Saw the $39,100, 1963 Lincoln cent in COINage Magazine..
BillJones
Posts: 34,316 ✭✭✭✭✭
And I was not impressed. The coin has uneven color on the obverse with a couple of triangular shaped white patches. Normally I won't give that a second thought, but when it gets graded PR-70 RD DCAM and goes for $39,100 I become critical.
In the article mentioned a PR-70, Cameo 1960 large date cent. It too was only one that was graded at that level, but it brought "only" $1,725. So why was the 1963 worth 20 times as much?
This market is for risk taking millionaires who perhaps want to have less in their estates from which to pay inheritance tax when they pass on. A trust would be much more efficient. It sure isn’t for rational collectors who are looking for value based upon true rarity. Paying almost 40 grand for 1963 cent makes about as much sense to me as buying shares of W.T. Grant, F.W. Woolworth or Eastern Airlines for anything other than wallpaper.
In the article mentioned a PR-70, Cameo 1960 large date cent. It too was only one that was graded at that level, but it brought "only" $1,725. So why was the 1963 worth 20 times as much?
This market is for risk taking millionaires who perhaps want to have less in their estates from which to pay inheritance tax when they pass on. A trust would be much more efficient. It sure isn’t for rational collectors who are looking for value based upon true rarity. Paying almost 40 grand for 1963 cent makes about as much sense to me as buying shares of W.T. Grant, F.W. Woolworth or Eastern Airlines for anything other than wallpaper.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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oh well if you got it, might as well blow it i guess.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
<< <i>This market is for risk taking millionaires . >>
I was thinking more on the lines of "This market is for complete morons". Hey, if the buyer has the dough, and doesn't give a flying hoot what the coin is worth in the future, all the power to him/her. For the rest of us..................
LSCC#1864
Ebay Stuff
Well I was trying to be PC. Thanks for saying what was really on my mind....
I'm happy for the seller. Seems he removed an "eye sore" from his collection and made a HUGE profit on the auction.
Hey, go easy, the buyer is probably a Forum member!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
have also pointed out that he sees no "real" value in the similar 1960 cent or any
other modern coin either. Anyone who believes he may actually be stating reality
as he sees it might want to note his final paragraph.
The person who started this thread has large quantities of rare classic coins and is
sufficiently confused to believe his financial position will be enhanced by slamming
other peoples hobbies and livelyhoods. His motives are hardly worthy of comment,
and the ethics are questionable.
As for the 1963 Lincoln - your report is a solid one month too late. I personally graded the coin PR67DCAM or PR68DCAM IMHO at best over a month ago on a thread, as did several other forum members (a few I believe calling the coin as low as a PR67CAM). The question arose whether the coin in fact "turned" in the holder. Few folks were debating whether PCGS would likely take the coin off the market - the only issue was at what price.
To draw broad conclusions of the modern market over the sale of this coin would be like watching a single classic coin sell at auction for a wildly high price and to conclude the entire classic coin market is for multi-millionaires who desire to piss their money away. I am a bit surprised you would reach such a conclusion. Wondercoin
To decry a man’s ethics because you disagree with his opinion on the sagacity of paying record prices for ultra high condition modern coins is disgraceful. I do not know Mr. Jones personally nor have I done business with him, but I have read his posts on this board and I believe him to be one of the more insightful contributors. Mr. Jones has generously shared his knowledge garnered through many years of experience with new collectors, and has tried to steer a number of newbies clear from purchasing over-graded, cleaned, problem coins.
He is certainly only one of many contributors, including many very savvy successful dealers, who see tulip mania in prices paid for top pop common modern coins. Laura Sperber recently wrote at length about this issue and about her attempt to help a client who was buried in high priced modern coins. You are free to prognosticate as you wish about the future market for moderns, reaching different conclusions than Mr. Jones, but there is no justification is slinging mud at someone who has seen market tops and bottoms over 40 years and has reached his own conclusions based upon his own experience.
CG
Setting aside the question of BillJones' motivation, he did ask a question that definitely puzzled me when I read the article in Coinage: Why did the PR70 Cameo 1960 large date cent go for less than $2,000? Bill ays the cent was graded as CAM rahter than DCAM--does this difference acount fo why it went for so much less than the 63 Lincoln? I'd appreciate your reasons behind the difference in prices.
