An Opinion about Toned World Coinage
TomB
Posts: 21,597 ✭✭✭✭✭
I started a different thread yesterday about the class of an ebay seller who sent me a refund check even though we had both thought that the coin was lost forever. In the initial post I wrote a short note about toned world coinage. There was a question in that thread about my note and I responded, however, the resident troll reading it decided to debate it and that thread was not the venue for that debate. Here is what I wrote, everyone is free to agree or disagree based on reason and logic. I might not be correct in each case, but I'm honest.
Think of it this way; what are the pieces that are likely to be found with exceptionally attractive toning and how were they stored? For US coins the quick answers are Morgan dollars, coinage from the 1940s and 1950s, brown pack Ikes, proof Indian Head cents and any coinage widely collected as a series and that had commercial albums made for it. So, many or most of the truly attractive Morgan dollars were taken from Mint burlap bags after decades of storage, the coinage from the 1940s and 1950s was nearly always obtained from the highly reactive US Mint Set envelopes, brown pack Ikes were all sold in US government provided packaging that was made up of plastic and cardboard and most of those were kept in that packaging for some time, proof Indian Head cents were stored in US Mint tissue or, for later dates, bought in large groups by several dealers and stored in Kraft envelopes and widely collected series stored in commercial albums often are stored in albums made before the mid-1970s. Looking at this list, what do these coins have in common, for the most part? Aside from the widely collected series, they are all either proof or mint state, there is no circulated coinage listed here. Also, many of the widely collected series were also saved in mint state, though not all. What else do they have in common? They were all stored in a manner such that they were exposed to high amounts of endogenous packaging sulfur. Please also keep in mind that most of these coins tone in a manner that is simply ugly or, at best, eye appeal neutral. Relatively few of these coins tone in a manner that is widely considered attractive or positive for eye appeal or price.
How about the world market? Well, the issues were generally of lower mintage to begin with for many of these coins. This cuts down the pool for individual coins. Also, with less disposable income and fewer coins available it was more likely a higher percentage of minted coins saw circulation and, once that occurs, flow lines are rapidly removed and this really prohibits most forms of deep toning in any colors other than dark grey, navy or auburn. Aside from the previous statement, I don't believe the types of cardboard holders that have been so popular among collectors in this country over the last seventy years were made, available or popular among collectors around the world for other coinage. Additionally, I don't see the same type of packaging historically present in the coinage from other nations. They weren't as likely to be issued in a sulfur-laden enivronment.
What are the world coins that I see with great toning? How about Maundy money, Canadian Mint Set coinage, Canadian Specimen Set coinage, European crown sized commemoratives, pedigreed coinage from older and complete collections and the odd coin that one finds here. What do these have in common? Sulfur impregnated holders that the coins were issued in. Maundy money was often stored in velvet lined holders and these coins are often dark but sometimes spectacularly toned, Canadian Mint Set coinage was sold, in the 1950s and 1960s, in cardboard holders that produce some of the wildest colors I have ever seen, Canadian Specimen Set coinage was also sold in a velvet enclosed box, European crown sized commemoratives were likewise issued or stored in this type of environment and, finally, older complete collections were well cared for in velvet or Kraft envelope storage many times. What else do these coins have in common? They are nearly all mint state or proof issues that saw no circulation.
There are no doubt other examples and will also be exceptions to the rule, so to speak. However, it is pretty clear that if you take the time to look instead of state then you will find some absolutely stunning and wild world coinage. The most wildly toned copper I own is Canadian, my best toned commemorative is a German crown sized coin, we have all likely seen those stunningly toned Canadian dollars from the Specimen Sets issued within the last thirty years, I have many gorgeously toned pieces from the Phillipines. Please keep in mind, the certification frenzy is largely a US force, therefore, you will have to look through mountains of raw coins in 2x2 holders to find most of these gems. They are not displayed at US coin shows with the ooomph that similar US coins are displayed.
Have you ever gone to FUN or one of the other large shows and looked at some of the world coins from dealers who specialize in such material? Do it and you will see colors that will knock you socks off and prices that will match it.
