Hypocrites Vs. Investors

bulloncoins

I am sick of reading these post of collectors vs. dealers. I have never (yet) sold a coin. I collect ASE's because I love them, but rest assured I never bought one coin thinking.."Oh well, this is way overpriced, and even if I spend lots of money on it that I will never see again, I'll be sooooo happy just to own it."

Bull***t! Anyone who collects a coin in a slab does so in hopes that that coin will increase in, or at least hold its value. Other wise we would only collect raw coins, or maybe rocks.

I hope to leave the coins to my neice and nephew. I am trying my best to collect something that will have a value in it for them in 20 or 30 years down the road.....

Does that mean I can not enjoy my coins now?....Hell no. I look at them almost everyday. I consider myself a collector, but I also seek an investment in my collecting.

I didn't come here to ask you all what I should collect. I started collecting what I liked. I don't care if you don't like my choice. I don't like a lot of the coins that some of you collect, but I don't trash you for collecting them.

When I ask questions about the value of my coins, I am trying to get a better idea of what is going on in the market place. Is this a good time to buy, or should I hold off in hopes that prices will go down on these coins? I seek knowledge, not assurance.

Unless you are buying coins with money that you would just as soon throw in the street, than you are making an investment. If you think otherwise you are a hypocrite.

RegistryCoin

You have to be clueless about values to be a true collector, with no look to the future. Otherwise you are an investor.
You can't change the series you collect, if you sell the original for a profit, either. That would make you a dealer.
The whole notion of pigeon-holing collectors as EITHER "true collectors" OR "investors" is inane and senseless.

CarlWohlforth

Are you are buying coins hoping to sell them later for the same money or more? It sounds like it. I have some advice. Try selling one or two now.

When I first tried to sell a few extras from my collection my eyes were opened. I learned much more when I tried selling than I did from buying. It is harder to get someone to agree with your assesment of the coin and to get them to pay full retail like you did.

When I go to an expensive concert or vacation I sometimes buy a T shirt as a souvenier. I don't check the label to see if it is high quality %100 cotton at a bargain price. I expect to blow $20 for fun. Some people buy spoons, some buy coins.

But when you expect to make money, or at least not lose money, you are playing a different ball game. If that is the case I do suggest trying to sell one or two coins now. It is sad to hear about families who inherit coins they thought were valuable only to find out that bullion is only worth the price of the metal and common date, circulated Morgans are worth less than $10.

BillJones

I hope to leave the coins to my neice and nephew. I am trying my best to collect something that will have a value in it for them in 20 or 30 years down the road.....

If you want to leave your neice and nephew something of value, I would advise you to purchase most coins in slabs. In your case, if American sivler eagles are the only thing that you collect, then that may not be necessary because slabs do not enhance the value of those coins in the current market.

For other coins, your niece and nephew will have hard time selling the collection at fair money if they don't know anything about coins. If the coins are slabbed by a major firm at least that will give the a base from which to work. Will the same slab companies still have the influence in the market that they now have? No one knows. All I can tell you is that non-collectors are at the mercy of the buyers if they don't even have a reconized state of preservation from which to work.

I don't have any problems with what you collect. I think that ASEs are handsome coins, but I have not chosen to place very many of them in my collection. I only have problems with people who put them into MS-69 slabs, charge 4 times what they are worth, and crow to skies that they are a "great investment" at that price. IMO they not great investments at over nflated prices.

bulloncoins

<< <i>Are you are buying coins hoping to sell them later for the same money or more? It sounds like it. I have some advice. Try selling one or two now. >>



No, as I stated ealier....I plan to leave them as an inheritance. I have no plans to sell these coins in my lifetime.



<< <i>When I first tried to sell a few extras from my collection my eyes were opened. I learned much more when I tried selling than I did from buying. It is harder to get someone to agree with your assesment of the coin and to get them to pay full retail like you did. >>



I did not pay retail value on any slabbed coins purchased. So far, I have paid only .59% of their retail values.



