PCGS under fire!
Bulldog
Posts: 779
Thank you Laura.
Bulldog
Bulldog
Proud to have fought for America, and to be an AMERICAN!
No good deed will go unpunished.
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No good deed will go unpunished.
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The only reason people are pointing to Laura is that she is on these forums. Walk a show and what Laura says is echoed by a LOT of dealers.
<< <i>Thank you Laura.
Bulldog >>
Not to be a jerk Bulldog but,What are we thanking her for.
<< <i>Laura is NOT responsible for any heat PCGS is taking. PCGS is responsible for the heat they are taking. >>
The heat has to come from somewhere. PCGS dosen't ask for heat.
Cameron Kiefer
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
Kind of like blaming the whistle blower for Enron. It wasn't Enron's fault, because they didn't ask for the heat. It's the whistle blowers fault.
Kill the messenger!!!
First of all, let me make it perfectly clear that neither myself nor Richard Melamed work for Heritage any longer. Richard has been gone for a year, and I have been gone for nearly three years.
I think that David makes some valid points here. Some dealers will complain no matter how you grade the coins, many "crack-out-artists" are simply gamblers hoping that the grading services screw up, and some of us actually know what we are doing. I think that the majority of people who really know what they are doing don't complain - they know that it does no good.
Recently, I did make a complaint to David, the only one I have ever made directly to him since becoming a PCGS authorized dealer. It concerned the results of grading at the last PCGS dealer invitational. My results were:
0 for 15 for crossover
0 for 4 for regrade/designation review
2 for 62 submitted raw, with 19 downgrades, including 3 two pointers!
The coins submitted were selected by Richard and myself. Didn't David just say we had "world class grading skills"?
The gist of David's reply to me was that what is or isn't undergraded is subjective and that he would be happy to take another look. Since I was properly disgusted at this point, I didn't take David up on his offer to take another look, so I cannot say what that result would have been. I did, however, take the three coins that I believed in the most and showed them to him at the FUN show. They went through the grading review process and all came back the same. All three coins subsequently graded a point higher at NGC, then two crossed to PCGS, and the third was never submitted for crossover as the customer prefers NGC.
I guess the point of all this rambling is that when two graders with "world class grading skills", who never complain, get these kind of results, perhaps PCGS should pay attention. Instead, I felt "blown-off"and patronized. But, hey, I'm a big boy. I break out a lot of coins and know the game.
In my opinion, PCGS has a problem and they are not addressing it. The argument that NGC is overgrading all the coins and that they don't meet PCGS standards is pure BS. I can't get a decent crossover rate, but I can break the coins out and get the same grade, so how are they overgraded? I'm a "world class grader", but my PQ+ coins are 1/3 downgrades? The truth is, if I had to rely on PCGS grading to make a living over the last few months, I would be a hurtin' kind of guy. Here's the best example I can make. Six months ago, I was spending approximately the same amount in grading fees per month at both PCGS and NGC. Today, I have 178 coins with a cost of $146,758 at PCGS for grading, crossover, etc. And, today I have 1380 coins with a cost of $1,290,816 at NGC. Why, when I can get more for many PCGS coins, would I do this? DUH!
So that's my two cents worth. Flame away, because I know that some of you hate us "crack-out artists".
-------------------------
Mike Storeim
Numismatic Professionals, LLC
So what's it gonna be? How about 100% disclosure of what's going on instead of the party line that "well, maybe we were tight one day at LB". Tell it to us straight so we can understand. If it's a reaction to coin doctoring, we'll support it. If it's a way to increase submissions, we'll flame it. But don't disrespect us by telling us that nothing's going on!
Michael
VERY revealing post. What thread is that in? Hopefully between it and this, David Hall will see it.
Russ, NCNE
PCGS cannot intimidate Laura into not speaking. I am quite proud of Joe O'Conner and Mike Storeim for speaking up. What they had to add took guts. I know of at least two more dealers that would say the same, but they won't for fear of retribution. That's sad, but a fact of life.
David: tell it to us straight. Do not disrespect us by feeding us the party line. Something is going on that we may or may not support if we had full disclosure. But we will always attack deception.
My main intent was to make light of an improper situation I experineced on the bourse floor at Long Beach and FUN. It DOES hurt the ENTIRE hobby when a market leader like PCGS acts irrationally or inconsitantly. I am sick and tired of them NOT crossing coins and then making comments of how they want all deserving coins in PCGS holders. I am tired of seeing coins that SHOULD be graded a certain grade get destroyed. My comments are NOT related to my poor 0-7 submissions at LB.
