I've been shilled (update)

TWQG · March 16, 2003 3:35AM

..what would you do?

ksteelheader · March 16, 2003 3:37AM

Do you have any more info, such as an auction link?...Thanks, Ken
..................

TWQG · March 16, 2003 3:40AM

It will have to be a hypothetical question for now.

relayer · March 16, 2003 3:48AM

Hypothetically, I wouldn't do anything, other than post it here.

Rampage · March 16, 2003 3:52AM

Are you sure you have been shilled? If you are THAT positive (and be sure you are RIGHT), then you may want to confront the seller to see what he/she wants to do about it.

If the seller claims no wrong doing, then take it to eBay and have the seller NARUed.

But, you may be able to work out a sweet deal with the seller, so I would go that route first.

Rampage!

AtcBob · March 16, 2003 3:55AM

What does the term "Shilled" mean when referring to transactions on EBay???

DCAMFranklin · March 16, 2003 4:00AM

I would never make any accusations of shilling, unless I had a long record of irrefutable evidence of past shilling.

I bet I have seen several hundred accusations of shilling made on these Forums.

Yet, I think I have only seen 10 or 11 cases where the accusation was warranted.

In fact, on numerous occasions, I have known either or both of the parties being accused of shilling. In every instance where I knew the bidder/seller they are highly honorable men that would never be involved in such crap.

I hope you will do some REAL homework before you try to lay any blame or make any accusations.

smprfi · March 16, 2003 4:02AM

<< <i>What does the term "Shilled" mean when referring to transactions on EBay???

>>

When a seller has other accounts and use them to run a bid up on his own auctions.

TWQG · March 16, 2003 4:02AM

I've done my homework, now I'm hoping you do yours. All you need is right there. Please tell me I'm wrong.

itsnotjustme · March 16, 2003 4:02AM

I'm confused why you don't want to post a link. If you feel you've been shilled, show us. We can

1) agree or disagree with you
2) avoid the seller
3) learn we may also have been shilled by the same seller

itsnotjustme · March 16, 2003 4:07AM

Here... I've done some of someone else's homework. Here's the list of auctions sandiegocoin has bid on recently.

I did a quick scan and saw no obvious sign of shill bidding. I did not go follow the feedback of each bidder to be sure.

Bids

TWQG · March 16, 2003 4:09AM

loyal customer?

Rampage · March 16, 2003 4:14AM

Sean.

I agree with Brian.

I have had MANY repeat customers on my auctions. One guy bid on and won 15 or 16 auctions from me in the same week.

I think you better reconsider. You also need to consider this:::

There was still another bidder after the so-called shiller.

Anyway.......that's that way the mop flops.

Rampage!

relayer · March 16, 2003 4:14AM

Until dorkkarl pops in to say You got hosed it will have to remain hypothetical.

itsnotjustme · March 16, 2003 4:18AM

emom-nc has bought from multiple sellers, and is also a seller. I have also bid on loads of one sellers auctions hoping to capitalize on reduced shipping charges.

TWQG · March 16, 2003 4:19AM

emom-nc has only bid one seller's auctions for coins in the last 30 days.
both from NC
quack, quack

DCAMFranklin · March 16, 2003 4:25AM

Cameron Kiefer seemed to like the seller. Here is his transaction:

LINK

Morris has done business with the seller as well.

Another case of accusations made with no evidence.

TWQG · March 16, 2003 4:30AM

I'm sure the seller is a great guy and the preponderance of evidence is a collection of coincidences.

emom-buyer and seller of clothing becomes expert in circulation strike type collecting overnight. Never buying a coin on ebay in the last 75 days mind you.

just atypical collecting patterns?

rd5425 · March 16, 2003 4:44AM

Definately a shill bidder, if you look at the last thing they sold is says the sellers location is from willmington, nc the same place the seller of the other auctions is from, obviously its a shill bidder.
Here is the link where you can report these kinds of things to ebay.

Link

DCAMFranklin · March 16, 2003 4:49AM

Hey, everyone. Don't have repeat customers, or you are a shiller.

If you have bidders from your same state, then you are a shiller.

If you provide good coins and service, therefore a customer begins to take up the hobby of coin collecting, then you are a shiller.

If you let someone buy their first coin purchased on Ebay from you, then you are a shiller.

