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re:censorship - the value of dissenting opinion.
DHeath
Posts: 8,472 ✭✭✭
The PCGS board draws lots of attention from new collectors. The first time they buy a slabbed coin or follow an ebay link, they visit and lurk. Most of them have little ability to judge the merit of what they read, because they have no point of reference beyond ad copy, site content, and puffery.
One of the reasons I have been such a supporter of the forum is its incredible balance and diversity. Dissenting opinion here makes this board feel as though it is grounded in reality, and makes everyone who visits feel as though PCGS is strong enough to withstand criticism from even its most vocal critics.
Without dissenting points of view on a forum, it is just another advertising medium. While that may be temporarily good for the host, it is ultimately bad for the collector, and makes the positive comments regarding PCGS on these boards seem far less credible. Discernment isn't learned in an environment void of disagreement. Without a counter-point, what value is a point.
Mr.Hall, you have recently implemented many of the changes collectors have been lobbying for for some time (I was delighted), and I feel certain you are still a collector at heart yourself. I'm also sure as company president, every time you see an unflattering post concerning PCGS, you feel as if someone were stabbing your baby in the forehead. Putting that emotion aside for a moment, and remembering what is was like to be a collector, I'm certain were you outside the company looking in, you would feel PCGS didn't require such a defense, and in fact such actions lend credibility to the critical voices.
I found this forum some time ago, and adopted it as a favorite place to discuss coins and visit friends. Over a period of time, I learned the personalities and biases of many of the posters. It became a familiar meeting place. Lately, these forums have attracted the attention of a good many dealers, and their interaction with members is a positive for both. Censoring attacks, threats, blatant misinformation, or competitors threads all make good sense, and in my opinion the boards would be improved by these actions. They are probably not frequent enough. Removing posters who vocalize criticism of PCGS on the other hand just diminishes the quality of discussion.
As for the incident involving Greg, I'll admit some confusion. I read the entire post before it was pulled, and it appeared to me that Greg was not the one who imported the offending thread, yet was the one singled out. Although no one is allowed to say anything without acknowledging and accepting the consequences of their actions, it sure feels as though the conversation regarding collector issues here will be monitored to assure a positive PCGS bias. That just doesn't feel as honest. JMO
One of the reasons I have been such a supporter of the forum is its incredible balance and diversity. Dissenting opinion here makes this board feel as though it is grounded in reality, and makes everyone who visits feel as though PCGS is strong enough to withstand criticism from even its most vocal critics.
Without dissenting points of view on a forum, it is just another advertising medium. While that may be temporarily good for the host, it is ultimately bad for the collector, and makes the positive comments regarding PCGS on these boards seem far less credible. Discernment isn't learned in an environment void of disagreement. Without a counter-point, what value is a point.
Mr.Hall, you have recently implemented many of the changes collectors have been lobbying for for some time (I was delighted), and I feel certain you are still a collector at heart yourself. I'm also sure as company president, every time you see an unflattering post concerning PCGS, you feel as if someone were stabbing your baby in the forehead. Putting that emotion aside for a moment, and remembering what is was like to be a collector, I'm certain were you outside the company looking in, you would feel PCGS didn't require such a defense, and in fact such actions lend credibility to the critical voices.
I found this forum some time ago, and adopted it as a favorite place to discuss coins and visit friends. Over a period of time, I learned the personalities and biases of many of the posters. It became a familiar meeting place. Lately, these forums have attracted the attention of a good many dealers, and their interaction with members is a positive for both. Censoring attacks, threats, blatant misinformation, or competitors threads all make good sense, and in my opinion the boards would be improved by these actions. They are probably not frequent enough. Removing posters who vocalize criticism of PCGS on the other hand just diminishes the quality of discussion.
As for the incident involving Greg, I'll admit some confusion. I read the entire post before it was pulled, and it appeared to me that Greg was not the one who imported the offending thread, yet was the one singled out. Although no one is allowed to say anything without acknowledging and accepting the consequences of their actions, it sure feels as though the conversation regarding collector issues here will be monitored to assure a positive PCGS bias. That just doesn't feel as honest. JMO
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
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Brian
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I too think that what is said here will be more credible if both sides are presented. Cheerleading sites will get old pretty fast, and they are detrimental to the hobby in the long run. A cheerleading site would also be of far less use to PCGS too in the long run.
