

fatman:

not really the way I would want to do it. If the coins were worth more than what they are then maybe.

APA1709

If it were me, I Would offer the coins back to the person for what you paid for them....so, there is no loss for you, other than potential profit. But, I would gladly miss out on potential profit in an effort to do the right thing for someone....PROVIDING....you can prove they are his coins, his story is credible, etc. Otherwise, I would sell as you planned. Just giving the coins back and pressing charges against the person that sold them to you, will be a huge headache, and you dont seserve that either. If this guy isnt willing to "work" with you, then that's too bad. BTW, did he receive insurance money for these? i.e., maybe he's gained insurance and then recoups the coins and you get all the headaches??? I dont think thats fair....good luck.

jbsteven

ttt

Baley

I'd ask him to copy me his receipt for the coins, some proof of ownership other than his story.
If he doesn't have proof, tell him that if he wins your auction, you will pay for shipping.

relayer

There is a compromise on selling stolen property.

On one hand it can never be sold legally since the seller doesn't have the right to sell it. However, if everyone had to know the entire background of all merchandise it would place an undo burden on commerce. So the rules are somewhere in the middle.

You should call your State Attorney General and ask what the limitations are in your state.

copperhead

I think as others have stated here. I would try to obtain more information from the police and "possible" previous owner.
If in fact they are his coins and he can produce evidence of the same, I would try and be reasonable and return the coins to him. He most certainly should offer some type of compensation to you for your trouble.
I certainly wish you the best of luck. I don't envy your situation one little bit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

jbsteven

I don't have a problem returning the coins to him but I feel like it will be me that got ripped off. We are only talking about $100 but it is still the principle of me getting the shaft. If they were my coins I would offer some kind of finders fee or reward. Heck if he bought a coin from me I would call it even.

darktone

jbsteven, I think you and this guy that claims these coins are his should contact your local police department and let them handle it from there. He can not expect you to just hand them over to him. Also I am not sure if you could get in trouble for selling stolen property if they are indeed stolen but you know they are in question of being stolen property and that might get you in trouble if they are. I think it would be best to stop the auction. Good luck with this and please let us know how it turns out. Mike

greghansen

I'm assuming you have asked him is he has scans with a file date preceeding the theft that would help prove the coins were his. If he didn't keep scans of his coins, has he been able to produce any other tangible evidence of ownership (receipts, etc.?) In the absence of that, I would tell him I'm sorry I can't help you.

anoldgoat

Could be the guy is truthfull and they are his. Could be they are stolen and a friend told him to look on ebay for them. Likely

Could be a simple scam for $100. probly not

Could be a more elaborate scam. Somehow get you address thru this scam and break in to your place since they now know you're a collector.


I'd stop the auction.
I'd contect the police in his (your) town.
I'd contact ebay later after the smoke setles.

Best of luck, mike

satootoko

The law varies quite a bit from state to state. Even though a thief generally can't pass legal title, in most American jurisdictions there are exceptions and variations on the rule when it comes to innocent third parties who acquire the property in good faith for value. What characteristics of the coins make him believe the ones you have are the ones he lost? If he did collect on an insurance claim, the insurance company acquired his rights and is the proper claimant. How detailed was the description he gave the police? (At the very least he needs to produce a copy of the actual police report.) Again, in most jurisdictions the person in whose hands the owner finds his stolen goods can go back up the chain, which leaves the one who acquired the property from the actual thief as the one holding the bag. Good luck.

coinguy1

If (and it's a big if at this point) the coins are indeed the ones that were stolen, title never passed when they were subsequently sold.

The legal owner is entitled to get them back, without paying anything. However, each transaction that occurred should be reversed, where, hypothetically, you get your money back from the guy who sold them to you, he gets his $ back from the guy he bought them from etc. The loser, if there is one, is the person who bought them from the thief or representative of the thief.

TheNumish

I had the same thing happen to me with some rare comic books. The guy's x-wife stole them and sold them to a local comic book store. I bought them and put them on ebay and the owner saw them. All I did was sell them back to the guy for what I paid. He was happy and I didn't lose anything.

If the coin store owner was any kind of man he should help figure out where the coins came from and make sure you don't lose anything. $100 is a low cost of keeping a good reputation.

The thing that bothered me the most is that it turns out the comic book store knew the comics were stolen when they sold them to me. They were afraid they were going to lose a few hundred bucks by returning them to the owner. I never went back to that store and now see he's out of business.

Max

You know, I had a 1933 Saint stolen from my pickup about 20 years ago. I saw the coin up for auction at Stacks last year and contacted them. I am still waiting for a reply on when they plan on returning my coin.

presleyh

Stolen property belongs to the person from whom it was stolen. The person from whom you bought the coins should step up to the plate and refund your money and persue the person from whom he bought the coins. It is highly likely that those are the guys coins who contacted you. It is too great a coincidence that they would be in the capital holders, in the same town as his were stolen. If the paper trail indicates these are his coins, you have an obligation to return them. You would expect the same treatment if they were your stolen coins. You also have a right to persue the guy who sold them to you. Forget the profit angle, you will be lucky to break even.

ANACONDA

Generally a seller of stolen property can not pass good title unless it is a buyer in due course purchasing from a merchant. Or something
like that. What is a buyer in due course? I can't remember. Law school has been like 12 years ago. I think, though, it's essentially a
consumer. It's in the Uniform Commercial Code which has been adopted by most states, probably yours.