<< <i>When I go to an expensive concert or vacation I sometimes buy a T shirt as a souvenier. I don't check the label to see if it is high quality %100 cotton at a bargain price. I expect to blow $20 for fun. Some people buy spoons, some buy coins. >>



True....and this is a small investment into their happiness.....And they retain their coins, spoons, and t-shirts......{ie. slabed coins} vs. their memories alone {ie. rocks}



<< <i>But when you expect to make money, or at least not lose money, you are playing a different ball game. If that is the case I do suggest trying to sell one or two coins now. It is sad to hear about families who inherit coins they thought were valuable only to find out that bullion is only worth the price of the metal and common date, circulated Morgans are worth less than $10. >>



I would hope to be able to share this collection with them as they grow, to teach them its value and the value of investing, and to share with them the joys of collecting coins. I also feel that silver bullion is somewhat underpriced, and also purchase raw unslabbed coins. I keep these in airtites. Maybe if I ever trust my own grading skills, someday I'll look them over for something to submitt to PCGS, but I'm sure this was done by the wholesaler from which the "Frist Strikes" were purchased.

JoyofCollecting

<< <i> Unless you are buying coins with money that you would just as soon throw in the street, than you are making an investment. If you think otherwise you are a hypocrite. >>



If you are putting any money into coins as an investment, you really can do much better elsewhere and you should look at the money spent as being invested in a leisure activity much like golf or fishing. There have been numerous empirical studies published in the Gobrecht Journal about the change in coin values over many decades. All of these studies conclude that even for very rare coins; price increases that consistently exceed the equity markets are generational changes.....not increases that occur over a couple of decades.

Yes, you can get lucky in coins. And, you can get lucky in other investments too....Microsoft? Dell? But when comparing the broader rare (and I do mean rare..not common) coin market to the broader equity market.....the coin market consistently loses. Again, this is based upon empirical comparisons over many decades.

So, yes....I collect for the Joy of Collecting and count the money spent like I would golf trips or Alaskan cruises. But instead of having pictures to look at fifty years from now, my grandkids will get to hold the coins in their hands. I think that part is kind of neat.

Take care.

kranky

Unless you are buying coins with money that you would just as soon throw in the street, than you are making an investment. If you think otherwise you are a hypocrite.

Can't agree with that. I don't want to throw my money in the street, for sure. Yet, I am fully aware that if I buy a coin today and sell it tomorrow, I might get 60 cents on the dollar. I might do better, but I surely wouldn't count on getting all my money back out of my collection.

If I was smart, I would have bought some 1936-50 proof coins before they skyrocketed in value. But I didn't have the money then. I have some money now, and I bought a couple. I probably bought at the peak <g>, but I do find value in being able to enjoy the coins while I own them. So if they drop by 50% down the road, so be it.

If I was afraid to lose money on a coin I wouldn't buy any. In fact, that's exactly what I did from 1990-2000. I couldn't afford the risk then.

LucyBop

Bulloncoins, you speak for yourself! I collect slabs coins for the Registry set and I have no regard for their increasing in value and I am no hypocrite! If you don't like it or believe it, then too bad!

bulloncoins

<< <i>If I was afraid to lose money on a coin I wouldn't buy any. In fact, that's exactly what I did from 1990-2000. I couldn't afford the risk then. >>



I know that any investment can loose money. Let me make this clear.....It is a gamble not a sure thing. I love the art of the ASE. I can afford to buy the ASE now in HOPES that it will rise in value through the years. I fully understand it may not. I like the idea of a hard asset (silver) to balance out other investments.

JoyofCollecting

Kranky and Lucy:

I really think there are more of us than a lot of folks realize. Something to ponder:

If all of the almost-pure investors left the market; the value of our collections would go down to almost nothing......but then we could complete all of our series and probably many more. That's something I could go for.