<< <i>Very nicely stated, but I am not sure it will make a difference, but elloquence of this calibre is healthy. Brian >>
It's winning arguments, like those set forth in this Thread by DHeath that give Greg the best shot at being reinstated.
Balanced with an acknowledgement there are two sides to the issue.
peacockcoins
Maybe if this was looked at and addressed the temperature here would cool down and such drastic measures would not have had to happen I'd rather see David Hall working on other things at PCGS rather than replying on these boards, I am quite sure they have other very capable folks. Just a thought.
I have posted such suggestions to the board at large so that it can be seen.
Extremely well said and difficult to take exception to except for a single point:
HRH stated that some of the attacks were bereft of fact, logic, and sincerity. I
never followed these attacks or those who engaged in them, but to the degree
this statement is correct, then I have to agree that deletion is the proper answer.
And certainly continued behaviour of this sort should result in banishment.
I would also add that if you look back you will see virtually all incidences of unfair criticisms of PCGS being addressed by... other board members. That makes a powerful positive statement to others reading through the posts. As a company I'd take customers defending me any day rather than stifling the criticism in the first place.
And the criticism that isn't defended by other board members... well, it's not defended for a reason. And thus is of great value too. If you choose to listen to it.
It is not a pleasent experience and one many people will try to avoid. Non defense does not always
mean the company is wrong and defense does not always mean a person is in the right.
Camelot
It was I who imported that thread. I felt that Salzberg's comments would be of broad interest to collectors, and it never occured to me that PCGS would strongly object to the point of deleting that thread.
I am not convinced, however, that that thread was the cause of Greg's banishment. If it were the case, then I should also have been banished. After all, Greg made posted his question elsewhere than here. It was I who brought it over here.
I still don't fully understand the logic to banning Greg. It should be fairly obvious to all who really know me that Greg probably likes PCGS far more than I.
This whole affair reminds me of a lampoon on the Carol Burnett Show, called "As The Stomach Turns". Who remembers the ATST skits?
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
take the heat and flames. For many it is more important to be popular, then state
an opposing opinion.
Camelot
So, my point being, if you have a board where people are defending you -- on their own -- against unreasonable criticism, what are you scared of? Reasonable criticism? Hmm...
It's fairly obvious to me, and I don't really know you or Greg
I prefer PCGs slabbed coins, they hold the most value, I love all the designations, I love the registry, I really dig HepDaddyHall, the cat loves Vocal Group Harmony! I have never been afraid of flames or good humor towards me or kool aid comments. Bring em on! In fact, whenever there is a Flame the Franklin half tirade, I think I have been the only Frankie collector to defend these wonderful half dollars...
That said, if I have a disagreement with them and I feel that I have to post it here and they ban me for it, so be it. This forum to me is still fun..... I am happy to be here and I am very happy about all the HepCats and Kittens that I have made friends with in this forum....
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>every time you see an unflattering post concerning PCGS, you feel as if someone were stabbing your baby in the forehead >>
i just don't think i agree w/ your stance. my observation is that mr. hall is extraordinarily tolerant of negativity bandied about on this forum.
ONLY TWO members have allegedly been booted. that's a miniscule % of the number of members here, say for example 0.1%, if there are just a thousand members, yet the % of threads w/ something negative to say about pcgs vs. the % w/ something postive is far, far higher. i'd say the odds of getting booted are slim indeed.
just post to the forum like you normally would - & GET OVER it. if they (pcgs) decide to start booting members left & right, there's really not a danged thing you can do about it.
& besides, would it really, really matter THAT much if YOU got booted? i think not, life would somehow still go on, & time not spent posting & reading on this forum could be time spent reading any of a tremendous number of terrific coin books out there.
K S
Ahhh... Always the contrarian poster...
I don't think "alleged" is necessary. Dakra and Greg have definately been banned. Moreover, is it ok that even a single member gets booted unjustly? Remember: justice for none if not justice for all.
I'm not asserting the injustice of CU's action to ban the two (well, actually, I do think it's wrong to ban them). Rather, I am saying that *if* the banishment were unjust, then it would be right for folks to rise in defence of those victimized by the injustice. Even if there were ONLY TWO victims.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>ONLY TWO members have allegedly been booted...I don't think "alleged" is necessary. >>
hey evillageprowler, what i meant by "alleged" was in reference to the number "2". i realize that it is factual that dakra & greg were booted. i have no way to confirm the number of booted members, which is allegedly "2".