Mark (who loves and collects both classic coins, MS 3CNs, and modern coins, MS clad dimes and so he thinks he is effectively flameproof...but who hates writing about himself in the third person....)
How could you do this? That coin is in no way worth $10 out of the holder.
I too appreciate reading on your experiences. Keep it up.
roadrunner
Brian.
Eastern Airlines is like equating equities to works of art. How does anyone know what the buyer's motivation really is. I guess now we are psychics on this forum who think that all numismatists buy purely for investment. This is lunacy.
Brian.
Mark: Bill's point regarding the PR70CAM at $2,000 is a fair one. IMHO - there is no logical reason why the one coin is $2,000 and the other $39,000. Even if the 1963 Lincoln would have had -0- spots on it (and I also viewed it in person), the $39,000 price would have made little sense to me, however. THERE ARE SUPER BUYS IN MODERN COINS AND CRUMMY BUYS - SAME IS TRUE FOR CLASSICS. There are folks who pay wildly insane prices for moderns and classics at just about every major auction from what I have seen.
I am informed and believe the 1963 Lincoln Cent was sold retail to the customer who consigned the coin to Heritage for roughly a couple thousand dollars. Why (2) people out there wanted to bid $38,000 and $39,000 respectfully for this coin at auction on that evening is beyond me - but, it is certainly not my business to redicule the bidders. My point is simply that two guys in the world could have decided to bid the coin to $1,000,000 that evening - that, in itself, should not result in the entire "modern" coin market from 1932-2002 being painted with the same brush.
And, I also find Bill's posts illuminating, which is why I commented here in the firstplace. Wondercoin.
Collect whatever you like, don't put someone else down for what they like even if it's different than you, but please stop jumping to bad intentions as motives for the very sound advice of making sure your not getting taken for a ride on price for what ever you collect. Of course that advise does not apply to millionaires and others who don't care what there coins are worth should they want to or need to sell them some day. Enjoy the finest hobby in the world. coin collecting, So what do you say we all get some jelly daughnuts and chill out!!!
Hey! Ya' never know...
In any case, it was pretty obvious to just about everybody (some weeks ago when the auction was going on and after it completed) that the price was all about the label, not the coin.
Remember for ever buyer there's a seller. One man's $39K completion of a registry set is another man's deluxe Hawaiin vacation for him and his family. Makes it sound better to me, anyway.
<< <i>Clad King
To decry a man’s ethics because you disagree with his opinion on the sagacity of paying record prices for ultra high condition modern coins is disgraceful. I do not know Mr. Jones personally nor have I done business with him, but I have read his posts on this board and I believe him to be one of the more insightful contributors. Mr. Jones has generously shared his knowledge garnered through many years of experience with new collectors, and has tried to steer a number of newbies clear from purchasing over-graded, cleaned, problem coins.
He is certainly only one of many contributors, including many very savvy successful dealers, who see tulip mania in prices paid for top pop common modern coins. Laura Sperber recently wrote at length about this issue and about her attempt to help a client who was buried in high priced modern coins. You are free to prognosticate as you wish about the future market for moderns, reaching different conclusions than Mr. Jones, but there is no justification is slinging mud at someone who has seen market tops and bottoms over 40 years and has reached his own conclusions based upon his own experience.
CG >>
You are mostly right with everything you say here. When it comes to the few subjects
he understands Mr. Jones is an insightful contributor, and it would be disgraceful to decry
a man's ethics for questioning the wisdom of paying record prices for any coin. Where I
must take exception to Mr. Jones is his hit and run modern bashing. It is his unthinking
knee jerk reaction to any coin that isn't a recognized classic rarity. It is his slamming the
character and ethics of anyone who would dare try to profit by investment in moderns. It
is his condescending attitude toward those who enjoy collecting them in any grade.
As far as Legend's experience with moderns, if you go back and read the thread, I think
you'll agree she won a battle and lost the war.
I came to this topic late because I don’t spend much time worrying about the overpriced modern market. One of my customers mentioned that he had seen photos of the $39K cent in COINage, and I followed up on it. My customer raised the possibility that this entire episode could have been a sham that was conducted for publicity and marketing purposes. It certainly was not a transaction that gave out the aura of a rational act when similar coins were selling at the same auction for a fraction of the price. I have personally seen what can be done with auction results and sometimes things are not what they might appear to be.