LucyBop

My coin collection could totally crash in value and it wouldn't hurt my well being, I am finacially set for life.... I love the coins (Frankies) and I am very picky as to the ones I'll call, the HepKitty Collection....

bulloncoins

Lucy dear,

The registry is a compition of sorts...and as such requires an investment. Are you telling me you take the time to work on your registry, but you do not care how it compares to others? I'm sorry, but I don't see the point.

And I know hypocrite is a strong word...It is leveled at the thought...not the person. Please don't take this forum conversation as an insult.

LucyBop

I don't care if you dont see the point or not, I am not in it for the money, I dont have to work a day for the rest of my life, I am in it cause I love my coins..... I am not out to have the best set, I am out to have what pleases me.....

bulloncoins

<< <i>I don't care if you dont see the point or not, I am not in it for the money, I dont have to work a day for the rest of my life, I am in it cause I love my coins..... I am not out to have the best set, I am out to have what pleases me..... >>



Ok kiddo...You win. But I feel that you are an exception in more ways than one.

Bear

Methinks I shall write a book, titles THE HYPOCRITICAL GUIDE TO COIN INVESTING. Any

time money is spent on coins, some concern must always be focused on the following issues:

Is the grade correct

Is the coin pleasing to the eye for the grade

Is the price reasonable and realistic

Does the coin have a reasonable potential for price appreciation in the future

Do I really like the coin.

the coin free from such defects on the surface
that would cause deterioration in future years

JoyofCollecting

Bear:

First of all, I always love your posts. But, just about everything you mentioned could be said about a cruise:

1. Is the cruise going to be enjoyable?
2. Is the cruise company financially secure?
3. Is the cruise a reasonable price compared to other cruise options?
4. Six months after I've completed the cruise...will I still think it was a good idea?
5. Is the ship in good shape and likely go give me full enjoyment?

But..in my humble opinion...it is an investment in pleasure...not an investment to create more wealth and buy other pleasures. I think this is the same for many coin collectors. They care about value and quality the same way they care about the value and quality of a cruise. It doesn't matter whether you have all the money in the world or whether you have very little. Or, whether you're investing in pleasure or assets...everyone wants to maximize value when buying something. I don't think wanting to maximize value when buying something makes that something a financial investment.

Thanks again for all of your insightful posts every day!!

Bear

Perhaps it is my bussiness background, but when I put money of any size into coins, I want enjoyment

and value in equal measure. Unlike a cruise, where you get enjoyment and pleasent memories,

with coins you get enjoyment , memories and permanent value. It doesnt take too many years

of collecting before you monitary input reaches many thousands of dollars.

dakra

When I first started collecting I looked at it as both fun and an investment. I knew in times of trouble, I could turn to that collection and at the very least get part of my investment back. I recently sold a good deal of my collection because I fell on some hard times plus I became disenchanted with the series.

One collection I am working on now are peace dollars. I hope that my son can enjoy coin collecting with me during his childhood and I hope to pass along my collection to him when he is older.

*But* If I have to sell off my coin collection because of hard times, I wouldn't think twice about it. I am hoping I do not fall on hard times but if I do, my coin collection is money in the bank.

I try to be an educated consumer and I'm not going to buy something overpriced when I know I can get it cheaper at another store. I don't impulse buy just because I love Peace Dollars. I don't need the best of the best. I do like to look at coins as an investment. I would never buy Yahoo at $150 because I know it is overvalued.... no matter how I liked Yahoo, it just isn't worth $150. If I waited it out I could buy Yahoo for $20! (of course, coins do not fluctuate like that, just making a point) In terms of coins, I'm not going to buy a $100 coin for $150 no matter how much I like it.

Whether I plan to keep it or sell it, I like to make smart decisions. I'd like what I own to increase in value over the years. If I don't end up selling it and it gets passed on to my son... He can make his own decisions on whether he wants to collect it or if he doesn't show an interest in coins he can sell it. It will be money in his pocket to buy something he enjoys.