<< <i>Remember: justice for none if not justice for all. >>
that's fine & dandy as a United States citizen operating under federal or state law, but on this forum, you are operating under the auspices of a private entity, & their rules prevail. justice is not an issue, not in the common context.
what's been poorly handled, imo, is no reason was really given for revocation of the accounts, ie examples of what was posted, so the rest of us know what was offensive enough to cross the line. i don't think most wousl accuse me of being particularly supportive of pcgs, yet i'm not booted. so what gives? i think there's much more going on here than meets the eye. focusing on what's "justice" or not just isn't relevant for me, & clouds the issue.
K S
<< <i>what's been poorly handled, imo, is no reason was really given for revocation of the accounts >>
In Dakra's case the reason was obvious to anybody paying attention. He posted an entire series of "announcement" threads mocking David Hall. This was not "dissenting" opinion, it was blatant trolling, pure and simple. I like Dakra, but the fact is he brought the banning upon himself.
In the case of Greg, I think PCGS blew it. As I said when this first came down, once you got past his "shoot from the hip, mow everybody down approach" there was temendous substance and value in what he had to say. He is possessed of extensive experience and a strong institutional memory that is needed around here.
Russ, NCNE
and beyond at times. As for PCGS they could have handled things better by instructing us all
that the rules would be enforced, giving Greg a final warning and then move on. If the rules are
violated then action could have been taken correctly. At this point, so much poisen has been dropped in
the well by so many people, I do not see how anything is possible to be changed. We must get over this
as best we can and move on with our lives and our hobby.
Camelot
<< <i>In Dakra's case the reason was obvious to anybody paying attention. He posted an entire series of "announcement" threads mocking David Hall. >>
i admit to not paying attention, in fact, i never saw such a thread(s). sounds like i missed out. sounds to me like it was something personal though, & i agree that personal attacks should not be excusable on the forum. but i don't know how scathing the mockery was.
K S
It's what I thought at the time, and since the old threads were brought back to the top, I thought it might be helpful.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>TTT
It's what I thought at the time, and since the old threads were brought back to the top, I thought it might be helpful. >>
This threads does put things in better perspective than the other.
<< <i>In the case of Greg, I think PCGS blew it. >>
There is no doubt that Greg could have been more diplomatic in his letter to Mr. Hall, however the response to him should have also been diplomatic.
His banishment for speaking his mind was not representative of a good defense from PCGS. If my only reply to a long winded dissertation about my faults is to lock you out from further comments its probably because I have little defense or argument to what it is your saying.
Greg was an ardent supporter of PCGS, he was frustrated by continuing issues with the company, issues that were not being addressed. When it is apparent that people aren't hearing you, its only natural to either shut up and move on, or speak louder. He spoke louder.
Greg saw changes in PCGS, and the issues he raised were not ones of a positive image for the company. Instead of working towards resolution or addressing those concerns it was far easier to just shut the door on him. And PCGS did.
<< <i>He is possessed of extensive experience and a strong institutional memory that is needed around here. >>
Greg could no doubt have served the company well had it taken the time to actually listen to him and address his complaints / concerns.
The CEO of a company often sees only the bottom line and may otherwise be blind. Usually its the consumer of the services who sees better. That thread should not have been removed. Old issues don't go away by denying they existed in the first place.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
The Communists hanged Clement a couple of years later and – to remove him from public consciousness – airbrushed him out of all the propaganda pictures. But they forgot about the hat. "All that remains of Clementis is the cap on Gottwald's head."
<< <i>
<< <i>what's been poorly handled, imo, is no reason was really given for revocation of the accounts >>
In Dakra's case the reason was obvious to anybody paying attention. He posted an entire series of "announcement" threads mocking David Hall. This was not "dissenting" opinion, it was blatant trolling, pure and simple. I like Dakra, but the fact is he brought the banning upon himself.
In the case of Greg, I think PCGS blew it. As I said when this first came down, once you got past his "shoot from the hip, mow everybody down approach" there was temendous substance and value in what he had to say. He is possessed of extensive experience and a strong institutional memory that is needed around here.
Russ, NCNE >>
Cool. Just now getting around to making his acquaintance, and I wondered how he was thought of. Seems most people who were currently posting to the other thread before it got pulled earlier today, after residing for three years, had similar opinions about his contributions here.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Shoot, I never get to see Oprah, Dr Phil or Jerry Springer, either.
Maybe this one will end up on Judge Judy.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5