For the millionth time, I am a huge SUPPORTER of PCGS. I'm not out to destroy them, flame them or David Hall, or just complain about them. They are leading themselves and many more people into trouble. I felt someone had to say something. The issue I presented is VERY fixable. All they need to do is pay more attention to what they are doing.
Guess my PCGS dealer number won't be a lucky charm anytime soon!
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
Thank you for your responses. I like a David and Goliath story once in awhile!
Bulldog
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<< <i>Guess my PCGS dealer number won't be a lucky charm anytime soon! >>
Want to trade?
I have been saving up a few coins for grading and regrading (I think the current total is 182,437 give or take a few) and thought now might be a good time, especially if I could submit under your dealer number - what do you think?
I perhaps have given you credit for something you did not do (or did ya?). You seem to have a lot more balls thanyour esteemed male counterparts. They are hiding behind your words, hopeing for you to collect all the shrapnel. And they can reap the rewards, if any, from your efforts. Keep their names in a book, and don't ever let them forget their positions and cowardice.
I support you 100% Laura. And when the HOMERUN bully, starts out a thread with (before I lash out at miss know it all) or something like that. Must mean that you have his attention, and he was looking for us bad boys to back him up. He fell short! His little soldiers stayed home and read their greysheets!
I really thought that the Homerun Bully was more professional and had more class than this. I also thought that he was above alley fighting. Guess not!
Bulldog
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I have two complaints about that:
1) "coingu1" doesn't sound nearly as nice as "coinguy1" - "coingu1" sounds like goo!
2) If david does indeed like me, that could be a very good OR a very bad thing, depending upon the mood of this forum, any given minute on any given day.
I can't say that DH has been forth coming with exact info, maybe he'll be the next Senator out of California!
He has responded all week with generic threads and won't hit the head with the hammer. Respond to our problems first, post a poll with pertinet questions about CU and then answer them all at the end of the week in order of importance!!
NEVER LET HIPPO MOUTH OVERLOAD HUMMINGBIRD BUTT!!!
WORK HARDER!!!!
Millions on WELFARE depend on you!
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
In all seriousness, there are not enough hours in the day for him to answer all of the questions he receives. People should be understanding about that, whether they are upset or not.
Gotta love them Mercs
Actually, I'm not an eternal optimist at all. But, I do believe in fairness and it's not fair or realistic for people to think/expect that David will have the time or the inclination to answer all of their questions.
Lastly, in case you aren't already aware of it, (I bet you are, though, because, hopefully, you are smart enough to read every one of my posts
However, I think we both agree that post is pretty tough. The fact that it is in 5, or now 6, different threads and I'm sure more than a few people have made him aware of it, it seems rather obvious that he has chosen to ignore it. TDN feels he has seen it, as well.
Another point: How in the world can the CEO of a company, such as PCGS, sell coins? Seems like there might be quite a bit of conflict of interest. I know that he ain't Allen Greenspan, but I would think that the Homerunking would want to stay away from controversy. Anybody here think that Hall is providing the coin world a service by privately selling us coins? Not a chance.
Why would he want to compete with his dealer based customers in wholesaling coins on EBAY.
Makes no CENTS (sic) to me.
Bulldog
No good deed will go unpunished.
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Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Well, in the case of what you collect, the thing inside it would have 6 full steps if the insert said FS. Not so over here.
I care about consistency. I want my MS66 whatever to grade MS66 the first time, not the 5th time. I'm not an ATM card for PCGS.
jeeeeez. obviously, it's not about the coins. that's sad.
K S
Now maybe just maybe all of those people that are unable to have a balanced opinion about PCGS because of an unblinking loyalty due to a vested interested will seriously give some credence to what the dealers are saying rather then trying to find reasons to attack them. It wasn't just the dealers at FUN that were hot about the grading, but some very serious and knowlegeable collectors, some of whom are well respected here and have posted on the subject. Just maybe when your stock is in the tank, you ought to listen to your customers, naw that would make too much sense.
I should have started with this but, perhaps, we have lost something more important which is the friendships that have been strained over this.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Give them to me and I'll pre-screen them. Free of charge.