C'mon!!

I think Members would rather things remain credible here. Significantly more evidence is required to make accusations of shill bidding. Brian, Itnotjustme, has provided a LONG, SOLID history of snooping out shill bidders. His past performance is significant. If he is not finding any credible evidence, then you should consider withdrawing your accusations.

I've looked at both parties bidding/selling practices and both parties' feedback history. I suggest you do the same.

roadrunner · March 16, 2003 4:51AM

How do you feel about sellers who threaten to post negative FB on you if you dare to post something negative on the transaction. I have one guy who sent me an e-mail stating that he will post my name, address, etc on the feeback (and why I am a creep) if I DARE post any neg feedback. Even though I have yet to post anything.
All I said was that I wanted to return an overgraded coin that overhyped. Isn't this extortion? And wrong? If this is what sleazebay is all about then I guess it's not for me.

roadrunner

dwood · March 16, 2003 4:53AM

roadrunner,
You should report that. eBay would immediately remove any personal information about you if it were posted, but most probably, based on the email alone, would NARU the seller and you wouldn't have to worry about it anyway.

DCAMFranklin · March 16, 2003 4:55AM

And don't forget. If someone from your own town buys 3 coins from you and finds them to be of good quality and fair price, then returns to buy many more coins, then you are a shiller.

Please don't forget, that a lot of sellers on Ebay are not charging the required sales tax. In addition, the buyer would not have to pay for postage & insurance charges. The buyer can just drive across town, pay for the coins and take them home. That is a significant savings.

Sunnywood · March 16, 2003 5:01AM

OK, I know I will get flamed for this, but ....

Presumably, shill or no shill, you didn't bid any more than the maximum you were willing to pay for the coin. If that is true, then I can't imagine what your complaint would be, as long as you won the coin at a price you were willing to pay for it. If you allowed the shill bidding to push you into price territory where you would otherwise have been unwilling to go, then it's your fault for bidding that high !!! Otherwise, what difference does it make???

Sunnywood

TWQG · March 16, 2003 5:03AM

It makes no difference to my one win from this guy. But it's guys like this unsuspecting that I worry about.

Rampage · March 16, 2003 5:04AM

Just because someone sells clothing, does that mean they cannot buy coins?? That is a crazy assumption.

As for me....aside from buying and selling what little bit of extra coins I have, I also buy a few trading cards on eBay (though not too often). I have also bought a set of painted portraits of the Presidents of the United States. Not just that, but I also buy other non-collectible stuff.

au58 · March 16, 2003 5:05AM

Sunnywood makes a very astute point. Are you suffering from buyer's remorse? Did you pay too much? If so, why?

dwood · March 16, 2003 5:07AM

I'd hardly call that guy a newbie. He's bought from almost every seller on this board, as well as several of eBay's "big boys." I'm sure he's well aware of the dangers below the surface.

au58 · March 16, 2003 5:12AM

In the example link, the "UNSUSPECTING" high bidder has placed four bids since the "SHILL" placed the alleged shill bid. The current high bidder has had ample opportunity to make an informed choice. Maybe he is really stupid, but on the other hand, maybe he really wants the coin at the current high bid.

ms71 · March 16, 2003 5:17AM

"Repeat customer" my a**. Take a close look at this operation. I looked at the link in this thread, and noticed how many times "emom-nc" is the high bidder on "gotnoys" items. Others have noticed that "gotnoys" location was Wilmington, NC, same as "emom-nc". So . . . . . . .I searched on items currently for sale by seller "gotnoys". The first thing I noticed was that he has now changed his location to "The South" I picked ten items in a row, and "emom-nc" had bid on every one! Now there's a coincidence! "emom-nc" was second-high on most, high on some. I quit after 10 items.
Take A Look at a Few Items

itsnotjustme · March 16, 2003 5:18AM

I just bid on one of gotnoys' coins. emom-nc had also bid, but well below the market value.

DoctorOfTone · March 16, 2003 5:21AM

It does not matter if he was willing to pay more for the item, if a shill bidder (which could be the seller or a friend or relative) did in fact bid up the price in order for the seller to reap excess profits or so he could keep the coin, then it is one of most serious offenses one can commit and Ebay will boot the guilty party (s) faster than you can shake a stick. I personally have caught two sellers shilling and I was amazed at how fast Ebay booted them, it was a matter of 2- 3 hours after I sent the email. The downside is that one of the sellers was back on under a different name in 2 weeks.

the Doc

ms71 · March 16, 2003 5:28AM

This is a classic bunko operation, I'm only surprised they have been so blatant about it.

