1801 half dollar: guess the grade

Baley

a scarce coin in any grade, the elusive 1801 half dollar:




currently in a SEGS holder, what do you think they gave it?

also, opinions as to an appropriate "net" grade?

BillJones

I'd much sooner send it to ANACS. They would net grade it, and collectors would be more apt to agree with their opinion. I just had a 1909-S-VDB that had been whizzed slabbed by ANACS, and it sold to a dealer instantly. If it had been in SEGS holder, I think I still would be owning it.

I can't sell the SEGS product. When I buy SEGS coins I usually buy them to crack out and sell raw.

Baley

Hi Bill,
I didn't send it out, I bought it in the current SEGS holder. I did pay less than the going rate for what is printed on the holder, because I used my own net grade opinion, and I do like their holder's look and feel, but perhaps you're right, when the time comes to sell it, ANACS would give it, what, in your opinion?

Dog97

I'd just call it a VF with damage and not worry about the net. But since you asked; VG10? Unless you plan on selling it I see no problem with the present holder.

banknote1

The deep scratches just don't do it for me. I guess I would say net Fine15. SEGS graded the coin EF40, IMO.

Cam40

I think its EF45 .
The reverse is very weakly struck.
Notice the areas not as worn looking.
Can you explain the very uneven wear patterns if its not poorly struck?..er pressed.Thats a more accurate term.

I,m saying,it may not be as worn as it appears.

Baley

yes, the reverse detail is uneven, due to either worn dies or uneven strike, probably a combination, most other 1801s I have seen were also weak in the upper right. A rarer variety uses the reverse of 1802 and has neither this weakness nor the lumps near the N.

I'd like to form a consensus on this coin, as to
A: what's likely printed on the SEGS slab, and
B: the coin's actual detail and net grades, in your opinion.

As for the scratches, yes of course I'd prefer they were not there, but like them better than if the coin were holed/plugged, cleaned, face or big rim cut, or lots of other problems these come with.

Also, please post pics of your early half dollars!

Baley

SEGS in my opinion offers a more attractive holder than ANACS.

SEGS holders are standard size, smooth, have the label on the top, and descriptive comments.

ANACS are ok for smaller coins, but I dont like them for anything larger than a quarter. they seem kind of cheap, and I don't care for the logotype.

coinkat

The coin would be net graded by ANACs perhaps to a F12 or 15. Great detail, good looking obverse except for the scratches. The obverse would probably go ef40 possibly 45 if there are signs of some lustre. Unfortunately, the coin suffers from an uneven strike which doesn't help matters. The reverse grade is probably in the VF range. Overall, its still an attractive coin and as bad as I've seen considering how tough original circulated examples of this date are to find. Thanks for sharing a picture

braddick

Larry Briggs is good with these worn Classic coins.
I'd guess the coin is in a FN12 or FN15 holder with the scratches denoted (might even state 'damaged' although I doubt it).

I like it. It's not (heavily) cleaned and the scratches are old (smooth from wear).
I'd take it over one with a filled/repaired hole any day.

Is it for sale?
(PM if so.)

braddick

Actually, if I may be allowed to do so and after looking again at your images- I'm going with a full VF20 on the insert.

Baley

this being my only 1801 half dollar is not for sale until I obtain a better example, thanks for the comments though!

it took very long to even find this one! still looking for an 1802, very tough coin!

OK! I will reveal that the holder states: Obverse/Reverse/Scratches and they gave it VF (something)

any more guesses as to SEGS opinion or your own opinions as to the net grade?

also, still seeking to view images of any 1801-1807 half dollars and even better, if someone has a small eagle half dollar from 1796 or 1797, Pleeeease post a pic!

BillJones

I'd grade it VF sharpness, net graded to Fine-12. I don't think they would give it a F-15 because of the weakness on the reverse.

braddick

Bill- it's one area I kind of like about SEGS. They don't bump down hard for problems but instead denote the grade on the insert along with the problem(s) and let you decide what the net (value) should be.

BillJones

I’ll agree that’s one feature that some might like about SEGS, but at least on some of the coins they slabbed early on they went overboard with the descriptions. Some of the negatives weren’t really necessary and as dealer and as a potential owner it made it really hard to sell the coin. Of late I’ve not seen as many of those comments on the SEGS holders.