Now, to answer your question. I would send the guy who claims the coin(s) are his a certified letter that states that if he will join or is
a member of the ANA, that you and he shoul submit the dispute to the ANA and if he and you agree to abide by it's decision.

If they find against you, you have ammunition to go after the guy who sold you the goods if you got a reciept and he doesn't claim that
you are switching coins. (Another reason to deal in certified coins with serial numbers.)

If the guy isn't a member of the ANA or won't join, I'd tell him that he bears the burden of proof and that he is going to have to come up
with some proof that is more convincing than "it's mine!". Tell him you'll be reasonable but not a pushover.

Also, before you hand over the goods, try to get the guy who sold you the goods to get on board....if he is a good guy and should be
persuaded that the goods are stolen, and he is willing to make good to you, then that will make it easier for you.

In the final analysis, try to put yourself in that guy's shoes (the guy who alleges that your coins are his stolen coins) but don't forget
your fiduciary duty to your family to preserve their wealth.

adrian

ANACONDA

Max: Welcome and ......good one!

goose3

I'd also find out from him if he made a claim on his insurance for the coins. If so, He may have been compensated for the coins by his insurance company. If that is such.........the coins may technically belong to them!

I would see what kind of documentation the guy can provide to prove that they are/were his.

jbsteven

I have told the guy who claims the coins are his to produce the police report. He states that the holder that they are in was a custom holder and a 1 of a kind. I might contact Capital plastics and see what they say. He told me he had the holder made in the 70's, so the capital plastics thing might be a long shot.

presleyh

Of course, if he can prove they are his coins, you won't have to do anything else. The boys in the black and white cruiser will be out to see you pretty soon.

ANACONDA

An employee stole $10,000 from me (my bank reimbursed me). We have a videotaped confession from an accomplice, and it's all been
turned over to the police.

Not a single person has yet to be charged. This happened in October of 2002.

So, yes, the boys may show up but don't wait by the door.

goose3

Snake.....
you need me to come and work security at your shop?

lathmach

Coins with some rare exceptions, are fungible. The person claiming they are his will have a serious problem in getting them from you if you decide you don't want to just hand them over.
The nonsense about title to stolen property never having good title is just that. Nonsense. State statute of limitations govern the length of time when good title can be passed on stolen goods. Fungible goods have good title at all times. For instance, dollar bills are fungible. If I steal your dollar bills and spend them, you have no recourse against the merchant with whom I spent them, although you may well be able to prove they are yours.
Let's have one of the current practicing forum lawyers answer this.

Ray

presleyh

The police are generally pretty good at going with you to retrieve your property, not so good at prosecuting the crime. If they are convinced the guy can prove they are his coins, they will probably ride out to get them and give the option of peacfully giving up the coins. I have retrieved property from pawn shops twice and a stolen motorcycle this way. In all three cases the view point of the police was "Ok you got your stuff back lets let it go at that". Both times the pawn shop gave up the items free of charge. In the case of the motorcycle the teenagers father even paid for the damages to the bike in exchange for me not filing charges. That was a tough call, but the detective pointed out that I could win the war but lose the battle. He advised to take the money and forget it.

Typetone

I would stop the auction. If there is a question about them being stolen, you do not want to be involved in the chain. Do not sell property you think might be stolen. Then go back to the dealer you bought them from, and ask for your money back. Let him know that you suspect they are stolen and will go to the police if he doesn't return your money. Then tell the collector who contacted you that you are not selling them and that you returned them where you bought them. Make sure you tell him the dealers name. That's what I would do anyway. Then let him go to the dealer and call the police if necessary. At least that's what I would do.

Greg

ScarsdaleCoin

You guys missed one really good point....why dont you ask this guy if he collected insurance $$$ when they were stolen...if he got paid by the insurance company for the loss then the coins now tech belong to the insurance company !!!!!

jbsteven

here is what I have done up to this point:

I sent the guy a email asking if he had collected any insurance money. I also asked if he could produce a receipt for the Capital plastics holder and the police report. I ended the auction just incase they really are his and he can prove it.

Also please note I was ripped off for $13,650.00 from a Ebay transaction about 2 years ago (don't ask, long story) and have a hard time trusting people from Ebay that contact me out of the clear blue as I am sure you can understand.

On another note I have a bunch of really nice toned dollars coming back from PCGS in the next day or two!

BigD5

You don't have to do anything until this "guy" comes up with proof that the coin(s) are his. I wouldn't contact Capitol plastics or whomever. Let him know that when he has concrete proof that the coins are his, you will be more than happy to cooperate. Until then, I'd offer free shipping if he's interested, and the auction will continue, as you purchased the coins from a legitimate source, and have no reason to believe an "out of the blue" email claim.
If the coin(s) are raw, he probably won't have anything firm, as far as proof of ownership (I doubt an "older" gentleman will have scans hanging around of his stolen collection, but you never know).
As far as the insurance thingy, unless he took out a special rider for a coin collection (highly doubtful), there won't be any record of an insurance payment, specifically for coins.

joejeweler

LOL.....good one Max!



<< <i>You know, I had a 1933 Saint stolen from my pickup about 20 years ago. I saw the coin up for auction at Stacks last year and contacted them. I am still waiting for a reply on when they plan on returning my coin. >>

Dabigkahuna

Just because the dealer who sold them to you in the first place says he won't accept a return doesn't mean that he's off the hook! Even if he didn't know they were stolen. You paid him money for the coins that now turn out may be stolen. I agree that you should cancel the aucton and remove any photos. Let the buyer produce his own proof and see what your local police dept. has to say about it.

Larry
Dabigkahuna