I thank those who have jumped to my defense here. My motivations have always been to warn new collectors about potential scams and fad markets that collapse in the long run. I have no vested interest in discouraging collectors from building whatever sets they might enjoy. I do think that it is entirely appropriate to warn new collectors about purchases that can lead to huge financial losses.
As a YN I lost a large amount of money on a set of Indian cents and a set of BU Franklin half dollars. Those experiences taught me some valuable lessons, but the same sort of experience could lead others to leave the hobby. My goal here is give people advice so that they might avoid similar mistakes. Yes some high grade modern coins are worth premium prices. But when I see prices that leap from a couple of bucks in MS or PR-65 to hundreds and thousands in higher grades, I think the experienced collectors and dealers have a duty to inform inexperienced collectors that many people who have been in this industry for a long time think that this is folly.
Hopefully the buyer of the 1963 Lincoln cent will send the coin back to PCGS as a guaranteed resubmission.David Hall will put the best 1963 Deep cameo in a proof 70 holder.........and we can move on from this topic.
I tell you it is madness !!!!!! Registry Fever
stewart
I mean, yeah, seem high to me too, but there are so many ways to spend a lot of money that I wouldn't think were "worth it" that this is just another example.
as far as the price of things, its probability and outcome: some buys, you have a high probability that your purchase will contain durable "value" and that it will be "liquid" enough to sell when you want for how much you want,
and other things, when you buy them, have a lower probability of containing "value"
I just hope that the buyer in question gets a lot of psychic "value" form his purchase, because IMO his probability of ever realizing any monetary value is quite low.
personally, I'd rather have this one dollar proof penny (pictured below) plus $39K worth of other coins, the coin is a pretty nice memorial cent, the scratch above the date is on the plastic slide:
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
preponderance of evidence and it will not result in anything other than a defence of
moderns from me. It may well be tiring for all involved and it will soon be a good time
for the weary to move on. But when he takes it further and slams me personally on
this or any other board or when he slams people who collect or trade in these coins,
he has gone too far. Perhaps if he were to read any posts than his own he could at
least come up with reasons not to belittle others and their collections, but there has
been no propensity to this in the past and it seems unlikely to change.
I have never publicly here or anywhere commented on the quality, value, or investment
potential of the '63 cent and that is unlikely to change soon.
<< <i>My statement that the 1963 cent was only worth $10 was over the top, and I apologize for that. But I will stick by my contention that a lot of these coins are great deal more INSIDE the “right” holder than when they are raw. This is the fundamental problem with certified modern coins that bring run away prices. Certification can slightly to moderately enhance the value of a coin, but it should not cause the value to rise by factors of a hundred to one or more. A legitimately expensive coin should be a valuable item in and OUT OF the holder. >>
Most high value coins are getting increasingly difficult to sell raw. This is somewhat more
pronounced in moderns. This spread between raw and slabbed has been narrowing for
some time and is likely to narrow more as time goes on. Indeed, since surface problems
are less of an issue with moderns it is likely that eventually this spread will be less for the
moderns than for the classics.
<< <i>I came to this topic late because I don’t spend much time worrying about the overpriced modern market. One of my customers mentioned that he had seen photos of the $39K cent in COINage, and I followed up on it. My customer raised the possibility that this entire episode could have been a sham that was conducted for publicity and marketing purposes. It certainly was not a transaction that gave out the aura of a rational act when similar coins were selling at the same auction for a fraction of the price. I have personally seen what can be done with auction results and sometimes things are not what they might appear to be. >>
One can call the modern market overpriced until one is blue in the face and it will not affect
the value of a single coin. One can cast aspersions on the sanity of an aution buyer or the
honesty of an aution, but it has no effect on the buyer or the aution. In some cases it may
well say far more about the person casting the aspersions.
<< <i>I thank those who have jumped to my defense here. My motivations have always been to warn new collectors about potential scams and fad markets that collapse in the long run. I have no vested interest in discouraging collectors from building whatever sets they might enjoy. I do think that it is entirely appropriate to warn new collectors about purchases that can lead to huge financial losses. >>
Let's see, you say it's fine to collect any coin you want but if they're modern there will be huge
losses in your future. If consumer education were your only goal and you lacked ulterior motives
then why do you slam the coins? Why do you slam those who grade them? Why do you slam
those who deal or invest in them? Why can't you tell them about past instances of faddish
markets and let them draw their own conclusions? Why do you slam those who aution them
and those who bid on them? Why don't you read the responses to your many slams on this
and other boards.