Think of it this way; what are the pieces that are likely to be found with exceptionally attractive toning and how were they stored? For US coins the quick answers are Morgan dollars, coinage from the 1940s and 1950s, brown pack Ikes, proof Indian Head cents and any coinage widely collected as a series and that had commercial albums made for it. So, many or most of the truly attractive Morgan dollars were taken from Mint burlap bags after decades of storage, the coinage from the 1940s and 1950s was nearly always obtained from the highly reactive US Mint Set envelopes, brown pack Ikes were all sold in US government provided packaging that was made up of plastic and cardboard and most of those were kept in that packaging for some time, proof Indian Head cents were stored in US Mint tissue or, for later dates, bought in large groups by several dealers and stored in Kraft envelopes and widely collected series stored in commercial albums often are stored in albums made before the mid-1970s. Looking at this list, what do these coins have in common, for the most part? Aside from the widely collected series, they are all either proof or mint state, there is no circulated coinage listed here. Also, many of the widely collected series were also saved in mint state, though not all. What else do they have in common? They were all stored in a manner such that they were exposed to high amounts of endogenous packaging sulfur. Please also keep in mind that most of these coins tone in a manner that is simply ugly or, at best, eye appeal neutral. Relatively few of these coins tone in a manner that is widely considered attractive or positive for eye appeal or price.
How about the world market? Well, the issues were generally of lower mintage to begin with for many of these coins. This cuts down the pool for individual coins. Also, with less disposable income and fewer coins available it was more likely a higher percentage of minted coins saw circulation and, once that occurs, flow lines are rapidly removed and this really prohibits most forms of deep toning in any colors other than dark grey, navy or auburn. Aside from the previous statement, I don't believe the types of cardboard holders that have been so popular among collectors in this country over the last seventy years were made, available or popular among collectors around the world for other coinage. Additionally, I don't see the same type of packaging historically present in the coinage from other nations. They weren't as likely to be issued in a sulfur-laden enivronment.
What are the world coins that I see with great toning? How about Maundy money, Canadian Mint Set coinage, Canadian Specimen Set coinage, European crown sized commemoratives, pedigreed coinage from older and complete collections and the odd coin that one finds here. What do these have in common? Sulfur impregnated holders that the coins were issued in. Maundy money was often stored in velvet lined holders and these coins are often dark but sometimes spectacularly toned, Canadian Mint Set coinage was sold, in the 1950s and 1960s, in cardboard holders that produce some of the wildest colors I have ever seen, Canadian Specimen Set coinage was also sold in a velvet enclosed box, European crown sized commemoratives were likewise issued or stored in this type of environment and, finally, older complete collections were well cared for in velvet or Kraft envelope storage many times. What else do these coins have in common? They are nearly all mint state or proof issues that saw no circulation.
There are no doubt other examples and will also be exceptions to the rule, so to speak. However, it is pretty clear that if you take the time to look instead of state then you will find some absolutely stunning and wild world coinage. The most wildly toned copper I own is Canadian, my best toned commemorative is a German crown sized coin, we have all likely seen those stunningly toned Canadian dollars from the Specimen Sets issued within the last thirty years, I have many gorgeously toned pieces from the Phillipines. Please keep in mind, the certification frenzy is largely a US force, therefore, you will have to look through mountains of raw coins in 2x2 holders to find most of these gems. They are not displayed at US coin shows with the ooomph that similar US coins are displayed.
Have you ever gone to FUN or one of the other large shows and looked at some of the world coins from dealers who specialize in such material? Do it and you will see colors that will knock you socks off and prices that will match it.
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Comments
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
Really glad that you started this thread. Very informative, well written.
I appreciate you taking the time and effort to share this with the forum.
Carl
Great post. Many people obviously don't know your love for toning, and why it occurs. I am fortunate to. (for that fact many people have no clue about me.)
World coins do come wildly toned, just not as frequent as their US counterparts.
Many of the reasons, but not all, have to do with the enviroment in which they were stored, the material in which they were stored, the amount of times they were cleaned (quite acceptable in European circles), and whether they were laquered early on in their existance.
Folks, this is not to slam, flame, or irratate anybody, but TOM KNOWS WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT.
But in the words of Dennis Miller: "That's just my opinion, I could be wrong."
njcoincrank
09/07/2006
I was so impressed with the spectacular incredible toning on both sides along with perfect MS 70 no marks at all surfaces. (At least thats how it looks to me)
I wish I could post a picture of it I still have it.
Wheweeee! and I paid a big bank busting $15.00 for it back then.
Here's a nicely toned 1863 Mexican 8 Reales. It was the impetus for the US Trade dollar.
And similarly, most of these went to the orient and were heavily circulated and chopmarked.
PCGS MS 65
Beautiful coin WWW.
Carl
09/07/2006
Thanks for pointing out where these colors came from. Don't know what I'm going to do with them if I win, but they sure are attractive.
Thanks for insight!
Michael
Come on over ... to The Dark Side!