-Dave

JoyofCollecting

Bear:

I too have a business background and have collected for over thirty years. And yes...over time one's collection becomes worth thousands of dollars. I too think it is this combination of these experiences that cause me not to look at coin collecting as an investment.

I think (my opinion only) it becomes an investment for them when they start think of the collection as something that can be sold if "hard times" come. I don't think of the coins that way any more than I think of the horses that my wife buys that way. Yes, they could be sold for thousands of dollars. But two thinks make it impractical for me to think of those horses as an investment:

1. She loves them too much and would never agree to sell them. (Just like I feel about my coins.)

2. If the financial markets ever got so bad that we really needed to sell them in order to put food on the table....then the value of all collectibles and horses etc will have drastically fallen in value anyway as they did during the depression.

Spending lots of money on a hobby (horses, coins, travel, gambling) doesn't make it a financial investment in my opinion. But...like I said before: my grandkids will be able to hold them in their hands.

Take care.

ANACONDA

"Anyone who collects a coin in a slab does so in hopes that that coin will increase in, or at least hold its value."

I respectfully disagree. My son collects coins, almost exclusively holdered modern toned stunners. I pay for them.

Neither one of us cares whether they go up in value. He buys them because he thinks they're cool and pretty.

I buy them for him because he's my boy.

He buys slabs because he gets good value for his money, and the holders protect the coins. Most of his coins cost $20 or so but he has a small hanfull of coins that cost over $300.

adrian

Bear

Thats it Adrian, no jelly donuts for you for the rest of the week.

cscoins

Part of the problem here is how black and white you folks seem to see things. "You're either a Collector or an Investor" is the general tone. I see it as something of a spectrum. I'm very new to coins but my approach/mindset is like 80% collector/20% Investor,speculator. For me that's part of the fun. Any yahoo with a boat load of money and no concern for relative future value could put together a great collection but for some of us its great fun to hunt down the deals and track changes in our collection's value. That's the challenge of the "game". No, it wouldn't devestate me if the coins I collect lost ALL of their value but it would erode some of the enjoyment. That would pretty much apply to any asset I had though and a coin collection *is* an asset.

Bear

CS, I believe that you get the brass ring for the correct answer. Collecting is a sliding

ratio between the excitement and enjoyment of the coins, with the value aspect. This ratio

will change with the indevidual, the age of the collector and a myriad of other factors , that

may involve each indevidual collector. Well done. You are a very astute person , to be able to

sort thru the various arguments and come up with a plausable bottom line answer. Bear

keets

.........and i would challenge anyone on this forum to come forward and tell me honestly that they have no idea of the worth of there collection. not an overall value, but as an example, a ballpark figure of how much a particular coin is worth. there is absolutely nothing wrong in that simple fact. in fact, it's an integral part of the hobby. the reason we have price guides isn't so much to know at what price to sell but at what price to buy. it follows logically that a value is then assigned to what we each have.

i'll be frank here. why on earth is this such a troubling topic to some?? as TDN said in another thread and as so many already understand, collect what you like. knowing what a coin/collection is worth doesn't make me an investor. selling coins at a profit doesn't make me an investor. those things probably make me an astute collector who pays attention to what he's doing.

sinking a lot of money into the coin market in hopes of cashing in down the road doesn't make me an investor. tracking prices for gain/loss of my holdings doesn't make me an investor. those things probably would mean i'm unwise. there are sure thing "winners" in coins, but they are surely outnumbered by the other kind and anyone who hopes to make a killing in this hobby and still enjoy the positive things it has to offer aside from profit is missing the boat.

that's why most of us are collectors who know the value of what they have in their respective collections and are free to embrace the hobby for the pleasure it brings. good friends, good memories, good coins and maybe, just maybe, some extra cash along the way!!!

al h.

Bear

Keets, You can have a brass ring also.

Now go take some jelly donuts out of petty cash.

