Why Are Coin Websites So Poorly Designed?
SarasotaFrank
Posts: 1,625 ✭✭
I was looking for some photos today to use as examples of photography I want to create for a coin dealer's brochure I am developing. I cruised through about 30 sites and found two which I figured were worth a flip and more than two dozen which were horrid.
Building a nice, tight, well organized website is a simple thing to do, and many of the sites I viewed probably haven't been updated in eons. If a dealer wants to be taken seriously, I would think having a well designed professional site (particularly if they do a great deal of internet business) would be Priority #1. After all, this is your place of business.
It appears many coin websites were created with the world's worst web site creation software - Microsoft FrontPage. If you have it and use it, and enjoy, by all means, I mean no offense. However for a little bit of money you can obtain much more sohisticated software which is easy to use and lets you prepare really professional sites.
While this is not intended as a commercial, I do create web sites, marketing literature and direct mail programs for a living, and if someone out there wants some help, feel free to pm me.
As an aside, I visited a very high profile site and found this little gem of wisdom:
(xyz company) deals primarily in coins that rank in the top 5% for the grade, or coins that are of the FINEST KNOWN quality. While you may have coins that appear to be similar to the images you see on our site, we can assure you, they are not.
hows that for elitist?
1943 CENT - ONLY THE COPPER PIECES ARE RARE!
To test if your coin IS copper, use a magnet. Copper will NOT stick to a magnet. Sometimes the Zinc coated ones get so ditry they don't stick either.
is d-i-t-r-y similar to d-i-r-t-y?
This is what I am talking about. If you want people to think nothing of spending thousands of dollars on coins with you, give some thought to looking like you've earned your keep, and by all means, learn to freaking spell!
Building a nice, tight, well organized website is a simple thing to do, and many of the sites I viewed probably haven't been updated in eons. If a dealer wants to be taken seriously, I would think having a well designed professional site (particularly if they do a great deal of internet business) would be Priority #1. After all, this is your place of business.
It appears many coin websites were created with the world's worst web site creation software - Microsoft FrontPage. If you have it and use it, and enjoy, by all means, I mean no offense. However for a little bit of money you can obtain much more sohisticated software which is easy to use and lets you prepare really professional sites.
While this is not intended as a commercial, I do create web sites, marketing literature and direct mail programs for a living, and if someone out there wants some help, feel free to pm me.
As an aside, I visited a very high profile site and found this little gem of wisdom:
(xyz company) deals primarily in coins that rank in the top 5% for the grade, or coins that are of the FINEST KNOWN quality. While you may have coins that appear to be similar to the images you see on our site, we can assure you, they are not.
hows that for elitist?
1943 CENT - ONLY THE COPPER PIECES ARE RARE!
To test if your coin IS copper, use a magnet. Copper will NOT stick to a magnet. Sometimes the Zinc coated ones get so ditry they don't stick either.
is d-i-t-r-y similar to d-i-r-t-y?
This is what I am talking about. If you want people to think nothing of spending thousands of dollars on coins with you, give some thought to looking like you've earned your keep, and by all means, learn to freaking spell!
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather did, as opposed to screaming in terror like his passengers."
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Comments
<< <i>(xyz company) deals primarily in coins that rank in the top 5% for the grade, or coins that are of the FINEST KNOWN quality. While you may have coins that appear to be similar to the images you see on our site, we can assure you, they are not. >>
Frank, you know by the above quote us collectors know nothing about coins. We are just supposed to believe these kind of statements, shut up, and send our money. On another note..... the above quote sounds like something I've heard many times before, wonder where it came from?
CoinPeople.com || CoinWiki.com || NumisLinks.com
Note: I'm not taking offers just yet...
I agree when you get used to something, It becaomes to easy to consider switching. It seems to be so loose and limited however, and I am amazed at the number of high profile dealers who have unprofessional over-animated websites created with frontpage.
