<< <i> Do you know Bill Shamhart, Marc Emory, Jeff Garrett, Dan Ratner, David Schweitz, Jason Carter???? These guys all have world class grading eyes. >>
Well yes I do! I was just going to stay above the fray and enjoy these interesting posts, but have to comment. To protect these names and to not speak for them, let's just say I know more than one of them. These world class grading eyes are saying the same thing (to me directly) that is echoed here in many posts, including posts from respected coin dealers like Coinguy and Legend. Listen again PCGS - PCGS is NOT CONSISTENT in their grading! The world class graders are saying this. Specifically, I'm referring to the direction PCGS has taken the last two years or so, moreso lately. If you respect the opinion of these world class graders, take a shot at asking them directly.
<< <i>Concentrate on finding a few dealers you can trust and forget about up-grades, crossovers, and crack-outs.
Leave the grading service gamemanship to the pros and...
Have fun with your coins! >>
I'm just a lowly collector, but I can't help but reading into this comment and end up insulted. What, collectors just don't have the knowledge, experience, ability, to be able to up-grade, cross, or crack-out? Slabbed grading is a market given nowadays, but I did not realize, nor do I accept, that dealing with a grading service is best left to an elitist group of only recognized world class graders!
Some of these world class graders have approached me at shows and at auctions, soliciting my opinion on coin grades. Am I overall in the same league as any of them...no way! But I read into your comments that collectors should be relagated to the dregs. I don't think so. I do think that when many very experienced and concerned collectors, including several on these boards, experienced and concerned dealers, and hopefully sometime soon experienced and concerned world class graders, echo the same message that PCGS needs to address the issue of GRADING CONSISTENCY, PCGS should eject their elitist donkey doo attitude and deal with it.
Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
<< <i>"Most retail dealers aren't that good at grading coins."
"The retailers have the luxuary of passing their mistakes on to the clients. "
Great lines! I hope EVERY PCGS member who is a retail dealer reads that. Its bad enough the other services get stabbed, but now PCGS own members?
I guess thats why people do so well when they skip over dealers and just buy straight out of auctions.
Now I'm really pissed off. I challange any member of the PCGS grading staff to a PUBLIC debate at a major show about these issues. I have too much info to have the debate on these boards. >>
Maybe you should have a grading challenge instead of a debate
Agree with Rony 100% on this one. HRH really put his foot down his throat on this one. Looked like a cheaply disguised end-around directed in the general vicinity of Legend. Would have thought that the head of PCGS was above this type of stuff.
Remember this: grading services are by definition infallible. They cannot grade your coins correctly all the time. Figure on a 20% error rate on average. If you want a better rate than that, you'll have to assemble those top notch graders HRH mentioned, pay them each say $400,000 per year, and give them up to a minute to grade more expensive coins. If 7 out of 10 call the coin a 64......then it's a 64. Done deal. But you need 10 opinions and lots of time to get it right. Contrarily, PCGS and NGC will never ever get it right on a very high level. The crackout game will live on.
Leave the grading to the "pros" like PCGS who guarantee 20% failure.......I don't think so. The inconsistency has all but assured than even decent graders can play the crack out game if they desire.
I don't know if I'm a sharp cookie, but I do claim to be as sharp as a double-edged marshmallow!
Okey, I stand corrected.
Seriously, all I was trying to convey in my statement was that even though a coin (say the GSA STMAN bought) would technically grade MS65, due to the overall eye appeal of attractive toning, I wasn't going to sell the coin for 65 money. Beyond the fact that I loved the eye appeal, it would have been hard for me to justify my asking price. In some cases, a technical buyer might walk away from the coin.
Interestingly, we showed the coin to another dealer who buys lots of GSA's and he offered to buy the coin from STMAN at EXACTLY the same price I'd just sold it to him. I felt pretty good because I knew I had given STMAN a very fair price on the coin.....wholesale basically. I sure wish he'd have passed on the coin, or countered a dollar lower. She'd still be mine.
Hey Gsaguy, I do love the coin, and I know when to counter and when not to. I only wish I could have got a better image of it, the scan I did, kinda showed what the coin looks like but can't capture the rich color, and luster with a scanner. I spend enough time on the board and making a scan once in a while, I just don't have the time to learn to use a camera.
