What compells Sellers to mis-describe thier coins ?

Fairlaneman · March 6, 2003 4:19AM

A week ago I bought what was described as a 1920P and 1923P pair of coins on Ebay (Mercs). These were described as XF coins and the look seemed OK in the auction. In fact I thought they were very conservativly graded.

Well the coins arrive and the 20P is a MS or AU coin that has been cleaned so harshly it almost makes you gag. If I had wanted a Cleaned MS/AU I would have bid on a item like that. What the heck compells sellers to dream up these descriptions they give the general public ? Have they no friggin moral values or are they just plain stupid when it comes to grading coins ? I suppose some other motive could also be the answer. Money at any expense.

BTW. I kept the coins because the seller instead of sending a 23P sent a 23S nice XF/AU coin. IMO why should I tell him of his mistake when he could not mention that the 20P had been Harshly Cleaned. A Eye for a Eye IMO.

Ken

goose3 · March 6, 2003 4:21AM

Probably a combination of wishful thinking, money, and stupidity or any one of those 3.

coppercoins · March 6, 2003 4:22AM

I think a bit of thought may be in order - I don't know you or the seller - it could be possible that they don't know how to detect a cleaned coin, and thought they did you right. For someone to sell an "S" as a "D" brings this possibility closer to probability. Remember, there's no coin knowledge license to sell on eBay....but that wouldn't be a bad idea.

redhott · March 6, 2003 4:24AM

Unfortunately, there are some sellers who buy uncleaned coins and spend hours a week cleaning them because they know they can get their regular buyers to overbid on that "look."

jeffnpcb · March 6, 2003 4:30AM

Raw coins are the toughest to tell the quality. Even harder is to make those distinctions on a monitor. Cameras, scanners and other dupes may be used. I have a tough time trying to make that decision, but if I think twice, I don't bid. It is best to have the coin in hand on raw issues. {no pun intended}

Cleaned or whizzed silver is one tough cookie. It scans and takes pictures well enough not to be sure!!

dorkkarl · March 6, 2003 4:38AM

do not buy coins sight-unseen. it is the most basic principle of collecting coins. the problem is NOT w/ the seller.

K S

BillJones · March 6, 2003 4:43AM

What the heck compells sellers to dream up these descriptions they give the general public ?

That famed 5-letter word, GREED!

GIMME A G!

GIMME AN R!

GIMME AN E!

GIMME AN E!

GIMME A D!

What 've got? G-R-E-E-D!
GIMME A G!

wingedliberty · March 6, 2003 4:47AM

Ken:
They are motivated by greed. Shame!!

Brian

stujoe · March 6, 2003 4:48AM

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

bulloncoins · March 6, 2003 4:53AM

Karma always comes back to you.

If he ripped you off, on purpose .... he will pay.

And the other side of that coin (punn intended)....

If you ripp him off on purpose, you will pay.

Just something to think about.

DCAMFranklin · March 6, 2003 5:04AM

LOTS of sellers on Ebay wouldn't know a cleaned coin if you showed it to them. Even when you point out the marks of the cleaning, they can't recognize it.

Others are just trying to rip you off.

Fairlaneman · March 6, 2003 6:55AM

Darn it Karl !!

Just what in the heck are folks out in the sticks suppose to do ? Give up the Hobby ? No Way. I was not complaining about the purchase but was complaining about sellers that do not have the balls to describe thier coins correctly. I can live with the two dimes that cost $14.30 delivered.

Now on to reading the rest of the Posts to this.

Ken

sinin1 · March 6, 2003 7:12AM

Are you complaining because the seller did not know what he had?

If you got a 1923-S XF/AU for $14, throw the 1920 away (or sell it as a harshly cleaned MS coin), and have a big smile on your face and check that sellers auctions every week to see what other bargains can be had.

I bought a 'nicely toned Merc dime' - paid them $2.05 with paypal (they charged 80 cents shipping) - they sent me the coin, and a bonus Mercury dime as well. After they paid eBay, Paypal, USPS - they got about melt.

I love the coin, probably would have paid $30+ if I saw it in person - MS with nice peripheral orange/yellow/green and on the reverse light purple in the center. Lovely luster and probably FB. I probably will send it in and see what kind of grade it gets.

I will not complain that they had a cool coin and did not know how good it was, in fact, I have been bidding on their stuff since just to bring it up to fair price.

Greed causes people to overgrade/lie - lack of knowledge causes people to undergrade or forget mintmarks.

ARCO · March 6, 2003 7:32AM

Money, money, money and a shi*load of GALL!! Everytime I buy an obviously cleaned, scrubbed, hairlined coin from an experienced seller or dealer that didn't disclose the fact I feel like buying a plane ticket, and meeting the person and shoving the coin in their friggin Ear. God what a waste of time, for such a simple thing as saying "coin looks nice, has great original toning, but alas has some light hairlines, or has possibly been cleaned"

Then I can avoid the coin altogether or discount my price to reflective a piece of turd coin. Yes I hate it too!! Especially since any nincompoop knows what a damn obvious hairline looks like, especially a dealer in coins!

Just got a coin from an internet site, that has hairlines all over the face glaring as hell and nothing was said in the description, so naturally this is a way to vent my frustration at a frequent occurance. Now I must write in bold every seller on every coin for sale. DOES THIS COIN HAVE HAIRLINES?!