Nysoto

Your coin is an 1801 O-101, which is rated an R.3 per Overton 3rd edition (201-500 survivors). The other variety for the year, O-102, is an R.4 (81-200). Check out the current Bowers and Merena auction, there are three 1801 102's in F12, XF45, and PCGS XF45!

I like your coin even with the scratches, definately scarce for the variety and date. VF25 details, net VG10 for pricing. SEGS estimate is VF35. Crack her out and leave her raw

Baley

yes, it's an 0-101. I obviously think you guys are right on about it's approximate value, I also think it nets VG+ to Fine, and was willing to pay Fine money, mostly because the few other "Fine"s I have seen looked like cr@p compared to this coin, and full VF or EF was a little beyond my budget for filling this hole in my collection. that said, i do think it's a lot of coin for the cost of a Fine, and the obverse detail partly makes up for the scratches.

on early type, we often see scratches that are not in the form of initials like graffitti, but rather resemble "test marks" where someone scratched the coin to see the unique luster that silver displays when scratched, to determine if it was genuine silver before accepting it for payment. such "battle scars" in my opinion detract far less from the value (at least to me) than other damage such as holes, cleaning, and grafitti, if only because they are a part of the coin's history as it was used for it's intended purpose, for commerce at a time in our history when many different types of coins were legal tender.

the thing about shopping for a scarce coin, you don't have the luxury to look at tens or hundreds that are currently for sale, and choose the one you want. Instead, you are very occasionally presented with an opportunity to purchase one, and you have to decide, do you want this coin right now, or not? and if not, then you go on waiting...

As for the SEGS grade, well, they were more conservative than generally given credit for!

BillJones

If you are only looking for early type, you could go for an 1806 or 1807 and get a higher grade. These dates tend to come with shallow strikes so you might consider an 1805. Still a bird in the hand is worth, well you know....

It's also the first year of the type, which means something to some people, although I always looked for the highest grade I could afford.

NumisEd

Baley,

Awesome coin. Where did you find it? Dealer, ebay?

Baley

Hi Bill, I am collecting the draped bust half dollars by date and major (redbook) variety.

So far I've got the 1807, 1806 knob/stem, 1805, 1805/4, 1803 large3, 1803 small3, and 1801 (this coin)

I'm going for mid circulated grades VG through VF and budgeting around $500 per coin. Half are raw, but the 1807 is in a PCGS holder and the 5/4 is slabbed by NTC It's a nice coin though, and they were only "optimistic" by 5 points, in my opinion.

By the way, the 1801 is in a SEGS VF 20 holder, obverse/reverse scratches noted as is the O-101

VF20! not as liberal as most on here originally guessed they would be... and the holder is attractive!

BillJones

Hi Baley,

You are correct in your assumption that this is probably the best looking 1801 half dollar that you will be able to for $500. Most of the coins in that range look like something that you cat leaves by your backdoor as a “gift.” Most anything that looks nice is going to carry with it a price that could go into orbit. At one time I thought that this coin was a little under appreciated. Now I think it’s getting a bit OVER appreciated.

I’ve been doing about the same thing as you have been doing with the early half dimes. I’ve been collecting them by Red Book variety for the last 30 years. I also collected the Draped Bust half cents by die (Cohen) varieties at one time. I gave up on that when I saw that one of the four varieties I didn’t have would have cost me over $7 grand for a ground salvage piece.

Here’s my “little half dime sister” to your 1801. This coin is as tough as the 1801 half dollar. This coin is a PCGS EF-45. It's a late die state, and I think it's really an AU-55.

NumisEd

I didn't see where Baley said he paid $500 for the 1801 half. I would pay that in a heart beat for his scratched VF. I am sure that it cost a lot more than $500.

BillJones

He wrote that he is budgeting about $500 a coin. Maybe he paid $300 for one and is paying $700 for this. I'm just going on the previous statement.

dorkkarl

did you say $500? that's a RIP for the coin. net-grades? baloney! IT'S AN 1801 HALF!!!

imo, vf++/vf details, scratches, net VF-20. these just don't fall out of trees. i would value at $650+

i have had the honor of owning several 1801's & 1802's over the years, & have mine tucked safely away.