<< <i>Is it possible the masses flocking to NGC care more about what's on the slab then what's in it?
Leo >>
I have often wondered what course of action the grading companies would take or have they if and when, of course it has, due to the State quarters and other hype, would they loosen the grading standards to churn out the slabs to meet public demand or tighten the standards to possibly raise
the value of coins already in slabs and our collections.
I can see two scenarios here, the mass production of slabs with little or no value coins and then we have those slabs with the expensive rare coins. Are the standards being kept tight for the rare coins and not for the cheap coins for mass production.
I guess the real question here is, what stragedies are taking place to keep that steady flow of plastic
moving out the door to satisfy the investors and stockholders but yet hold the respect of hardcore collector's interest.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
moving out the door to satisfy the investors and stockholders but yet hold the respect of hardcore collector's interest.
That's the issue that is at the heart of this matter. Look for the answer to that question and all others will be answered as well. Ask what are the motives behind these actions? The grading consistency is a symptom of the problem, not the actual problem. Ask why there is a lack of consistency, who does it benefit, why is it being done? Those answers are all found in Leo's statement. Bravo.
Michael
<< <i>
<< <i>Is it possible the masses flocking to NGC care more about what's on the slab then what's in it?
Leo >>
I have often wondered what course of action the grading companies would take or have they if and when, of course it has, due to the State quarters and other hype, would they loosen the grading standards to churn out the slabs to meet public demand or tighten the standards to possibly raise
the value of coins already in slabs and our collections.
I can see two scenarios here, the mass production of slabs with little or no value coins and then we have those slabs with the expensive rare coins. Are the standards being kept tight for the rare coins and not for the cheap coins for mass production.
I guess the real question here is, what stragedies are taking place to keep that steady flow of plastic
moving out the door to satisfy the investors and stockholders but yet hold the respect of hardcore collector's interest.
Leo >>
Is it possible that the market has reached a temporary peak for many of the coins
which have been bringing higher prices and market grading is merely a reflection
of this reality?
<< <i>
<< <i>Is it possible the masses flocking to NGC care more about what's on the slab then what's in it?
Leo >>
I have often wondered what course of action the grading companies would take or have they if and when, of course it has, due to the State quarters and other hype, would they loosen the grading standards to churn out the slabs to meet public demand or tighten the standards to possibly raise
the value of coins already in slabs and our collections.
I can see two scenarios here, the mass production of slabs with little or no value coins and then we have those slabs with the expensive rare coins. Are the standards being kept tight for the rare coins and not for the cheap coins for mass production.
I guess the real question here is, what stragedies are taking place to keep that steady flow of plastic
moving out the door to satisfy the investors and stockholders but yet hold the respect of hardcore collector's interest.
Leo >>
<< <i>I guess the real question here is, what stragedies are taking place to keep that steady flow of plastic
moving out the door to satisfy the investors and stockholders but yet hold the respect of hardcore collector's interest.
That's the issue that is at the heart of this matter. Look for the answer to that question and all others will be answered as well. Ask what are the motives behind these actions? The grading consistency is a symptom of the problem, not the actual problem. Ask why there is a lack of consistency, who does it benefit, why is it being done? Those answers are all found in Leo's statement. Bravo.
Michael >>
Perhaps, it's time to sell?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>Just the fact that some here have mentioned that dealers "ARE AFRAID OF RETRIBUTION" tells me what I have feared all along that PCGS (and probably the other third party grading companies too) in some cases show favoritism to certain dealers. This is not something that has just surfaced, it is a long standing problem. When I submitted my first (14) coins over a year ago and only three ended up in plastic (other than a bag) I knew there was problems. I have coins I need certified right now and know not what to do. I think they are all crooks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >>
I'm confused here. You speak of retribution. Yesterday, before tradedollarnut edited all of his posts, he had said that he didn't think Legend could ever submit to PCGS again.
The reason for my confusion is this. Months ago, lots of people talked about how no one in the grading room at PCGS knew the identity of the collector/dealer submitting the coin(s).
If no one in the grading room knows the identity of the collector/dealer submitting the coin, then how can their be any retribution? Do we have to worry about our coins if we say something bad here? Help.
but in the light of reality they were, they are and will be.
It is the easiest of things to note who, what and when
and the dealers all know this. they all fear this. And with
some exceptions, are gutless cowards of the most yellow of natures.
Camelot
Camelot