Part 3...Dealer grading skills
homerunhall
Posts: 2,496 ✭✭✭
This is just my opinion...
But after buying and selling coins for 42 years...going to hundreds of shows...going to hundreds of auctions...being part of the major market action for 31 years...handling hundreds of millions of dollars worth of coins...hanging around PCGS for 17 years...
It's my observation that...
1. A significant number of dealers aren't that good at grading coins. They know how to buy and sell... know how to look a coin up on the bluesheet...know about rare dates and numismatic history...know about market trends. But when it comes to consistently determing the subtle difference between a 65 and a 66 liner coin, they are not very accurate. There is a clear pecking order when it comes to grading skills. There are about 20 to 30 guys that are the cream of the crop. The next level is another 30 to 50 guys that are close to the top tier. After you get past the top 50 to 75 guys, the grading skills are not so hotsie totsie. Most of the guys you haven't heard of. Do you know Bill Shamhart, Marc Emory, Jeff Garrett, Dan Ratner, David Schweitz, Jason Carter???? These guys all have world class grading eyes.
2. Most of the great graders are wholesalers. Most retail dealers aren't that good at grading coins. The retailers know how to write about coins. They know how to romance clients. They know how to make you think they are the hippest coin dealer on the bourse floor. But most retailers do not have the grading skills of the wholesalers. I believe this is because the wholesalers have to deal with one another. They always sell to a super knowledgeable buyer and their margins are thinner than the retailers. The retailers have the luxuary of passing their mistakes on to the clients. They don't have to be as sharp at grading coins as the wholesalers to stay in business. There are a few retailers with good grading skills...but most have skills that range from second tier to clueless.
The above doesn't mean you shouldn't buy coins from the retailers. Most of the reputable retailers do a good job of getting nice coins at fair prices for their clients. The work hard and can be your best resource in the coin market. But I do think you should take their grading opinions and pronouncements with a big grain of salt. Concentrate on finding a few dealers you can trust and forget about up-grades, crossovers, and crack-outs.
Leave the grading service gamemanship to the pros and...
Have fun with your coins!
But after buying and selling coins for 42 years...going to hundreds of shows...going to hundreds of auctions...being part of the major market action for 31 years...handling hundreds of millions of dollars worth of coins...hanging around PCGS for 17 years...
It's my observation that...
1. A significant number of dealers aren't that good at grading coins. They know how to buy and sell... know how to look a coin up on the bluesheet...know about rare dates and numismatic history...know about market trends. But when it comes to consistently determing the subtle difference between a 65 and a 66 liner coin, they are not very accurate. There is a clear pecking order when it comes to grading skills. There are about 20 to 30 guys that are the cream of the crop. The next level is another 30 to 50 guys that are close to the top tier. After you get past the top 50 to 75 guys, the grading skills are not so hotsie totsie. Most of the guys you haven't heard of. Do you know Bill Shamhart, Marc Emory, Jeff Garrett, Dan Ratner, David Schweitz, Jason Carter???? These guys all have world class grading eyes.
2. Most of the great graders are wholesalers. Most retail dealers aren't that good at grading coins. The retailers know how to write about coins. They know how to romance clients. They know how to make you think they are the hippest coin dealer on the bourse floor. But most retailers do not have the grading skills of the wholesalers. I believe this is because the wholesalers have to deal with one another. They always sell to a super knowledgeable buyer and their margins are thinner than the retailers. The retailers have the luxuary of passing their mistakes on to the clients. They don't have to be as sharp at grading coins as the wholesalers to stay in business. There are a few retailers with good grading skills...but most have skills that range from second tier to clueless.
The above doesn't mean you shouldn't buy coins from the retailers. Most of the reputable retailers do a good job of getting nice coins at fair prices for their clients. The work hard and can be your best resource in the coin market. But I do think you should take their grading opinions and pronouncements with a big grain of salt. Concentrate on finding a few dealers you can trust and forget about up-grades, crossovers, and crack-outs.
Leave the grading service gamemanship to the pros and...
Have fun with your coins!
0
Comments
I'm talking raw coins of course..... And , when I go into the store, they seem to drop their prices all the time...
