please give your two major concerns with third party grading
michael
Posts: 9,524 ✭✭
please comment on what you think are the biggest problematic concerns you have with third party grading
comments???
sincerely michael
comments???
sincerely michael
0
Comments
My next complaint isn't really about the grading compaines but anyway I think people put to much weight on what the grading co. says about the coin. I've passed on plenty of coins that i would have loved to add to my collection but the sellers were selling the plastic grade not the coins grade.
I buy the coin and not the holder, so I really don't care what the slab grade is, but it can be frustrating at times!
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I'd prefer to see the technical grade and decide myself how much the coin is actually worth based on eye appeal.
no, you didn't read me wrong: i unhesitatingly support 3d party grading! in fact, getting a 3d, 4th, 5th opinion & more is just about the smartest thing you can do in learning how to grade coins.
so what's the problem? it's abuse of 3d party grading that bothers me. those dealers who would market slabs as the end-all to grading, as if YOUR OWN opinion is worthless. those blinded idiots willing to pay thousands upon thousands dollars (make that $350 MILLION) for the privilege of hearing somebody else's OPINION about a grade. that's what bothers me.
had you asked about "slabs" rather than 3d-party grading, my answer would be different, but 3d party grading represents nothing more than another opinion on the grade of a coin, & it's foolish not to be willing to listen to other opinions on a coin's value.
but the bottom line is always the same: you should be honest w/ yourself, & if you like the coin, really really like it, then the price does not matter. buy it!
K S
2. This is more of a by-product of 3rd-party grading, but... pop reports. They aren't accurate, and never can be, but people who don't understand that can be misled by them.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Walt
Differing standards among so-called professional services - I really don't understand why there is so much diversion between the companies as a whole. Why is one company's 65 another's 68?
Number 2. The use of high grades to bilk unsuspecting new numismatists into paying highly inflated prices for very common coins. Slabbing has really curbed (but not totally ended) the practice of taking sliders and selling them to uninformed people at wildly inflated prices. It has however aided and abetted the marketing of “condition rarity” coins at inflated prices.
Mike
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
Grade the coin by the book and let the actual market dictate its value- do not try to make the market.
BUT the big question is will they learn AND stay in the hobby after they have been burned to the tune of many thousands of dollars? I paid a few thousand to the numismatic school of hard knocks, but I'm a coin addict. Not everyone is "infected" with that disease.
The Big Three PCGS, NGC and ANACS have done more for the Hobby than all others combined. They have shown collectors, especially new collectors, what the grades of coins really are, even though they do miss on occasion. If the Hobby was in the same state that it was in during the early eighties I know one person for sure that would not be a participant.
Yes the school of Hard Knocks was learned then.
Ken
<< <i>My next complaint isn't really about the grading compaines but anyway I think people put to much weight on what the grading co. says about the coin. >>
<< <i>My major concern is that collectors put their faith in the HOLDER and not the Coin >>
<< <i>those dealers who would market slabs as the end-all to grading, as if YOUR OWN opinion is worthless. >>
The above quotes sum it up for me. I think you'll notice a trend there....
jom
Some time ago I bought an accumulation of circulated Indian cents. Most of the coins were not valuable enough to be slabbed so I packaged them up, graded and priced them.
One collector came up and said, “You ACTUALLY graded these coins?” as if I had ventured into some uncharted territory on my own with out the aid of a professional hand.
“Yes,” I said. I felt like saying, “Yes, and I’ve got lights, magnifying glasses, a pair of eyes and 40 years of experience at coin grading,” but I held my tongue.
<< <i>PCGS, NGC and ANACS have done more for the Hobby than all others combined >>
completely disagree w/ regard to the hobby. however, they have done a very great deal for the business.
K S
Did you use one hand to accomplosh the feat or both hand??
To some degree grading companies have really educated a lot of collectors
on the general look of a certain grade. If a collector takes that general knowledge
and fine tunes it a little bit, they are quite capable of grading a coin consistantly in the series they
tend to routinely collect to within a half to one point range. While I am more comfortable selecting
the best coins from the best 3rd party graders, I regard very highly the opinions of a few of my
regular coin dealer sources.When I utilize the grading company, My own judgement and the
opinion of an experienced dealer, very rarely is a mistake made on the purchase of a coin. Of cours
their are few bargains in the coin industry. Top quality coins cost more, but the quality difference is worth
when it is time to sell.