But hey, I thought the whole situation with us grading the coin and you taking it to the other dealer was FUN, don't you?
Now that's enough talk for now, lets move on to the next ones, I'm waiting.!!!!!
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
For several years, from the early nineties until about 2001, there was a certain stability in the coin market and between the two big players in the grading market(PCGS and NGC). NGC was a little looser in most marketable coin varities, such as mint state gold and Morgan dollars. Because of that and because of a down market, the pool of coins and the pool of players remained relatively stable, so we had an uneasy equilibrium on the crackout and crossover deals. The coins flowed smoothly in a circle. From PCGS to NGC to buyer, back to PCGS, well you get the picture. Then two things happened, the coin market got hot with a lot of sales to outsiders, (new buyers who buy mostly PCGS and NGC coins) and NGC tightened up their grading of the major market segments. This created the current instability and problems in the overall population of crack out coins and people who are wanting to crack out and upgrade. This is not a problem caused by PCGS, they are just caught in the middle, and so are the major dealers who are faced with the problem of replacing inventory in a rising market. It feels good at first, and then it sucks. My advice is to lay off the crack out stuff for a while and get back to basics, learn how to grade. I dont care who you are, dealer or collector.
In an insane society, a sane person will appear to be insane.
Seriously gsaguy I know you were refering to people that walk up and say "WHAT?? YOU WANT HOW MUCH?? CDN lists that @ $$$ bid, who you trying to shank?" which really doesn't mean they are tech graders but rather lacking in understanding of the CDN price base & coins other than sight unseen generics. They do miss out and build collections of lesser quality material. stman did well by evaluating the condition of the coin and firuring in the extra appeal in agreeing on the value. More collectors should be as sincerly micheal says, "astute."
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
Man! Am I glad I read this post! Now I can quit buying any coins for their beauty and/or because I like them. I'm also gratified to know the days and hours I spent listening to all those dealers that didn't have the slightest idea what they were talking about re. grading; was a complete waste of time. I can throw out all those web pages on grading I copied, and get rid of all my grading manuals. All I have to do is listen to the gospel according to Mr. Hall and buy nothing but PCGS Slabbed coins! What a relief! Come to think of it, what a pompous, elitest attitude! I know a couple of old-time dealers I would trust in a skinny minute over PCGS. Hope I never get so high on the ladder I don't remember who helped put me there. Remember Mr. hall, you meet the same people coming down ya met going up!
There are world class graders out there, but unfortunately none of them work at PCGS. Anyone with real talent would not want to spend 8 hours a day working in a dark room for the pennies they get paid. When a world class grader can make 500K to 5M a year why work for peanuts. There are many people who have been in this business as long as Mr Hall and to listen to his self serving manure is silly. He or his staff cannot grade their way out of a paper bag.
Most world class graders would not work for PCGS as the cut in pay would be too much. They are trying to use other graders as much lower pay than world class graders would require and passing it off as the best. By the way, why is concensus grading no longer done at PCGS, the verifier or finalizer has the ability to override the concensus. Heck why even have 3 graders, just one would work, because that is what they have been doing.' And to put their faith in a grader with one year professional grading experience and make him the final say shows how desperate they are for people. With getting one of their better graders back maybe things will start to get better but don't hold your breath.
Well we 've now pissed away 4+ pages of forum bandwith space on the same old tired argument with the same old tired results....nobody is completely satisfied with "the other guy's" grading skills.
Everybody stop buying coins...you're getting ripped off !!!!
Comments
<< <i> Do you know Bill Shamhart, Marc Emory, Jeff Garrett, Dan Ratner, David Schweitz, Jason Carter???? These guys all have world class grading eyes. >>
Well yes I do! I was just going to stay above the fray and enjoy these interesting posts, but have to comment. To protect these names and to not speak for them, let's just say I know more than one of them. These world class grading eyes are saying the same thing (to me directly) that is echoed here in many posts, including posts from respected coin dealers like Coinguy and Legend. Listen again PCGS - PCGS is NOT CONSISTENT in their grading! The world class graders are saying this. Specifically, I'm referring to the direction PCGS has taken the last two years or so, moreso lately. If you respect the opinion of these world class graders, take a shot at asking them directly.
<< <i>Concentrate on finding a few dealers you can trust and forget about up-grades, crossovers, and crack-outs.