I can only speak for myself. I have as much ability in design as I have in Banjo playing. Zilch.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
(xyz company) deals primarily in coins that rank in the top 5% for the grade, or coins that are of the FINEST KNOWN quality. While you may have coins that appear to be similar to the images you see on our site, we can assure you, they are not.
hows that for elitist? "
That is from Legends web site. I consider this an attack out of the clear blue sky. It has nothing to do with his original first part of the thread.
Sarasota Frank-have you EVER dealt with us? What is your problem? Sounds to me like you have a chip on your shoulder caused by someone else. Be thankful I respect freedom of speech!
Obvuiously you had to bash Legends site.
I love it when someone who doesn't know us makes false statements! Do you know why, for a fact, why so many dealers and customers have ever gotten upgrades from our coins? Names and references ARE available. Now to speak in english, no not every coin we sell can go up, but we buy MANY from guys who have tried them hard, so some eventually DO work. I personally promise that the majority of coins we do sell, rank among the finest you can find for the grade. No hype, no BS, that is the truth! How do you think we earned the right to place coins in many of the greatest collections ever formed? And if you ever learn to read, you see we state very clearly we deal PRIMARILY-which means not every coin can be the top 5% for the grade.
My offical public statement is we are NOT elitest and we do NOT decieve. We are sincere in what we try to do and say.
Unlike Sarasota Frank, I will NOT waste anymore of the publics time on this unwarranted attack.
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
and the pictures accurately reflect the coins on the site. The quality and grade of the coins is very high.
Legend does in fact deal with the highest quality type classical coins. To say otherwise, without
ordering coins from them and putting them to the test ,is just plain silly and foolish. The criticism on
this thread does a great diservice to a great company. Bear
Camelot
<< <i>Sarasota Frank-have you EVER dealt with us? What is your problem? Sounds to me like you have a chip on your shoulder caused by someone else. >>
never. don't intend to. I don't collect bazillion dollar coins.
<< <i> Be thankful I respect freedom of speech! >>
why? What would you do? Call me names? Say bad things about my mother?
<< <i>Obvuiously you had to bash Legends site. >>
No, in fact, I didn't - hence my not including the name of the company. You took it upon yourself to do so. For a company that markets itself as being among the very best, I find your internet presence to be very ordinary and amateurish. Further, I find the tone of your internet site statements to be condescending. Get a clue - the way you look on the internet to someone who has no idea who Legand is, frames their opinion - which may be a determining factor in whether or not they chose to do business with you. The Gods live in the details.
In response, you might say if a collector doesn't know Legend, they probably aren't an astute collector. So be it, but remember - success is never final.
And, O-B-V-I-O-U-S-L-Y I was correct about the learn to spell part.
<< <i>I love it when someone who doesn't know us makes false statements! >>
I must have missed the false statement, and since you are loving it so much, why do you appear to be so miffed?
<< <i>My offical public statement is we are NOT elitest and we do NOT decieve. We are sincere in what we try to do and say. >>
My official public statement is that I perceive you to be very elitist - which is your right. I have found your comments regarding "lowly" collectors and "wannabe's" to be condescending, distasteful and a detriment to the hobby.
I also believe you DO NOT deceive, and I believe you have a following of very astute collectors.
<< <i> The criticism on this thread does a great diservice to a great company. Bear >>
Bear:
With all due respect - I never mentioned Legend. Laura recognized the language from her website and blew her stack.
sf
Neil
You went off the deep end on this one. Frank didn't even mention your site and you jumped down his throat but yes.... I felt the same way as Frank when I first read that statement. The rest of your reply to frank makes no sense.
-Dave
Personally, I think Legend's site is pretty good. How much can one really do with a coin dealer web site anyway? It just isn't the type of website that would have a zillion features and remember that with most websites that have a bunch of features, you have to make a user account to access many of those features. If you want to look at amateurish websites, mine would be a good example
I agree with Bear that the pics on Legend's site are very nice, plus they have good descriptions and different categories of coins, etc. What more do you really want from their site?
JJacks
is to view what is for sale, good and accurate photography and ease of use. If I like a coin,
I will contact someone at the company and discuss the coin or coins in greater detail. Since I am not
buying the opening statement , it matters not what it says or doesnt say. Some websites seem to
make it diificult to get an image without leaving all your personal info including shoe size. Other
sites dont list prices but ask you to call. I have found the easiest to use have been Pinnacle,
Larry Whitlow and Legend.
