Recommended grade for Indian Cents

tjkillian

I want to complete a nice collection of Indian Cents. My first attempt was complete except for the 1877. Now I want to get it slabbed and completed. I took the whole collection to the Long Beach show to have it submitted. I had Coinguy1 (Mark Feld) look at them to eliminate the bodybags. He eliminated 15 coins for various reasons. My 1869 was on an XF-40 and my 1868 was called cleaned so I replaced them at the coin show in MS-64R/B for both. Most of my other ones will fall in the AU-58-MS-64 range with only a couple eeking out a R/B or RED. What grade should I try for to make a nice set? MS-64R/B? Try for mostly brown and the occasional R/B? A mix of RED, R/B, & Brown? MS-63? MS-65? Only a few choice examples and lower ones for the better dates? A perfectly matched set?

Tom

wingedliberty

I usually try to stay consistent as far as grade within a given series, but really, which ever makes you the most happy. Establish a budget you can afford and go with it.

Brian.

Lakesammman

Well, your the only one that can answer that. Depends on what you like and what you can afford. The RB coins in 64/65 are a great deal and can be beautiful. Includes some great toned coins. Some people prefer a similar grade - others don't really care. So, it's up to you.

I find the varieties alot of fun. They can be purchased for not much more than regular coins. I like them because they cause me to pause and think about how they occured. That leads to alot of reading and thinking. It keeps the hobby interesting between purchases. If you haven't already purchased it, consider the Steve/Flynn book on varieties or the Snow attribution guides.

lordmarcovan

The only time I completed the set (minus overdates), my minimum was full-rim G4 (though I used an AG/G for the 1877). That was during the poverty-stricken days of my first marriage, when keeping the electricity and telephone and mortgage paid was difficult. Filling that Dansco album with G-AU coins was a real sense of accomplishment for me back then, as Indians were the first set I ever completed of anything, and finishing what I started took sacrifice and patience. I found them pleasing even in the circulated grades. Some coin types look nasty in low grade, but I think the Indian cents, particularly the copper-nickels, still have eye appeal even in G4. It might be fun to go for a full-Liberty F12+ set. Of course, if you're talkin' Registry sets, that's a whole different ballgame. If you love the series and have the money to play in the bigger leagues, great!

I would set a realistic goal at the upper range (but still comfortably within) your budget; lay out your criteria up front, and see how well you can meet your goals with a minimum of compromise. Collecting is all about competing with one's own goals. While it's fun to compare notes, what other people's collections look like in regards to yours should be a secondary concern.

Lakesammman

PS - My next IHC set is going to be AU - a real challenge to find, yet still beautiful.

Elcontador

I can't speak for IHCs, but as a collector of Large & Half Cents, if you can afford Unc. or AU coins, people like to see some RD on old copper. If you can find them, nice RB coins are far more affordable than full RDs, and IMO, some of them are just as attractive.

Maybe Lakesamman and / or Shylock will comment on my thoughts.

shylock

I'd go for the most appealing coin for the year within your price range, so would lean more towards variety than a matched set. To me variety is what makes the series so interesting. It would be fun to figure out which grade levels offer the most eye appeal for your buck in each date. There may be a few early dates where it's worth going a little over-budget for the right coin, but you could make up for that in the later dates with some beautifully toned RBs & BNs at lower prices than you planned on spending.

In the copper-nickel dates nice, bright MS63-64 examples can be found that were net graded for contact in non-focal areas. Some of these have more appeal than the MS65s, and strike is less of an issue since even the 66s are often weak in the feathertips. Don't limit your search to PCGS slabs -- some really nice lower MS IHs turn up in ANACS slabs, for example. IrishMike has a knack for finding these.

Many of the early bronze dates in RD holders have a RB look to them and, frankly, are pretty rough on the eyes. Attractive AU+ alternatives would be fun to hunt down, and I bet you can find some with cleaner looks than their RD counterparts.