<< <i>As a YN I lost a large amount of money on a set of Indian cents and a set of BU Franklin half dollars. Those experiences taught me some valuable lessons, but the same sort of experience could lead others to leave the hobby. My goal here is give people advice so that they might avoid similar mistakes. Yes some high grade modern coins are worth premium prices. But when I see prices that leap from a couple of bucks in MS or PR-65 to hundreds and thousands in higher grades, I think the experienced collectors and dealers have a duty to inform inexperienced collectors that many people who have been in this industry for a long think that this is folly. >>
If consumer education is your only goal, why do you slam moderns relentlessly? ...And most im-
portantly if you are really concerned about the future of the hobby then why do you belittle the
states quarters at every opportunity.
Sorry Billjones but your words ring hollow.
It seems to me that you are the only person slamming anyone here. Bill Jones is not slamming you or any individual or any coins. He is merely expressing his view of the financial risks associated with paying high prices for certain top pop coins. In his view whoever bought that 1963 cent will not recover his investment in it. He has never said that anyone who collects moderns will incur big financial losses. The distinction is between those who collect moderns at prices that correspond to the coins' overall scarcity and those who pay huge multiples for top pops. By the way, he has said the very same thing time and again about classic coins, pointing out, for example, that classics in MS64 are often a much better value than 65's when there is a big spread in prices between those grades.
CG
you HAVE to admit that it's a bit ridiculous that someone paid $39,000 for a proof cent that could be had in very similar condition for $1. you have to admit that guy is a bit eccentric.
i collect mostly moderns and i think a lot of things are crazy - like refusing to pay $20 for a morgan, but paying thousands and thousands because an identical one has a little "CC" on the back. or paying huge dollars for an error that can only be seen through a loupe.
take one step back and realize most people who don't collect coins think we're all idiots for paying more than face value for coins.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
<< <i>clad,
you HAVE to admit that it's a bit ridiculous that someone paid $39,000 for a proof cent that could be had in very similar condition for $1. you have to admit that guy is a bit eccentric.
i collect mostly moderns and i think a lot of things are crazy - like refusing to pay $20 for a morgan, but paying thousands and thousands because an identical one has a little "CC" on the back. or paying huge dollars for an error that can only be seen through a loupe.
take one step back and realize most people who don't collect coins think we're all idiots for paying more than face value for coins. >>
I refuse to slam anyone or what he collects. I also will not slams the actual objects
he collects. What I think about the value of the '63 cent is immaterial since I have
no intention of buying it. My only comment would be that the coin is obviously special.
<< <i>Clad King,
It seems to me that you are the only person slamming anyone here. Bill Jones is not slamming you or any individual or any coins. He is merely expressing his view of the financial risks associated with paying high prices for certain top pop coins. In his view whoever bought that 1963 cent will not recover his investment in it. He has never said that anyone who collects moderns will incur big financial losses. The distinction is between those who collect moderns at prices that correspond to the coins' overall scarcity and those who pay huge multiples for top pops. By the way, he has said the very same thing time and again about classic coins, pointing out, for example, that classics in MS64 are often a much better value than 65's when there is a big spread in prices between those grades.
CG >>
Mr. Jones has gone out of his way to question my integrity on the Coin World Forum.
The moderator at that site deletes my posts because they don't agree with his
so I can not even defend myself. Coin World has refused to intercede so I have no
options.
While Billjones slams in this thread may be low-key, this is not always the case.
buy for collecting and for fun with discretionary funds
weather it be a modern slabbed sae or state quarter or sac dollar or clad coinage 2000 lincoln cents or
chain cents seated coins proof barbers etc
but when you see a coin for sale ask yourself this question
if i broke this coin out of its respective holder what can i sell it for tomorrow on ebay or at a coin show?
if the price in the holder is greatly vastly different than the coin raw
this i think
willhelp you make better buying decsisons
buy the coin not the holder
if in a holder buy the coin like it was raw to you
yes slabbing does Maximise the coin and also helps in saleability
but if you have a coin worth 100 1000 2000 dollars in a holder and it is worth face value or under 20 dollars ........................raw then i think this information might help you with your buying decsisons
sincerely michael