Tyler

Fairlaneman · March 6, 2003 7:40AM

Tyler:

Ah a straight to the point post. Maybe I should have started this thread with your straight forwardness.

Yep shove it in thier Ear.....I really like that.

Ken

keets · March 6, 2003 7:57AM

hey ken

two things come to mind. do onto others as you'd have them do unto you and two wrongs don't make a right. as bullioncoins pointed out, things generally end up even in the long run, so if your conscience allows you to accept his error because you believe he misrepresented his items, i guess it's OK.

truthfully, you feel one justifies the other or at least hope it does. what a sticky-wicket!!! what will you do and why? that's your choice.

to the thread question, maybe ignorance, maybe greed. have you asked the seller??

al h.

Fairlaneman · March 6, 2003 8:07AM

Come on Al lets not turn this to a thread of my moral values.

So here is my answer. If the 20P would have been anything close to the description you bet your ass I would have got ahold of the seller. Seems how the seller could not be Truthful with me, whether he knew better or not which if he did not he should not be selling coins, why should I be truthful with him ? Its not like I'm taking the guy to the cleaners on a $500 dollar mistake he made. Heck if I see this correctly the 23S is worth $25 maybe $30 if I went to sell it.

JMHO as always.

Ken

satootoko · March 6, 2003 8:26AM

<< <i>Everytime I buy an obviously cleaned, scrubbed, hairlined coin from an experienced seller or dealer >>

The point is that there are a lot of unexperienced sellers (and even self-syled "dealers") selling on E-Bay, who don't have a clue, and really think they are selling good stuff.

<< <i>DOES THIS COIN HAVE HAIRLINES? >>

There are a whole bunch of sellers who would say yes about their Kennedys and no about their Franklins because they don't know what the he** you are asking.

keets · March 6, 2003 8:48AM

eGad's. me advocate moral value?!?! next i'll advocate paying attention to what DK says!!!

al h.

UncleJoe · March 6, 2003 8:53AM

I had to look twice, I thought D.H. posted this:

whether he knew better or not which if he did not he should not be selling coins,

But according to D.H. only 20 or so people are then "qualified' to sell coins.

This is eBay. You know that going in. There are many crooks but there are also a lot of individuals doing this for fun that don't have a lot of expertise when it comes to coins.

Joe.

dorkkarl · March 6, 2003 9:01AM

<< <i>What the heck compells sellers to dream up these descriptions they give the general public ? >>

listen to yourselves!

"Money at any expense"

"That famed 5-letter word, GREED"

"They are motivated by greed. Shame!!"

"$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$"

"Money, money, money"

are you all being for real???

<< <i>Darn it Karl !! Just what in the heck are folks out in the sticks suppose to do ? Give up the Hobby ? No Way. I was not complaining about the purchase but was complaining about sellers that do not have the balls to describe thier coins correctly >>

fairlaneman, i am sorry to say this, but YOU were motivated by greed in this situation, & you as much as admitted it. what did you write? here it is:

These were described as XF coins and the look seemed OK in the auction. In fact I thought they were very conservativly graded in other words, you thought you were getting something nice w/out having to pay a nice price for it. that is not greed? paying less than retail for something? you could just as well open to any of a number of reputable dealers advertising in coin-world, order such a coin, & return it based on their return policy. sure, you might have to pay trends or retail for it, but such is life. you want something, you ought to pay for it fair & square.

dude, not trying to be a jerk, not trying to accuse you of something, just trying to point out that there are 2 ways of looking at it. greed was at play here, but it was not by just 1 of the parties involved. the PEOPLE involved are not bad, their actions were.

K S

stujoe · March 6, 2003 9:19AM

In most scams there is greed or $$$$$$$$ or money or whatever on both sides in order for it to be a successful scam.

Fairlaneman · March 6, 2003 9:24AM

Karl just because I ended up paying only what was paid does not mean more would not have been paid if other bidders would have participated. I really believe the American way of commerce was began on the barter system. In my mind I see no reason to pay top price for everything. Do You ? Its not greed but in my estimation just being a little thrifty. Maybe some of the politicians should learn a little of this thriftness also.

The summation is paying attention to what you are buying and later on you will be able to buy more. Now if you want to pay top price for everything, go ahead, and No One will ever call you Greedy. Sorry I just will not pay top price for all things. I'm Greedy !!!

BTW. I am sure every time you see something a little better than described you always point it out. Correct or Incorrect ?

Couple of Smiles for you.

??

Ken

dorkkarl · March 6, 2003 10:29PM

hey, fairlaneman, ok, "greed" was to strong a word. but i think you were looking for a "good" deal, right? that's great! the american way, & it's a good thing! the point though, is that you violated the sight-unseen principle, ie. you took a gamble, & must be willing to live w/ the consequences.

there are delaers on ebay who offer money-back if not satisfied, & that qualifies as sight-seen. there are also dealers in coin-world who charge less than retail. those are options if you live "in the sticks". i have to drive 3 hours either direction to hit a major metro area, too!

bottom line: i'm not trying to hurl stones at ya. except for the concept of "grading", the single most-abused principle in numismatics is "do not buy coins sight-unseen" (in my worthless opinion).

from what i see of your posts, your a good guy in my book, i wish you only the best!

K S

What compells Sellers to mis-describe thier coins ?

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