I am not able to discuss the more technical aspects of building a website, but since I am
computor challanged , ease of use of a website is very important to me. If it should be too difficult
I move on to a different company.
Camelot
Right now, I'm not happy with the layout of our front page and have expressed that to my web guy.
Images, those are a whole other topic. We have NEVER been satisfied with what we put up. I don't want to say what we use, but we are looking at ways to improve the images and the site.
About Whitlows site: Mike Prinz did it himself. I am impressed!
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
"Ditry" misspelled? Technically yes, but give me a break. I would agree that Legend should take the extra 10 minutes to proof read what they post. Spell check at least. It's the last step a professional organization should do. A must IMO. If I have mispelled something forgive me, I'm an amateur. Does the Forum even have a spell check feature??? I don't think so. It levels the playing field.
Of course your reply was a direct attack at Legend. I'd have to say that their use of the "top 5% of the grade" is almost like a "trademark statement." I'm surprised they don't TM it. As soon as I saw that I knew you were hammering them. Remember when Scott Travers went after someone for using "in trust" in their logo.....since he had orig coined "in Travers we trust." I'm surprised than the US Mint didn't go after Travers for copyright infringement of all their coins since 1864!........"in God we trust."
IMO Legend has the best coin web site. Better than Heritage (too hard to get around and busy as all heck), better than BM, better than DLRC, better than RCNH, better than Stacks (poor), better than Pinnacle (a close 2nd), better than Whitlow (another close 2nd), better than Albanese, and frankly better than all the others. It's simple, easy to use, photos are usually excellent, frequently updated (unlike most others), and the info at times is a bit overdone, it is usefull and insightful. I like to read other's opinions but very few post anything with consistency. I wish some of the other sites above would take the time to put out something "worth" reading. I do love the Heritage auction archives however.
roadrunner
<< <i>Of course your reply was a direct attack at Legend. >>
who are you - Merlin the MindReader? I had no intent on attacking Legend, which is why I didn't mention Legend by name.
My comments apply to many websites, as I don't think a lot of folks have a handle on positioning themselves on the internet and the impression their sites create.
<< <i>IMO Legend has the best coin web site. >>
I understand perfectly now.
SF is correct with his comments about websites. Companies hire professional PR firms and Ad agencies to insure that they project a positive image. Yet, often they will post a website maintained by some entry level marketing person, or even worse, some IT guy who gathers and posts pages from different departments. Small companies often hire some outside guy who knows how to develop sites but knows nothing about the company or corporate image. He simply gathers info and makes it look pretty. This is a recipe for disaster.
If you are a retailer, the Web Site is "your company" everytime you receive a hit. Everyone in business knows how important a first impression is. Often, the customer decides within the first minute whether this is a company with which they will do business. Outdated websites are a death wish to a business. Poorly written or conceived introductory statements are a turn off. Everyone with a website should view it regularly from customer's point of view and keep it fresh with a current image of your company. How many potential customers have been lost because of your web site. A question that deserves to be asked, but can never be accurately measured.
When I read the line "While you may have coins that appear to be similar to the images you see on our site, we can assure you, they are not." I was instantly turned off. I had no Idea whose site he was mentioning and it didn't matter. That is a poorly conceived statement and does not belong on any web site. IMHO
The fact that the website belonged to Legend is not relevent. I don't think many here would have known that until Laura chimed in.
As a potential customer to all you dealers who have web sites, keep your eye on the ball. Otherwise, I'll click right by.
I'll bet these phrases used by major numismatic dealerships and organizations, if used independently of the name, followed by a flame, would not be an attack either:
"the world's largest rare coin dealer"
"America's #1 numismatic auctioneer"
"official grading service of the PNG"
"your friends in the rare coin business"
"the collector's friend"
"certified coins for the collector"
"certified coins with eye appeal"
"trusted by serious collectors worldwide"
"king of cash"
"quality - honesty - integrity"
"knowledge, integrity, responsibility"
"the reliable seasoned professionals"
as an aside to anyone wasting time like me with this thread, guess the related organizations above. Prize: have your website critiqued for free by a "CU forum member from Sarasota."
roadrunner
I could have left off the 5% part and just quoted the portion you mentioned, as that was the telling part of that statement.
perhaps others would not have gotten their shorts in such a collective twist.