Camelot
Brian.
1. I wish grading services would stay out of the "Market Making" business. Using PCGS as an example (risking being banned for life
2. To avoid confusion, designations should be standardized between services. For example, DCAM, UCAM. Why not use one? It sets the services apart, but, adds a touch of confusion.
That's my Two Cents worth...
2. YOU CANNOT SEE THE EDGE! HOLDERS ARE TOO BIG AND BULKY. Holders should be not much larger than a dollar. PLASTIC SCRATCHES TO EASILY - distorts the coin.
2.5 Fascinating areas such as 19th century U.S. medals are neglected by newbies because they are not slabbed.
2.7 Collectors are increasingly having their collections controlled by third party grading firms. Fortunately there are clubs such as JRCS and BHNC that provide member census information on the worlds greatest collections of early U.S. coins without a requirement of third party grading.
I own many slabs but have never submitted a coin for grading.
peacockcoins
i have, which i believe i have voiced in the past (in non bagging, fair minded ways) is the basic methodology employed by the major grading services in grading their coins which is consensus grading where the grader is essentially one guy who finalizes the grade that is rendered by two or three (or less or more???) other "graders". Essentially, from what i understand, the finalizer is really the guy who grades the coin. He can "override" the other graders (essentially, the advisors), either way. So what you have is essentially one guy grading coins with a few other guys who advise him.
I believe i have finally have come to understand why the major grading services grade this way. It is because of the challenges of control....they certainly can't control the grade of each and every coin....and they really don't want to have to 'know' each and every grader and whether they truly can grade according to the companie's standards (which is subjective and is a moving target as admitted by the services) ....but they do believe, i believe, that if they "know" the finalizer and are confident of his grading, then they don't really have to worry about the grading of the other guys, something that they are convinced they can't really know anyway.
The second major concern.....
i have is the lack of impact eye appeal has on final grade. I have seen many seriously ugly coins in 68 holders. Saw a proof 68 Barber Half recently in an NGC holder that i would not have paid 63 money for if it were raw. I was clean but butt ugly. I have also seen PCGS coins that were dark and lacked eye appeal but were accurately graded, if accurately graded means eye appeal doesn't count for much. I offered a PCGS Proof 65 Seated Dollar (a consigned coin) not long ago that was simply not attractive.
It is my opinion that the grading services are under valuing eye appeal.
My suspicions are that in the future when a more objective rational approach to grading is adopted and widely accepted, something that might be a while.....or take place soon like in the next couple of years or even less if just one person wanted to step forward and take a risk that could pay very big dividends, people with coins that are ugly (but clean and original!) will get left holding the bag.
adrian
Most of your coins are only tied for the finest known.
Camelot
I find your explanations to be the root causes of the inconsistancy that is so despised, but also, the fact that eye appeal is sometimes weighed in, along with rarity, to form a "market grade", is also a factor, so there is a bit of a catch-22, isn't there?
I still think if the TPGs broke their final grade into components which better explained the rationale for their opinion, for coins that warrent it (say, if they were valued over $1000 or so) then even if the owners or prospective owners of the coins don't necessarily agree with the TPG opinion, at least they would "have a clue" as to which balance of strike, luster, marks, wear, surface preservation and eye appeal, were used in evaluating the coin and rendering a final grade.
Of course, for these expensive coins, the grading would take longer than 10 or 20 seconds, so therefore this increased labor would result in a more expensive level of submission.
Mark my words: it will happen. the only question is when.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
2) Market grading must go. Grade a coin technically, and if it is a technical MS 64 with lots of eye appeal, let the market determine what it is worth. An astute buyer can tell the difference.
A corollary is that with some weakly struck coins, if the finest one out there (say, a 26 S Nickel) is technically a 63, then the finest known 1926 S Nickel is a 3. Let the market determine what it is worth.
Adrian, I strongly disagree with you re highly graded technical but ugly coins, at least with PCGS coins graded in the last 3 years or so.
If a Liberty Nickel doesn't have lots of eye appeal, PCGS will not holder it as a 6. Ditto re a SLQ. IF an SLQ has darker toning over Miss Liberty's head, I've yet to see one of these coins in a PCGS 6 holder.
I can point to two FH 5 SLQs that are technically nicer than all but one or two FH 6s I've seen.
The area where I will agree with you are regarding dipped out & otherwise dead MS 64-6 Seated & MS 65-6 Trade $s.