TWQG · March 16, 2003 5:31AM

<< <i>you didn't bid any more than the maximum you were willing to pay for the coin. If that is true, then I can't imagine what your complaint would be >>

I'm only willing to pay one bid increment above the next legitimate underbidder. quack, quack

your statement demonstrates a profound misunderstanding of auctions.

DCAMFranklin · March 16, 2003 5:44AM

OK, all you boys stand back. Everything's gonna be just fine. The Ebay Police are here now. You fellas over there, start us a fire. We's gonna burn us a witch today!!

dwood · March 16, 2003 5:49AM

Oooh! Ooooh!!!

BLOOD in the water!!!!!

A witch! A witch! We found a witch!

May we burn her?

Sunnywood · March 16, 2003 6:01AM

TWQG,

As someone who has bought and sold well into seven figures at auction, I can assure you that I do not have a profound misunderstanding of the auction process !!! In fact, if I were legally able to tell you all the horror stories I know about some of the things that have REALLY gone on in some auctions, it would make your head spin !!! But the auction process, despite its pitfalls, can be a great source of material for buyers, and a convenient venue for the disposition of material by sellers. It is still my favorite experience on the buying side.

Harry Bass was always worried about being bid up by shills on the floor, so he hired an agent (many times it was Julian Leidman) to bid for him. They would sit severla rows apart, but Harry would signal Julian when to stop bidding, by various pre-agreed & subtle movements. The worst thing is when the auction house itself, or one of its principals - perhaps even the guy calling the auction, is the consignor ... and they bid up a collector who is bidding on the floor, using their experience to read the collector and determine how far they can push him/her. I have seen it happen, where I knew that the lots in question were in fact property of one of the owners of the major auction house. However, in an impersonal, sight-unseen arm's length venue such as Ebay, the situation is different.

Further, the idea that you are willing to pay one increment above any other legitimate bidder is understandable, but imperfect. You should be able to formulate your own opinion of market value. If you cannot, you have no business bidding. A particular lot may shoot well past its "market value" if there are two or more competitive collectors after it, or it may languish for less than its "market value." There are professionals who do nothing but buy coins at auctions, picking only those lots where they see inactivity in the bidding, and a less-than-market hammer. They the resell these coins to wholesalers, who resell them to dealers, who resell them to collectors. So you see, there can be quite a bit of room. Truth is, not everyone in the numismatic world bids on every auction. So there are plenty of "legitimate bidders" who stay home. (If there weren't, many coin dealers & wholesalers would go out of business.) Therefore, a collector should be guided by what he is willing to pay (regardless of what others bid).

Anyway, that's MY two cents. (1872 2c PCGS MS66 RED, to be exact).

Sunnywood

TWQG · March 16, 2003 6:06AM

Sunnywood, well said. I will certainly defer to your expertise. First, I paid for the cent what I thought it was worth. Second, am I to understand your point to be that shilling is just a necessary part of the game and that I should get used to it?

relayer · March 16, 2003 6:35AM

Very interesting insight Sunnywood, thanks.

But back to the real world on the bay...

emom bid for the price she'd be willing to pay, and the screen kept saying DENINED You are NOT A WINNER, LOSER. Not wanting to hear that, she tried again and again until she finally realized she'd been bested.

I'm looking at one of the sellers other auctions ending today. It's currently owned by a (0) buyer. My snipe will have to be set accordingly or I could wind up paying stupid money.

TommyB · March 16, 2003 6:46AM

A better lynch mob I think I have never seen! unbelievable.

Sunnywood · March 16, 2003 6:56AM

<<< should I get used to it >>>

OK, first, let me say that I didn't mean to imply that the shilling isn't a bad thing ... it IS a bad thing, and the offenders should definitely be taken to task for it. Is shilling a "necessary part of the game" ?? Well, I hope not, and it certainly doesn't always occur !! However, it certainly can occur, and being an educated buyer is the best defense.