<< <i>as an aside to anyone wasting time like me with this thread, guess the related organizations above. Prize: have your website critiqued for free by a "CU forum member from Sarasota."
roadrunner >>
aw shucks RR, I would critique your site for free. What's the address?
Call it elitist if you will, but I think it serves its purpose.
BTW - it's spelled 'sophisticated', not 'sohisticated'. And it's 'becomes', not 'becoames'
Perhaps those without sin should cast the first stone?
<< <i>Ever been in the coin business? Ever wonder how many people find a wheatback penny and call up the first 1-800 number they can find to ask how much it's worth? How much manpower is wasted handling those types of calls?
Call it elitist if you will, but I think it serves its purpose.
BTW - it's spelled 'sophisticated', not 'sohisticated'. And it's 'becomes', not 'becoames'
Perhaps those without sin should cast the first stone? >>
TDN:
I fully understand the intent, and I agree regarding time wasting calls.
You will find an overwhelming number of typos in my posts - but not a single one on my website, or my clients websites, or in their advertisements, or their brochures.
As a partner in Legend, if I were you, I would be insisting on the company putting it's best foot forward, and developing the most professional web presence possible.
Words to live by in this business are "you are not what you are, you are what you say you are and appear to be"
<< <i>I'd rather see more constructive input on what everyone likes to see in a dealer website. >>
Sure, but first what I don't like....... Always saying PQ!!!!
Always saying we don't know why this isn't the next grade up.
Please, stop the stories. Describe the coin put a price and image up..... And I will ask the questions. If you they don't want to answer my questions.......SEE YA
And that statement was a bit snobbish. Sorry if coin dealers have to waste their time talking to customers that don't have $100,000 to spend. As an attorney, should I just tell potential clients that unless they've got a great case, don't waste my time. Everyone deserves to be treated with respect and courtesy 'cause you never know who you really are talking to.
Get back to the thread about how most coin websites suck.
Michael
Dealer puffery is so much a part of today's business I take all of it with a grain of salt. Paying top dollar.....etc. Everyone says it or implies it. No one actually gives it. All fluff.
Here's a question for Adrian and the lawyers. Most, if not all dealer websites are copyrighted. Is it ok to go in and extract quotes and paragraphs without giving credit? Is a footnote required? (ie. a reference to the source). Just another Sunday night on the boards. How hum.
roadrunner
& good images, bad images are like no images at all!
Legend's website is the best [for the coin business] and is even now still under construction. There are lots of features that could be enhanced or changed to spice it up. And, yes, Laura uses quite a bit of hyperbole in her writing. But that's the way she is - Legend is too small a firm for a partner to hide for long - and the customers accept the drawbacks in return for the value provided.
With regard to pictures - we all know you can't grade off a picture. Someone sees a MS67 Morgan with a value of $5,000 and wonders why their shiny AU isn't worth the same. After 100's of the same type of phone calls, the disclaimer got put on the site.
roadruner
I said nothing about the "quality" of a site. I was referring to the message (image) they convey. I am quite satisfied with a site that simply tells me who they are. Is easy to find what I am looking for, clean images, PRICES. And is clearly current. That can be done simply with a "last updated" statement. I am quickly turned off by poor grammer, spelling, BS, poor search features. I would say....do it right or don't do it. If they can't do a web site right, why would I think they could do my coins right.
Using exact quotes and references from websites could be perceived in other than "helpful" ways. Heaven help someone if you they had extracted something from TAGZ's website for instance to critique. Can you say bombs away.................?
Regardless of the puffery in most all of the coin websites, I get great entertainment and often educational value from reading them. Isn't that what this is all about......a hobby.....to learn and entertain?
roadrunner
I happen to find Legend's web site simple and very functional. Not fancy and sure it has typos.