Leave the grading service gamemanship to the pros and...
Have fun with your coins! >>
I'm just a lowly collector, but I can't help but reading into this comment and end up insulted. What, collectors just don't have the knowledge, experience, ability, to be able to up-grade, cross, or crack-out? Slabbed grading is a market given nowadays, but I did not realize, nor do I accept, that dealing with a grading service is best left to an elitist group of only recognized world class graders!
Some of these world class graders have approached me at shows and at auctions, soliciting my opinion on coin grades. Am I overall in the same league as any of them...no way! But I read into your comments that collectors should be relagated to the dregs. I don't think so. I do think that when many very experienced and concerned collectors, including several on these boards, experienced and concerned dealers, and hopefully sometime soon experienced and concerned world class graders, echo the same message that PCGS needs to address the issue of GRADING CONSISTENCY, PCGS should eject their elitist donkey doo attitude and deal with it.
<< <i>"Most retail dealers aren't that good at grading coins."
"The retailers have the luxuary of passing their mistakes on to the clients. "
Great lines! I hope EVERY PCGS member who is a retail dealer reads that. Its bad enough the other services get stabbed, but now PCGS own members?
I guess thats why people do so well when they skip over dealers and just buy straight out of auctions.
Now I'm really pissed off. I challange any member of the PCGS grading staff to a PUBLIC debate at a major show about these issues. I have too much info to have the debate on these boards. >>
Maybe you should have a grading challenge instead of a debate
Remember this: grading services are by definition infallible. They cannot grade your coins correctly all the time. Figure on a 20% error rate on average. If you want a better rate than that, you'll have to assemble those top notch graders HRH mentioned, pay them each say $400,000 per year, and give them up to a minute to grade more expensive coins. If 7 out of 10 call the coin a 64......then it's a 64.
Done deal. But you need 10 opinions and lots of time to get it right. Contrarily, PCGS and NGC will never ever get it right on a very high level. The crackout game will live on.
Leave the grading to the "pros" like PCGS who guarantee 20% failure.......I don't think so. The inconsistency has all but assured than even decent graders can play the crack out game if they desire.
roadrunner
I have been branded " I can't grade"?
That's ok I'm still in business
I don't know if I'm a sharp cookie, but I do claim to be as sharp as a double-edged marshmallow!
Okey, I stand corrected.
Seriously, all I was trying to convey in my statement was that even though a coin (say the GSA STMAN bought) would technically grade MS65, due to the overall eye appeal of attractive toning, I wasn't going to sell the coin for 65 money. Beyond the fact that I loved the eye appeal, it would have been hard for me to justify my asking price. In some cases, a technical buyer might walk away from the coin.
Interestingly, we showed the coin to another dealer who buys lots of GSA's and he offered to buy the coin from STMAN at EXACTLY the same price I'd just sold it to him. I felt pretty good because I knew I had given STMAN a very fair price on the coin.....wholesale basically. I sure wish he'd have passed on the coin, or countered a dollar lower. She'd still be mine.
Am I still on topic?
GSAGUY
But hey, I thought the whole situation with us grading the coin and you taking it to the other dealer was FUN, don't you?
Now that's enough talk for now, lets move on to the next ones, I'm waiting.!!!!!
stman did well by evaluating the condition of the coin and firuring in the extra appeal in agreeing on the value.
More collectors should be as sincerly micheal says, "astute."
No good deed will go unpunished.
Free Money Search
There are many people who have been in this business as long as Mr Hall and to listen to his self serving manure is silly. He or his staff cannot grade their way out of a paper bag.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
By the way, why is concensus grading no longer done at PCGS, the verifier or finalizer has the ability to override the concensus. Heck why even have 3 graders, just one would work, because that is what they have been doing.'
And to put their faith in a grader with one year professional grading experience and make him the final say shows how desperate they are for people. With getting one of their better graders back maybe things will start to get better but don't hold your breath.
.
just get along?
Camelot
<< <i>jello, only jello. >>
Wesson oil !!!
And I'd even have to break down and get my hands on an UNC Frankie for that.
<< <i>And I'd even have to break down and get my hands on an UNC Frankie for that. >>
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr....
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Everybody stop buying coins...you're getting ripped off !!!!
from MS60 to MS 70. Dont like the tast of circulated coins, they taste funny. Bear
Camelot