Well said, well done. Bear

JoyofCollecting

Keets, Bear and CS you all have good points.

I think the reason the thread got a little off kilter is it's title. I think it's a little difficult for those of us who put very little weight on the "investor" side of the scale to take the word "hypocrite" as either positive or neutral.

Being called a hypocrite for expressing your opinion or perspective is a little upsetting. Being presumptuous enough to insist that someone must be a hypocrite is....well.....presumptuous. What possible purpose could it serve to come on the boards and imply that those of us that say we're in it for the pure Joy of Collecting are hypocrites. That would be about as ridiculous as me coming on the board and saying that those folks that are in it for pure investing are stupid....whether I belived it or not.

I think 99.8% of the folks on this board are great and I suspect that the title was not meant to be as offensive as it sounds...so I'm just going to assume that it was not meant to sound as harsh as it comes across.

That being said....I will now create my own post this evening explaining how I've been offended and that I'm leaving the boards and never coming back and how you're gonna be sorry when I'm dead. (Wink)

keets

"Bring out yer dead, Bring out yer dead!!"

".........but i'm not dead yet."

"well, you will be."

PLONK

"Bring out yer dead, Bring out yer dead!!"

al h.

LucyBop

<< <i>and i would challenge anyone on this forum to come forward and tell me honestly that they have no idea of the worth of there collection. >>



I haven't a clue how much my entire collection is worth and for any given coin, if I remember what I spent on it, I kinda go from there.

I have a 10k plus just in the engine in my 56 BelAir and I haven't a clue what the car is worth, same for my 55, my 64 drag vw has a 17k in it and I dont know what its worth, I have a very large collection of Golden age comics, 1950s items, clothes, shoes, vintage radios, crosley bakelite radios..... I could go on and on and on... I collect what I like, if the day ever comes to sell and I do make money cool.. But I don't sit around worrying or am I even concerned about what these things are worth... However, my rather large holding of Intel Stock is a huge concern! Yikes, have I taken a beating!

Bear

Cmon guys, your making my chocolate milk

come out my nose Im laughing so hard. Bear

agfox

Here's my take on this, read it, love it, hate it, roast it, just my opinion.

This hobby is plagued by investors. Some play the crack out game, some play the buy low sell high game, some play the maximize the slab number game. There are more games, but it comes back down to the money. True collectors say that you cannot pay too much for a coin that you truly desire. Investors say that a coin has a 10% chance to upgrade and make me 7k. I understand that there are many levels to the collector/investor and it's not cut and dry. I'm not trying to label anyone, but I believe that the "investor" side is the root of most if not all of the problems in the hobby. Would you worry if the 3rd party graders were grading tight if you just cared about the coin? Nope. Would you see the coin doctoring to the extent we have it today? Nope. Would MadMarty continue his ruthless campain against potatoes? God I hope not.

I'm not antislab, I like the slab service. It protects the coin from my greasy hands, and lord I'm clumbsy at times. I like authentication, and I like having another professionals opinion. I like the roughly defined values that can be applied so new folks don't get screwed ( too bad ). I don't like the market control the slab services seem to have ( and use ), and the inconsistancy that it causes.

My point is the money done it.

Opinions differ, that's what makes things interesting. Just think about it, are you in it for the money? or the fun? I want more fun.

And while we're venting. Hype, can we turn it down a little, jeesh.


Nathan

bulloncoins

<< <i>I think 99.8% of the folks on this board are great and I suspect that the title was not meant to be as offensive as it sounds...so I'm just going to assume that it was not meant to sound as harsh as it comes across.

That being said....I will now create my own post this evening explaining how I've been offended and that I'm leaving the boards and never coming back and how you're gonna be sorry when I'm dead. (Wink)



>>



the title was ment to get a discussion going. Maybe it was like misleading advertisement. While it did work, I can tell many took it the wrong way and I will try to tone it down to a more pc statement next time I post a thread. Maybe this is why more people just read than try to post.