But boy when it has typos, I know Laura wrote it herself and not some slick marketing and advisory guru. Sort of a comforting expectation.
Sure, it isn't perfect but heck I buy the coins NOT the web site!!!
Just remember the adage............
it is all about the coins NOT the glitter of the web site.
In fact, I take a dim view of those who make their web sites TOO NICE!!! That means they are getting AWAY from the coins that I want then to find for me, etc. which is what I care about!!! Just my opinion!
EDITED TO CORRECT STUPID SPEELING MISTAKE!
<< <i>I will NOT waste anymore of the publics time on this unwarranted attack. >>
Lighten up Laura! He means no harm.
<< <i>Just remember the adage............
it is all about the coins NOT the glitter of the web site.
>>
I think this sums it up.
1) There is nothing elitist about not wanting to waste time on repeated questions that will NEVER lead to any business. When the 1943 copper cent was reported lost in Idaho, Legend received hundreds of phone calls regarding people supposedly having found the coin. As you remember, it was publicized to be worth quite a bit more that it really was. Rather than deal with those phone calls, they chose to put that up that info regarding the copper cent on the site.
2) There is nothing elitist about disclaiming that a coin similar to one pictured is not worth the same. After a few thousand phone calls of "what is my shiny dollar that looks like yours worth", you'd consider doing the same. Hell, even experienced numismatists can't grade off a scan! But they are experienced enough to know it! The general public is not.
3) There are ways to make a point that are offensive and there are ways to make a point that are not. The thread degraded into the latter rather than the former. And Laura didn't help, but she's rather feisty about her coin company's rep. And it's obvious that some people know now how to push her buttons. That website is available to the general public and unfortunately must screen out some non collectors before they call. Yet some insist on jumping to the conclusion that it's geared to deflect the small collector. How self centered!
I agree with Oreville. If it's slick you want - check out some others, they are much nicer. If it's good coins and honest, straightforward advice, then look past the typos and take a gander.
In fact, it is a miracle that as many coin dealers and collectors have embraced the internet as we have seen thus far.
Many of the oldtimers (including me) are indeed newcomers to the internet itself compared to many other industries.
Examination of our history is in order to understand this better.
_________________
Frankly speaking, I'm going to have to side with SarasotaFrank on this one. I knew very well where he pulled the quote in question from, and only because I too have found it to be very off-putting. Yes, stating that you try to deal only in the top percentages of the very best is a fine thing to claim. Taking it a step further to remind me that, in all likelihood, my holdings (unless I am particularly well-off) are most assuredly NOT of such caliber is not something likely to warm this collector's heart. Note that this is NOT explicitly said - but it IS explicitly felt (by me) and, I think I'm somewhat perceptive.
Interesting that Jon at RCONH has seen fit to chime in, and in no less a way than I'd expect from him, very diplomatically. I bring it up only to point out that when I've dealt with Jon, it's been with items more than likely along the lines of $50-$100. One time it was for a $495 item. A big spender, I would not be considered. But every one of those transactions has been (to me, which is what counts) conducted as though I were one.
I've noticed that RCONH will sometimes have a $20 coin listed. And sometimes a glittering gem such as the (1855 I think it was) $3 from the Dallas Bank collection. Side by side, the common man's coin and the piece whose sum is best described as "kingly" are able to coexist.
Let no one infer that I think Legend ought to start dealing in "inferior" coinage. But if they would be so good as to not noticeably belittle the vast majority of collectors and collections out there, I would think it could only benefit them. Perhaps I'm naive but I sincerely doubt that there is a dealer ANYWHERE who has not tired of the repetitive "beginner" questions. I was full of them once, myself. Could it be possible that a slightly more positive way of stating essentially the same thing might be employed?
"Your friends in the rare coin business" - a statement that rang true for me for quite a number of years.
"Please do not bother us with your obviously inferior coins - if you have to ask, then you most certainly DO NOT belong in our league."
This last paraphrase is mine alone, but in case anyone thinks it might be a good one to work with, by all means, be my guest. I don't think you'll have many imitators.