BTW, retail guides are way behind the true market for a problem-free '01, '02. just try & buy 1 at trends - if you can find 1.

K S

BillJones

No! dorkkarl. We are talking about SEGS here. Their VF-20 does not impress anyone.

I've found it hard to sell coins in those holders. I'd sooner offer a coin raw than sell in in a SEGS holder. It might sell faster.

Baley

heh, when the time comes to sell, I'll be sure to break it out of the SEGS holder and offer it as a EF/VF with light hairlines

AWESOME half dime, Bill, the littlest coins are by far the toughest!

have a great weekend you guys, see you Sunday

Baley

dorkkarl and anyone else who has one, I'd still be interested in seeing any pictures of your 1796, 1797, or 1801-1803 half dollars you might have (as well as any other draped bust coins ) thanks!

jadecoin

Hi! Here's an image of an 1803 Draped Bust Half that barely grades EF-40, in my opinion. In fact, it really grades only VF-35, but I think the market is ahead of the price guides on coins like this, so we have it priced a bit strongly.

At one time last year, we had four 1801's and three 1802's (all uncertified) in stock due to several fortunate purchases. They were all sold within the span of three shows.

To avoid a conflict, this coin is not for sale to forum members for a period of 20 days from this post. Thanks.

- jadecoins

Baley

I notice jadecoin has many many beautiful bust half dollars, including both varieties of the 1801 and an 1802. Many of your capped coins are gorgeous! wow nice inventory, may have to raise some dough!

dorkkarl

i stand by my previous comments. i'd value the segs coin as vf. these dates (01,02) are abusrdly hard to find right now. amazing that jade would have THREE in stock! don't underestimate 03 either.

K S

Baley

these dates (01,02) are abusrdly hard to find right now

I've been looking for the right '02 for a couple of years now.
they're all either ugly or absurdly expensive.
I can't believe I can't find an attractive, affordable example.

courtesy of jadecoin, here's an excellent O-102:

lordmarcovan

Looks nice aside from the scratches, and I'd've taken those for adjustment marks at first glance.

roadrunner

In 1976 I owned a strong XF45 1802 half with great detail. Paid all of $550 for it. Didn't own it more than a year or two. Those were the days.

roadrunner

Baley

roadrunner, the coin you describe would be a bargain at 10x that price today, dont know the compounded annual return of top of head but sounds pretty healthy.
$550 wont even get you a Fine these days. they aren't around.

dorkkarl

that's an astonishing 1801 half - so original & problem-free! hadn't seen that on their website. they must have picked it up recently.

i'd guess vf-25, but value well above that, trends don't mean diddly on these coins

K S

i see that they graded it "vf-20+", which sounds right. i also see they are asking way above retail - & it's still a reasonable price!

jadecoin

Hi Baley! Here's a new pic of the '02:

Ex-ANACS-30, which is a solid grade.

Baley

Wow, great coin, great pictures! I really, really like that coin (and all of your inventory), thanks for the post!

Baley

anyone else miss jadecoin?

Gemini

Yes I miss everybody...show more coins...show more coins.

Baley

show more coins.



maybe others who have DB halves will
show more coins.
I know some of you collect these too.

lordmarcovan

Baley

looks like they made your obverse die in 1805 or 1806, and just punched in the 180 , leaving the final digit blank

then in 1807, the 7 was put on, but by then they had different numeral punches, slightly smaller.

lordmarcovan

Interesting.

I had to brighten the picture (which is not my scan but a composite of the seller's obverse and reverse pics). This gave the coin an unnatural greenish color. The coin is a nice original grey and except for the rim bump at 8:00 on the obverse and the small hit in front Liberty's mouth, I think it's a good looking piece for a Fine.

The only other one I've ever owned was also a midgrade example:



I love the type, and think they are a good value for the money, considering how much more expensive the smaller Draped/H.E. silver coins can be, not to mention the dollars.

lordmarcovan

Oh. I forgot I have a holed one now... got it at the Charlotte ANA show this spring- for a song!

Lower left corner in this sampling from the Holey Coin Vest. I think it's an 1806.

Placid

15

Baley

For comparison

what do you all think of the above coin? Fine detail, net graded by PCGS to VG for an old and fairly harsh cleaning?

DennisH

VF30 details, net Fine-12