The 1880s dates in RD holders are often deep red or tan toned. You can find RBs that are similar, just a bit more deeply toned. Here's an example of an NGC 1884 65RB at 20% the cost of a 65RD:



As you move into the more common dates I'd put an emphasis on spot free RBs. Solid 64RDs would be nice but are tough to find and a bit more expensive than 65RBs. In these dates you might want to hold out for coins with a little extra character that sets them apart, like nice toning or pristine RB surfaces.

Whatever you decide good luck Tom, it will keep you out of trouble for a long time!

IrishMike

I've been collecting IHC's off and on since the mid 50's. The high grade red coins are breathtaking. I never tire of looking at them because of the various colors and tones even in red. However they seemed to have been maxed out in the slabs. I have a spread sheet that I developed for 64 reds and a complete set will cost you $50k plus to assemble. The problem with 64 reds is that many of them are spotted or have nasty marks on the cheek. We saw a really set of reds at FUN, it was truly amazing. All of them were nice for the grade, but it is rare to see such consistency.

I have an au/bu raw set in the making and have decided it's more fun than trying to collect them slabbed in ms grades, so now I just buy a slabbed one when it knocks me out. As hard as I searched at FUN I only found one slabbed that met my criteria, it was in an NGC slab ms 65 RB and had the nicest purple toning to it. So now I have changed my focus to 65 r/b, 65 bn and 63's and 64 redbrowns that have great eye appeal. The red/browns in all grades are the real bargains. I have cracked some of them out for my album, others are going to stay in their slabs. The red/browns are a lot less forgiving on contact marks, the red ones just broadcast any contact marks, scratches or dings.

edited to add: There are some terrific bargains to be found in ANACS holders, unfortunately the demand for them is picking up. They look so much better in their slabs imho. They are not loose either, they seem to be accurately graded. Any of the cents that have Rick's seal of approval on them are eye appealing too.

You will probably find that a lot of au/bu nonslabbed cents have been wiped or recolored. Personally this doesn't bother me because some of them are so well struck and attractive despite these problems.

Pushkin

I collect IHCs based on eye appeal alone, except for some really tough-to-find varieties. In my experience, if you like the looks of the coin, you probably won't care about the grade. My biggest disappointments have been when I purchased based on grade, not eye appeal. I've never had a coin that I originally had doubts about ever come into favor - have always regretted the purchase.

There are some beautiful AU IHCs out there, and I once owned a XF-45 1877 that I wish I had kept, but I kept an AU-55 instead - still regret that decision - the XF-45 had superior eye appeal.

Just another opinion.

dorkkarl

try an evenly-colored matched set in xf. you'll be amazed at how tough it is, & you'll also be impressed by the set's presentability.

K S

Typetone

Lakes and Irish Mike:

I am collecting purple toned IHC proofs in grades like 64RB, 65BN, and 65RB. Is the purple toning found on mint state specimens as well. If so, I think a beautiful set can do done with 64RDs, 65RDs, and the pretty toned BN and RB pieces.

Greg

Pushkin

<< <i>Is the purple toning found on mint state specimens as well >>



Suggest you be very cautious about purple (and other) toning on MS IHCs. I have some great examples of AT's commercial strikes with nice (but bogus) purple and other color toning, although purple is most common. Just my experience - I'm much more trusting of toning on Proofs.

tjkillian

Thanks for all of your suggestions. I think I will be going for nice coins, not necessarily consistant grade. I've seen some really ugly coins in MS-63 to MS-65 holders. I will take the suggestion to work specifically on eye appeal. Most of the 19th century ones will be either brown or R/B as RED is just too expensive and many of them are not as nice. I will really shoot for uncirculated ones. For the pre-1886, I'm going to put emphasis on full feather tips as that is what is currently floating my boat. I just like copper nickel ones with really full strike and full feather tips.

Tom

clackamas

I agree with Shylock. The RB's on Indians, tend to be nicer than an RB Lincolns and can be readily had for not so outrageaus prices considering they are close to or over 100 years old and made of copper.