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<< <i>It is my opinion that the grading services are under valuing eye appeal. >>
eye-appeal is THE overriding factor in determining whether you like a coin or not, but ironically, it is also the most subjective. there is simply no way "precision" can come into play evaluating "eye-appeal".
this is why again, the fundamental rule of buying coins is "do not buy coins sight-unseen". you must see the coin to determine whether it has eye-appeal - for you. no matter how much many wish it could happen, a grading will never ever be able to certify a coin for it's "eye-appeal"
K S
2. Objectiveness - I've always feared that dealer ABC submitting 10,000 coins a year might be getting slightly better grades than John Doe collector when he submits 10 coins.
Anyone who's seen my collection in person knows what i'm talking about, i think the above formula is a good one in this order; 1. learn how to grade, 2. pick coins with eye appeal and technical merit for the grade according to your own eye. 3. confirm that grade with one of the best 3 3rd party grading services as well as other experienced collectors. If all of that comes together, then buy the coin.
The more people who agree on the grade of a given coin the better, but most important it has to appeal to you because you like the coin in the slab. Les
Todays class was conducted by two NGC graders, and I'll post some of the Q & A later.
For me, part of the process of understanding third-party grading is to understand how different their approach to grading is when compared to a collector or dealer approach. I usually examine a coin at my leisure, looking at it several times, and studying it carefully for marks or problems. I then try to determine an appropriate grade. They on the other hand look at the coin holistically at first glance to snap the coin into a grade based on first impression, or the "look" of the coin. They then look for technical reasons why the coin isn't that grade, and downgrade appropriately. The difference in the two approaches points out clearly the importance of luster. Since most coins have some marks, and usually in the focal area, imagine looking at the coin expecting a few marks, and then deciding immediately how the look of the coin should grade. With three or four graders in the grading room, the coin is passed around, and a consensus reached that the coin looks ok at grade X. Easy as that, and it probably is easier to know the look of each grade based on having seen several thousand submissions every day for the last few years. Coincidentally, knowing the common look of each different year/mintmark for each variety certainly helps.
Today, I looked at a holdered Trime that was whizzed in an NCS holder from the ANA grading set. The coin was almost perfect. The look was PQ to me, and I was not able to tell the coin was whizzed even with a loupe. After an explaination from the grader, it was much easier. The coin had the wrong "look", and on closer examination, the radial flow lines were gone. There were absolutely zero marks, hairlines, surface disturbances visible under a 10x loupe. Truly amazing.
BTW - There was honest disagreement on a few coins, and of course occasionally the lower grade coin is prettier.
Most interesting respones of the day - I asked one of the instructors, "Do you ever ask yourself would I buy this coin in a MS6x holder as part of the process?" Of course he said, one of the common questions is "will this coin look OK in a MS6x holder".
More coins tommorrow.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
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2) Inconsistency--too much variation on the same grade--some seem overgraded and others undergraded, and some just right.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
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roadrunner
"inconsistency" continues to be pushed as a "problem", & frankly i am stunned. think about it, what does "inconsistency" mean? it means: there was a difference of opinion between multiple parties regarding the grade of the coin.
when in the name of Democracy did it become BAD to have a different opinion on something? when did the philosophy of this country change such that, if we don't all think alike, that's a problem?
i'm sorry, but my gut reaction is: GET REAL. why in the world would you expect , or even want the most basic of human functions, ie the determination of what is good for you to be cloned from person to person for all time? are you SERIOUS???
imagine: i have bought easily thousands of coins over the years. the coins i bought in 1995 , i liked for 1 reason or another. i graded em pretty danged well, i liked certain 1's. today, there are plenty of those coins where i ask myself "what were you thinking? it's a piece of crap!", because what i like has chagned. the coins doesn't have the same appeal for me today. i wouldn't grade it as high today
very very sad, to me, to see so many complaints about how horrible grading is because everyone's opinion isn't the same all the time. what makes you think that being robots would make you enjoy coins more?
sorry to be blunt, but if "inconsistency" is such a horrendous issue w/ you, the biggest of your problems, i just don't think you are getting the kind of enjoyment out of the hobby that you could. your shortchanging yourselves. you are not being honest w/ yourself about what you like, you need someone else to TELL you what you like.
that's sad. you'd get a he11uva lot more out of coin collecting if you would learn to enjoy the coins.
if you just GOTTA have more consistency in your life, if your so miserable because gee, not everyone in the coin-collecting community thinks alike - GET OUT OF COINS. you need a new hobby.
