It's time to provide TWO grades for every coin!
MrEureka
Posts: 24,331 ✭✭✭✭✭
Simple proposal:
The first grade is the overall grade, similar to that now given. This grade reflects aspects of surface preservation AND eye appeal.
The second grade is the technical grade, determined by a computer and WITHOUT consideration of subjective eye appeal. (The technical grade should probably not be on a 70 point scale.)
The second grade would be most helpful to online buyers, since images tell you all you need to know about eye appeal and very little about surface preservation.
The first grade is the overall grade, similar to that now given. This grade reflects aspects of surface preservation AND eye appeal.
The second grade is the technical grade, determined by a computer and WITHOUT consideration of subjective eye appeal. (The technical grade should probably not be on a 70 point scale.)
The second grade would be most helpful to online buyers, since images tell you all you need to know about eye appeal and very little about surface preservation.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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Comments
Cameron Kiefer
also, although a computer is impartial, the programmer that programs it is not. computer grading does not remove sujectivity.
K S
expose coin to multitude of lights to determine luster in whatever units luster is measured in.
superimpose all varieties of graded coin to look for match.
scan it for hairlines
how would one program such a device?
It's necessary if you are buying based on a scan. Think of all the times you would like to bid on a coin on eBay, but you can't trust the scan to see hairlines, light friction, etc. An objective technical analysis of the surface preservation would solve your problem.
The subjective overall grade (subjective due to the inclusion of eye appeal) would of course always be subjective.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>It's necessary if you are buying based on a scan. Think of all the times you would like to bid on a coin on eBay, but you can't trust the scan to see hairlines, light friction, etc. An objective technical analysis of the surface preservation would solve your problem. >>
this violates the MOST fundamental rule of buying coins: DO NOT BUY COINS SIGHT-UNSEEN. violate that rule, and ALL best are off!
K S
Didn't PCGS use a computer for grading about 10 yrs ago. I understand that it did not work out for whatever reasons. What, or how could it be different this time?
How would pricing work?
The computer generated grade would be IN ADDITION TO the human generated grade. For example, you might see a human-graded MS67 with a computer-generated technical grade of 92.35.
I don't know what exactly happened when PCGS experimented with this, but I'd guess that the problems had to do with the difficulties of trying to get the computer to make subjective grading decisions.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
it's the really expensive coins that need a more precise grading opinion. whether they're expensive because they're rare in any grade, or in super high grade, or both, the very high end coins require more description, and depending on the coin, this might be breaking the grade down into subgrades for strike, luster, marks, toning, overall eye appeal, whatever.
I believe it DOES matter if your 1881-cc Morgan is MS66.3 or MS66.8, and would like professional evaluation opinion of the strike, luster, and marks broken out of the whole grade.
but EVERY coin? no, not necessary, IMO
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Jeeeeeze....
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
K S
And it doesn't mean your stuck with a bad grade if a mistake was made on the original grading either, since you can still send it in for grade review still in the slab. Now human graders review the coin and if the grade does need to be changed it get updated in the computer so that the computer knows that that digital fingerprint is now a 65 coin (In case someone cracks it out and sends it in again.) and the pops get adjusted accordingly, 64 down one and 65 up one, since the service has the label from the old slab.
<< <i>Simple proposal:
The first grade is the overall grade, similar to that now given. This grade reflects aspects of surface preservation AND eye appeal.
The second grade is the technical grade, determined by a computer and WITHOUT consideration of subjective eye appeal. (The technical grade should probably not be on a 70 point scale.)
The second grade would be most helpful to online buyers, since images tell you all you need to know about eye appeal and very little about surface preservation. >>
...........determined by a computer? who programs the computer?
Interesting idea.
adrian
Your idea has a lot a validity IMO. Very few services, if any give a strictly technical grade, it's a combination of technical grade and eye appeal, thus arriving at a concensus "market grade", which is widely accepted today. Your suggestion is relative to basically "sight un-seen" coins offered via internet even though they may be imaged. Many, if not most, coins offered on the internet are impossible to adequately assess from a technical standpoint. With trades of this type, in particular, a technical grade, whether it be based on decimal or the Sheldon scale, would be a valuable tool by which to base a decision. Computerized grading has actually been discussed since at least the early eighties and is very viable IMO. This method is and would be extremely complex and painstaking with many variables to factor in, but would certainly be doable.
There is a lot more I would like to say on this subject, but I have just heard the President speak and the war has begun. Somehow coins don't seem so important right now. I'll hope to say more at a later time. May God watch over all.
this fingerprinting is of course done w/ certified diamonds, but grading of those is a far more technical process, as color can be measured w/ a spectrometer, inclusions physically measured, etc etc. there's no reason a diamond's "grade" would change over time, but such is not the case w/ coins. the blast white bust half i popped in my w-r holder may well tone stunningly over time, in which case today's grade may well be drastically wrong 30 years from now.
K S
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Everyone says they want consistancy, and they want more accurate pops and digital fingerprinting would provide both. The technology exists. And it is NOT coming soon to a TPG near you.
Frankly, even if they had it I still wouldn't buy slabs.
$350 MILLION dollars *poof*, vanished. did we really get what we paid for?
K S
One of the challenges of the current grading practice is that the grade given is really a compromise between the technical grade and the market value. Where the "honey spot" lies [that's for you, Bear
This approach would not put an end to the breakout game, which would drastically decrease revenue for the TPGs, so it would at least be neutral in that regard ... or even offered for a small premium with technical being the default (which would encourage further "crossovers" even of same-company product). It would also have an added bonus for the less experienced collectors. Let's face it, collectors who can count themselves among the übergraders from having handled tens of thousands of coins over the years have no real need for third-party grading. Collectors in general, though, range the entire spectrum of experience. It's challenging enough for newbies to master technical grading, especially in the MS range, but market grading is another world altogether and one with no real "published standards." Having both grades on a slab gives the collector with intermediate grading skills a reference point for beginning to learn how to judge between technical and market factors.
As for computer grading, well, it was tried once and failed miserably. However, computer technology has advanced considerably since then and it might now be possible to develop a successful software package. Nevertheless, I doubt you could hope to do more than to assess a technical grade because there are too many subjective variables for capturing the "eye appeal" factors that are reflected in market grades. Technical registration would be good for capturing the basic coin, though, and for the purposes Conder states, as well as for insurance purposes. There's a lot to be said for having accurate pop reports and there's no way to maintain accurate reports for a single TPG's output, much less between them. Since there's far less to disagree on with respect to technical grading, the reports could become much more useful ... and valuable.
Come on over ... to The Dark Side!
Without the global fingerprinting concept the supplemental technical grade idea faces a steep uphill battle to make it especially if NOT on the same 70 point scale. Jeeeeeze............it took me long enough to get used to this 70 point scale! They only have 60 in the olympics!!!
I believe all the grading services are already using your two-grade system. When I submit, they give me your second grade, the computer grade - the absolute minimum grade anyone would expect to see on that particular coin. After I sell, the dealer gets the coin upgraded to the max to pass it along to the next, and probably final, buyer. I really don't know how dealers without actual brick and mortar stores could stay in business without this system!!