(1) Know what you are bidding on.
(2) Know what your return privileges are/aren't
(3) Know the value of what you are bidding on, both to the marketplace, and to you personally
(4) Try to establish a maximum amount that you are willing to pay before you start bidding
(5) Try not to get caught up in the emotional heat of the auction process
(6) Always assume that the deck is stacked against you.

As far as the last point, remember, there may be shills, a high reserve, the auction house may be in league with the consignor, or they may BE the consignor, and they may bid on their own behalf.

On Ebay, things are different. The goods may not be as described. Always ask if the picture shown is of the ACTUAL coin that you would be getting; there may be shill bidders; there may be fraudulent sellers who do not even own a coin to sell you. Never bid if the seller has a "0" and sunglasses next to their ID !!! To avoid sniping, put in your true maximum, and don't worry if you gt sniped, or if the snipers are shills, etc. That seems to be part of the game on Ebay, UNFORTUNATELY.

And, finally, remember the best piece of advice I ever heard about buying coins: "THERE ARE ALWAYS MORE COINS"

That's right, even that coin you thought was unique, finest known, etc ... wait, and either it shows up again, or another one comes along. This is true even of 1804 dollars (there have been three at auction in just the last 5 years). Wait, and another opportunity will come to you. Be patient, you don't have to complete your collection with the first coins that happen to come along.

Anyway, just some of my experience. (And no, I don't think I have all the answers either, and I am always willing to learn from the experiences of all the other Board members too !!!)

Sunnywood

Russ · March 17, 2003 4:18AM

ms71,

Excellent detective work. The fact that the seller suddenly changed the location listed makes this one look very suspicious.

Russ, NCNE

DCAMFranklin · March 17, 2003 4:43AM

Did any one notice the seller is selling Registry Set, extremely high quality coins?

LINK

au58 · March 17, 2003 5:57AM

Collusion is just as bad and maybe even more pervasive as shill bidding.
Collusion occurs when two or more parties conspire to affect the hammer price (could be up or down).
Collusion is illegal in nearly every state. Still, many professional dealers (coins, antiques, rugs, etc.) practice collusion.
The only real protection against shill bidding and collusion is knowledge - knowledge of what you are buying and knowledge of its true market value.
If you have this knowledge and bid accordingly, shills and collusion will have minimal impact.
For info, if a board member agrees not to bid on a coin because another board member asks him to not bid, collusion has occurred.

satootoko · March 17, 2003 10:58AM

What am I missing here?

The supposed "shill" placed a bid of $161 and was immediately outbid by someone who had placed a higher maximum bid five days earlier, and had survived several subsequent bidders who didn't value the coin as high as he/she did.

Then the "shill" tried again, and made it to the top of the heap, only to be outbid again - twice!

If that was shill bidding, it was the most inept job I've seen in the 45 years or so I've been an auction buyer.!

TWQG · March 17, 2003 11:14AM

emom-nc

1. search 30 day bidder history
2. look at all bids date and time of each of seller's auctions

Collusion comes in many forms and winning the auction is not always the goal. Have you heard of fee avoidance?

TWQG · March 19, 2003 11:09AM

Just more facts.

Now Gotnoys is selling everything that emom-nc recently "won" in this little ponsey scheme.

mr1931S · March 19, 2003 12:36PM

No disrespect intended but it really puzzles me why people get so upset about ebay shills...so what if there are shills at work on some ebay auctions...simply establish with yourself a maximum price that you are willing to pay for an item and then try to SNIPE IT...

Shills are powerless against snipe bidders...I'm amazed why there aren't more coin auction snipers...you can let vrane.com do the dirty work for you...and its free...even if you don't win the item with your snipe you haven't really lost because you have simply made the highest bid you are willing to make in the closing seconds of the auction...

dbldie55 · March 19, 2003 1:05PM

people want to pay less than the seller wants to sell it for. It is human nature.

dlshaw · March 20, 2003 9:12AM

Actually I can't see bidding more than once on a item.(bid once, bid your high) If you do you just run the price up yourself.
Snipe is the only way and you only need 1 bid

supracoin · March 20, 2003 9:15AM

i would just leave this situation alone. even if someone did shill, you arent gonna gain anything by acting crazy about the entire situation. you werent meant to win the item either way. next....

I've been shilled (update)

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