K S
1. 100% accuracy regarding authenticity and identifying alterations.
2. An educated, professional OPINION regarding the grade of the coin. I capitalize opinion because there are both technical and subjective aspects (personal opinion regarding eye appeal) to grading. I don't have a problem (and don't consider it market grading) when the services bump up a coin based on outstanding eye appeal since both the ANA and PCGS grading guides include eye appeal as part of the process in determining the grade. Bumping up a grade due to current market demand for a particular type of coin (series, date, etc.) shouldn't be a part of grading.
3. Holdering the coin to provide the best means of enjoying the beauty and details of the coin while protecting in from harmful contaminates in the environment.
Based on my expectations above the major services to a pretty good job (IMHO).
Karl,
I thought when people are referring to "inconsistency" they were talking about one coin grading one way this month and another next month, and/or issues like a lower grade coin looking better than a higher grade coin.
I don't know why it so perplexing that people feel this way. It seems to me that the graders, working for the same company, going by the same standards, should be in the ballpark with each other. Sure differences of opinion are helpful, expected and encouraged, but not when everyone is supposedly equally qualified and employing the same standard. Either the coin has luster or it doesn't. The strike is full or it isn't. There are a finite number of disturbances or not. The coin has problems or not. The eye appeal IS subjective, but, it seems many agree the services shouldn't be in the business of telling us what is appealing and what isn't.
One should be able to expect consistency in employing a company's standard, don't you think?
exceedingly clean maybe even a point higher technically but man, not a coin i would want to bring to a coin-off.
It's this kind of coin that i believe you won't want to own as grading evolves, and it's not a matter of if but when. (And an interesting question arises which is how will it evolve.)
adrian
<< <i>when people are referring to "inconsistency" they were talking about one coin grading one way this month and another next month >>
gilbert, that IS what they are talking about, & that is part of what i think is sad. so, an opinion cannot change from month to month? or even minute to minute??? for a robot, such might be true, but if you or i or any coin collector thought exactly the same thing forever, how would you grow as a collector? why is inconsistency such a horrible thing, when it applies to enjoyment of a hobby, for chrissake? inconsistency, which really means DIVERSITY, is now a dirty word???
i want my car to run consistently. i want the lights in my house to consistently come on when i flip the switch. i want hot water to run hot out of the tap consistentlly, i want the traffic lights in front of my apartment to work consistently, i want the earth to revolve consistently. when those things don't work consistently, then there's something to quibble about.
but i do not expect, nor do i really want the people around me to be consistent every day in every way. if so, the hobby would be extraordinarily BORING. i do not want a community occupied by robots who never change opinions & who can't morph & grow over time.
<< <i>graders, working for the same company, going by the same standards, should be in the ballpark with each other. >>
i really think they are - don't make your ball park so danged small, because you limit how many people can come to it! to me, ms-60 is in the ballpark of ms-63, vf-20 is in the ballpark of vf-30, au-58 is in the ballpark of ms-61
<< <i>Sure differences of opinion are helpful, expected and encouraged, but not when everyone is supposedly equally qualified and employing the same standard. >>
note the word i underlined: STANDARD. standards are open to definition, they should be, they must be, or progress is stunted.
lemme ask you this: suppose you have a coin that your mother gave you from your birth year. you love the coin, absolutely love it. it has nice flash, great luster, & last year pcgs gave it ms-64. you crack it out. ngc grades it ms-63. do you still love the coin? OF COURSE you do! who cares that you got 2 different opinions??? it's the same coin! YOUR OPINION is what matters!!!
<< <i>Either the coin has luster or it doesn't. The strike is full or it isn't. There are a finite number of disturbances or not. The coin has problems or not. >>
ALL of these are subjective!!! the coin has luster? not if it's DMPL, & people LOVE dmpl!!! full strike??? show me a '93 lib-cap w/ a full strike? people LOVE '93 lib-cap's! disturbances? doesn't it matter if all 10 disturbances are right on liberty's cheek, or distributed throughout the reverse in non-invasive areas? gilbert, i just think you will enjoy coins so much more when you stop trying to formula-ize everything. if you like the coin, if you REALLY REALLY LIKE IT, does it really matter that there's a tiny spot in front of the nose, or a tiny rim ding on the back, & that it was graded different by pcgs & ngc? IT DOESN'T MATTER, if you were honest w/ yourself about whether or not you like the coin, the different opinions of other folks JUST DON'T MATTER.
