Some thoughts from the grading class
nwcs
Posts: 13,386 ✭✭✭
Well, today is day 2 of the grading class in Charlotte. It's been very fascinating. Trying to describe everything here would be daunting, so I'm just going to bullet point some things I've picked up. Jim and Brian are awesome! Met two board members, too, so that was fun!
* The graders at PCGS and NGC are incredibly good. Listening to them and watching them grade and describe coins just humbles me. I never realized how lacking in skill I was in this area till I could compare myself against experts. I don't think I'm going to argue grades I get anymore!
* Grading copper is evil. So many ways it gets manipulated. Altered color, altered surfaces, shoe polish, camel brushes, ammonia treated, etc. Raw copper is a dangerous area to go into unless you know what you're doing.
* Others have said this, so this is a repeat. But now I see how true it is: look at the coin first! Read that last sentence about 100 times in a row. Get a feel for the coin first and then look for problems on the coin. After you've seen a variety of grades, your instinct will put you pretty close to the final grade.
* Luster is everything. It can make or break the grades
* Discoloration doesn't necessarily mean circulation. It takes exposure to coins to see legitimate AU-58 versus a slightly discolored MS-62.
* Grading from photos is also evil. You can get a general idea +- 1 point or so. But now I see just how inadequate a photo is.
* The graders at PCGS and NGC are incredibly good. Listening to them and watching them grade and describe coins just humbles me. I never realized how lacking in skill I was in this area till I could compare myself against experts. I don't think I'm going to argue grades I get anymore!
* Grading copper is evil. So many ways it gets manipulated. Altered color, altered surfaces, shoe polish, camel brushes, ammonia treated, etc. Raw copper is a dangerous area to go into unless you know what you're doing.
* Others have said this, so this is a repeat. But now I see how true it is: look at the coin first! Read that last sentence about 100 times in a row. Get a feel for the coin first and then look for problems on the coin. After you've seen a variety of grades, your instinct will put you pretty close to the final grade.
* Luster is everything. It can make or break the grades
* Discoloration doesn't necessarily mean circulation. It takes exposure to coins to see legitimate AU-58 versus a slightly discolored MS-62.
* Grading from photos is also evil. You can get a general idea +- 1 point or so. But now I see just how inadequate a photo is.
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Comments
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
Excellent post. I have taken these and they are priceless. I am glad you decided to attend.
"Luster is everything". Don't ever forget that!!!!!. Also, luster may be everything, but eye appeal
is KING!!!!
Brian
Carl
I think everyone should take this class. I'm serious, you don't realize how bad you are till you start really learning.
Yes, eye appeal is king and luster is the first citizen of the kingdom. You can even have some marks but the eye appeal be so great that the marks don't knock it down too much. Also, you have to take into account the date and mint of the coin within a series, too. Sometimes coins, like an 1899 $5 or early 1900s $10 Libs are treated differently from the 1920s and 30s $10 Libs and later $5s.
Still, though, one thing you have to do is not start looking for marks when you look at a coin. Get a feel for the coin and let it tell you the grade at first and then start looking for the marks and such. Also, the market grade now makes sense. It's an appraisal of the coin, not a clear definition of a state of preservation. If you accept that, grading makes much more sense.
Neil
The last paragraph in what you just said should be committed to memory by every numismatist alive.
Brian.
Everyone should read it.
Thanks for the post.
Sounds really interesting
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Grading Quiz
Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns
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I wish I had seen more high-end coins before I took the class because I kept admiring those killer coins (like the MS67 Walkers and Mercs you mentioned) instead of grading them dispassionately.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I was with you all the way until the very last sentence.
IF, and that is a big if, you accept that ... That's my dispute. I don't want an appraisal -- I'm looking for a "clear state of preservation." That way, a 65 is a 65 is a 65.
BTW, even in the "appraisal" business, one company's appraisal is usually very nearly the same as another.
That must be a wonderful experience to be at the ANA grading class. I've watched their grading lessons on video, but it would be so nice to look at many coins. Are you shown many raw coins with problems so you know what to look for?
I just try to teach myself how to grade by looking at several certified coins and raw ones I own, ones at shows and at my coin club. It would be great to hear how it is done first hand by the PCGS and NGC graders.
You are correct by saying a coin cannot be graded by a picture alone. Computer pictures do not show small hairlines from a cleaning or many other problems.
FrederickCoinClub
* whizzed
* prooflike
* overdipped
* if gradable, anywhere from 64 to 67
* need to see the reverse
* I can say it is a morgan dollar, though.
Kranky, it's all your fault.
One other tip, look at the best coins in a given date series to see what a coin can achieve. Then it'll make sense how to grade it lower when you find marks and problems.
Neil
I can grade that one a $29.95.
Neil, my favorite coins - the proof Buff with the lightly toned rev, the 67 Walker, the fully turqouise wheatie, the half cent with the streaky planchet, the $20 Saints, the Princess, the SLQs, the........OK, I loved them all.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Neil
how did you get dollar from ricks picture - I'll guess dime PR63 (J-1586)
Edited to add: $29.95? Make that $29.95 plus the juice.
Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns
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PR63 CAM? I would never be able to grade that right unless in person.
Got to see some great coins, though. 1794 dollar and half dime, 1795 half dime, 1891 full proof set, and others that were awesome!
Good thread and I tend to agree with you on just about everything you said...copper has always been tough for me to grade.
I just wanted to add a footnote on lustre. Lustre is more than just reflectivity. Just because a coin looks bright doesn't mean it is dripping with lustre...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
It is remarkable how after just a couple days of looking at these, being able to ask the graders themselves "why this?" or "why that?" just how much better one becomes at understanding how modern "market" grading works.
The first shocker to me was that market grading has absolutely nothing to do with technical grading. I thought there was some relation, in fact we were even given a copy of the ANA Grading Standards book, but, at least with respect to mint state coins, it is gone. I reckon, in retrospect, that grading circulated coins still goes by the general standards that were in place while technical grading was the norm, but who really cares about an f15 when you know there's a 65 right in the next slot of the slab box.
The second shocker was one of the NGC grader's comments about copper. This has never really been a type of coin in which I was greatly interested, and after hearing him rant for three days about "copper guys" I don't think I'll be delving too far into that area. In other words "what Neil said."
I won't list all the "shockers," as anyone who's interest is whetted by these threads needs to follow through and get into one or more of these grading classes, but will give you my favorite tips gleaned from the seminar.
1. Luster, as Neil wrote, is king. Each series, and various mintmarks and years within the series, have their own luster norms, and it is best to learn them. A great thing to look for in luster is the reverse image of the strike from the opposite die. This is hard to describe, but perhaps best seen in a Barber half or quarter. The wings of the eagle, as high points on the reverse, provide a very subtle difference in the luster on the obverse, and is seen while rotating the coin, as kind of subtle,shadowy luster waves on the obverse, protruding from the chin and back of the head of liberty.
Removal of the top layer or layers of metal through cleaning, and more deviously through whizzing, affects the way this effect comes through. Some of the great instruction NCS slabs were whizzed coins that looked so very good that they had the appearance of great luster, but which in fact was not original dynamic luster, but a subdued, even shine the look of which eventually becomes obvious.
2. There is a great 21 P Morgan in the grading set that has the most intense die polish marks on the reverse. It looks, on first inspection, as though it has been hairlined to death, but in fact it is die polishing lines. I've always had problems with these, but have learned that, as opposed to cleaning hairlines, die polish lines will go right up to a device, pass through it and come out seemingly from under the other side of the device. This is due the fact that the device is incused on the die, and that the polishing of the field allows the sandpaper or emery to get right up to the edge of the device.
Normal cleaning of a coin with a brush, for instance, will not be able to get tightly up to the edge of the device, it will have to sort of jump up and over it. The best diagnostic for this is to find a point on the coin where the line is hitting say an "O" or a "D" and check to see if the line goes through the device. The only way this can happen is if this was done before the coin was struck.
(Planchet striations are another tricky area, but here you are looking for lines on the highest points of the coins, where the flow of metal did not reach the deepest part of the die, allowing the imperfections to remain.)
3. Look at as many high grade coins as you can. Brian Silliman, from NCS, several times made the statement that once you've seen the best, it is easy to see where another coin fits in relation to it. I've found that Heritage auctions are great for looking at a lot of coins. Go to the show, sign up for the auction, sit down and look at as many lots as you possibly can. I've seen some of the world's best known examples of various coins this way. (I've also spent much more than i could have imagined at the auctions, but hey, I'll live.)
The advantage of the class is that while you are not necessarily looking at pop tops, you do have the ability to ask why this, for example mercury dime is a 67* and not the freakin 64 that it looks like to you. (yup, in addition to copper I think I'll be leaving these alone, at least for a while, at the highest grades.)
Gail and Barb from the ANA education department are swell and the amount of information that we as a group of 25 soaked up from the three graders provided by NGC/NCS could not possibly be measured.
If you ever get the chance, do it.
z
Thanks for the information!
This is a class I gotta take! was hoping to make it this week but
was out of town on another project......maybe next year!
Check out my PQ selection of Morgan & Peace Dollars, and more at:
WWW.PQDOLLARS.COM or WWW.GILBERTCOINS.COM
coinkat is exactly right. Luster is not brightness per-say. It is a texture, a flow, a quality that is in-between other things. And brightness does not always correspond to good luster. You can have a bright coin in 64 and a less bright coin (same date/mint/type) be a 66 because the quality of the luster's nature is better.
This class is excellent, and I recommend everyone take it. Ken's right, too, about testing yourself on auctions. I spent three hours with heritage, though I didn't go to any auctions.
Neil
What I learned in two weeks of classes (one week each of the last two years) would have taken me 10 years (if I was lucky) to learn on my own. I second the above recommendation to attend if you ever get the chance.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Come on over ... to The Dark Side!