I can't help but think as I type - what actually drew me into trying out Rare Coins of New Hampshire? It's been a few years now. (Sorry to drag you into this again Jon, but it is germane to the discussion as it is absolutely true in my case.)
NEVER had I heard of RCONH before. Didn't have any kind of referral, had not yet been to this board even, and heard about the kind of quality service they provide.
All I saw was a double page Coin World ad that had an item that tempted me. OK, so it was "just" a $50 Barber half, but hey, that's an amount of money that isn't chump change, at least to me.
But would it be any good? I know, again, it's just $50, and I'm surely out of line to expect any kind of special service for that piddling amount. But, for some strange reason, I do. Still I hesitated; I did not relish the idea of sending off money and ending up disappointed.
Then I saw the smallish lines near their logo and phone number: Our quality is different... we've backed up any raw coin we sell as to the slab grade for X years... and MOST IMPORTANT BY FAR:
"Give real numismatists a CHANCE to EARN YOUR business." (Emphases are mine - to show what most caught my eye.)
Really says quite a lot, doesn't it? Since that time, my collector dollars - few in number though they may be - have found a happy, welcoming and great home there.
of inexpensive coins, then its real simple, just take your bussiness to someone else. Each dealer
is entitled to make the website any way they wish. Since you cant please all of the collectors all
of the time then its no use trying. Many dealers have carved out a segment of the collector field
and most seem to do very well by their clients and for their clients. This whole thread sounds like
someone is looking for a consulting job and a big fee. If we are going to stir the pot, then lets make
it a nice pot of stew. Then we can all sit down and have a pleasent meal.
Camelot
Legend says they try to deal in the top 5% of quality for the grade, you say they are elitist. Perhaps an alternate interpretation would be that they try to buy and sell quality coins to anybody that cares to deal with them.
Legend says we don't have the time to deal with a thousand questions regarding copper cents, you say they aren't collector friendly. Most collectors know how to tell the difference already - so why would they be offended by that section?
Legend says just because you have the same type of coin that looks frosty doesn't mean it's worth what a MS67 gem is, you say they are snobs. Perhaps an alternate interpretation would be that they really, really don't have the time to deal with the general public but welcome any certified coin collector. A certified coin collector already knows the difference.
I think perhaps you are seeing what you want to see. But all feedback is good, certainly the language can be tweaked a bit. Thanks.
Not true. As evidence, go to www.most_any_combination_of_english_words.com and see what you think.
I had a conversation with an amazingly arrogant ebay seller tonight. She has a Washington Quarter lot listed comprised of 16 different pieces and there's a single small picture of the group, not even big enough to read the labels. I wrote asking for an enlarged scan and her reply was for me to go look at her past auctions because the 16 coins had been listed singly without selling and I could look at them that way.
When I informed her that I wasn't particularly inclined to look through her 196 items from the last month so I could see 16 of them individually she said that it was my loss and her gain and for me never to bid on her items in the future. Absolutely incredible, she apparently has a composite scan, all she had to do was attach it to her email.
A website or advertisement to get people in the door is just the first step although an important one at that. Quality and service is where the rubber meets the road. I do know that Legend has no problems in those departments.
Not in particular having any axe to grind, nonetheless I felt compelled to throw in my two cents here. Glad you were willing to listen to the feedback, and didn't mind it too much, I hope.
I like the sites where you make a want list and when they get a coin it automaticaly emails you. David Lawerence is one I like. If the coin doesn't have a picture you click on the 'request image' button and you have a pict the next day.
Heritage's site is similar but it gives me fits. Especially the way they send you an email with 5 coins that were on your wantlist and they now have them in stock.......
You click on the coin in your email, sign in to Heritage, click the tracking button
hit the back button to go back to your email
click on the other coin in your email, sign in to Heritage again, click the tracking button
hit the back button to go back to your email
click on the other coin in your email, sign in to Heritage again, click the tracking button
etc etc etc etc over & over
And it's free net based email so 5 popups open every time I hit the back button, my pop up killer is going BOOM!! BOOM!! BOOM!!
Popups suck too did I say that?