<< <i>One should be able to expect consistency in employing a company's standard, don't you think? >>
NO. 1 should expect an ATTEMPT at following the company's standard, but people just simply are not robots. subjectivity is introducted, but subjectivity is a GOOD thing. it is what makes us human, & it is why humans enjoy hobbies, discussing politics, voting for their representatives, watching football, etc. etc. SUBJECTIVITY IS WHAT MAKES COIN COLLECTING FUN.
until you accept that, you will continue to limit how much enjoyment you get out of the hobby.
if you cracked out every single 1 of the coins you truly like, trust me, you'll still like them. if not, then you were not honest w/ yourself when you 1st claimed that you liked them.
i will sum this all up w/ a single statement: the freedom to have differing opinions about what you collect is exactly what makes collecting it so much fun. getting all worked up about being exactly right & "consistent" all the time obscures your enjoyment. you are missing out on a lot.
K S
<< <i>Here's an example of what i believe to be a coin that has been technically graded correctly but which i wouldn't pay bluesheet for. It was exceedingly clean maybe even a point higher technically but man, not a coin i would want to bring to a coin-off. >>
adrian, blue-sheet & slabs really are not the key roles here. you obeyed the most fundamental rule of coin collecting, do not buy coins sight-unseen. you do not like the coin, so it's grade does not matter. it could be graded vg-8, & as a collector you still wouldn't buy it. (you might buy it as a speculator though)
i think it's ugly as well, & would not buy it. frankly, i literally would not buy it for 10 bucks even knowing i could resale it for much more, because i would consider that being dishonest w/ myself. i just simply will not buy what i do not like.
K S
#2 finger prints on the coins when you get them back
1. What's the point of it, if they can't keep junk out of holders? In that case, we're not much better off than we were 30 years ago. Someone's still trying to drain our discretionary coin funds (at least this time it's not a convicted felon).
2. Is it being used to benefit collectors or dealers, or both about equally - which I could live with.
2, Incompetence !
Bulldog
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i liked all three reasons you gave.
100% agreed that, based on those expectations, the major services do a TERRIFIC job
concise, outstanding answer.
K S
We CANNOT be addressing the same issues. How is whether a coin is fully struck, or if it has luster subjective? But, apparently, we cannot even agree on what is objective and what is subjective in coin grading. But, hey, I respect your opinion.
Anaconda,
What is supposed to be wrong with that seated dollar? Sure, there are some that may display the "proof qualities" within the series in more contrast, but, if that coin is distressing you -- send it my way. Needless to say, I probably can't pay you what you want for it; but, I would be relieving you of that, what is it, an eyesore to you?
Baley
I absolutely NEED that '58 Washington quarter you are displaying.
<< <i>How is whether a coin is fully struck, or if it has luster subjective? >>
(addressed separately)
(luster) peace dollars vs. morgans are an excellent example. totally different luster. satin luster may appeal to some, cartwheel to others. therefore, the influence of the luster MUST have a subjective impact on grading these coins.
(fully struck) what is fully struck? fully struck for the coin w/in it's series? what about bust halves? a fully struck 1815 O-101 bust half is quite flat, very poor in relation to, say, a typical 1819. but it is full struck w/in it's die marriage. so the def'n of "fully struck" must be subjective. maybe to you, fully struck means "in comparison to the maximum possible striking def'n for the type", whereas for me, it may mean "typical for the die marriage w/out relation to any other die marriages".
sorry gilbert, but you are still looking for final, formulized evaluations of these things, it just CANNOT be done. by def'n, something that evolves as a result of human effort MUST be subjective more or less in some way. granted, repetition, automation, machinery, technology, attenuates the influence of subjectivity, but it cannot be eliminated.
this is why i insist that you, as a collector, if you want to get the most enjoyment out of your hobby, you ought to learn to trust yourself, your core judgement, your "guts", when it comes to collecting. again, i say, if you are honest w/ yourself, & you buy the coins that YOU LIKE, you will not go wrong. but if you continue to buy the coins that OTHERS tell you to like, due to some "formula", you will never grow beyond the limits of such formula.
K S