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
"The retailers have the luxuary of passing their mistakes on to the clients. "
Great lines! I hope EVERY PCGS member who is a retail dealer reads that. Its bad enough the other services get stabbed, but now PCGS own members?
I guess thats why people do so well when they skip over dealers and just buy straight out of auctions.
Now I'm really pissed off. I challange any member of the PCGS grading staff to a PUBLIC debate at a major show about these issues. I have too much info to have the debate on these boards.
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
Gary
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Gary
<< <i>And I challenge any of the PCGs graders or staff to a wrestling match! Best of 3 matches! >>
Any mud involved here? If so I wanna watch.
<< <i>Any mud involved here? If so I wanna watch. >>
That can be arranged and I may want to charge one uncirculated Frankie for admission!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
al h.
<< <i>But I do think you should take their grading opinions and pronouncements with a big grain of salt. Concentrate on finding a few dealers you can trust and forget about up-grades, crossovers, and crack-outs. >>
Probably the best coin advice ever spoken.
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
This was supposed to be a serious flame thread not a thread about wrestling!!!
What is the % of coins that get sent in for regrade (upgrade)
that actually upgrade.What was the % a year ago?
Even the dealers that you mentioned such as Dan Ratner are getting hammered.
The fact is that it is soooo hard to make a grade at PCGS that PCGS coins are sometimes bringing moon money at auctions.And do you know what? These coins cannot be sold because the price guides list the coins at a fraction of what they cost.Is it just because coins are so popular and "hot" that the grading has gotten tighter ?
If you don't admit that the the PCGS grading has gotten tighter than you are in denial.
Stewart
Are we talking about PCGS grading as if somehow it has morphed from market grading to technical grading?
I thought it was essentially market grading, the last 10 years....
I would like to see a return to technical grading and maybe we are finally getting that??????????
I would like to see a return to technical grading and maybe we are finally getting that??????????"
Bingo, I think you hit it Oreville, and I agree.
A return to technical grading is inevitable and wise.
David has told the truth. Most retail dealers don't have a clue. How do I know? I made more road trips than I can remember and never once
had a trip I did not make money on. All I did was pick off retail dealers in their own store. It is pretty easy. That does not mean by any
stretch that their customers get short changed. Not even. The smart dealer puts his customer in PCGS coins when quality means a very
high price. The only important thing is the customer gets what he is paying for. In the old days, before PCGS, the customer got the shaft a lot
of the time. Not because the dealer was trying to cheat them, but because the little dealer could not grade very good and would have no
way of knowing if a 93-s dollar was real or not. Slabs have made it harder for me, but it is much safer for the customer.
Rusty
David Hall is risking something here by being truthful.
We applaud Laura for her forthright and way with words.
Let's allow the "other side" to express an apposing opinion- especially when it is backed up with the credentials displayed.
Fair is fair (and speaking of which: PCGS is just as tight with the PO01 grade as they are with your crossovers but you don't hear us "PO01" collectors complaining. Well, mostly you don't.)
peacockcoins
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
i can only agree that you'll always come out ahead with a technical grade approach. learning to be able to see hairlines on proof coins hasn't been easy for me and there are still some series that give me problems with judging strike characteristics. but grading off those two factors, contact marks/rub and luster always works best. i'd much rather come in a point low grading that way than have flash and pizzazz cause me to overgrade and lose money later on when someone else wasn't struck in the same fashion. eye appeal is important but i personally place the others ahead of that.
al h.
<< <i>Most of the guys you haven't heard of. Do you know Bill Shamhart, Marc Emory, Jeff Garrett, Dan Ratner, David Schweitz, Jason Carter???? These guys all have world class grading eyes.
>>
David,
You know very well that these world class graders are also getting hammered on very nice original coins. Some of their coins that I have seen are absolutely incredible coins that should be liners on the 68/69 line, not 67/68. PCGS has become too scared of nice original coins because of the situation on doctored coins. This is very obvious to the world class graders.
Its time to return to the 1-70 scale, not the 1-68 scale.
John Butler
Sahara Coins
John
Too bad these guys won't comment. They probably don't want retribution! Its no secrect Dan stood in line for an explaination of his grades. I guess Dave Schwietz wore sun glasses at the show. I KNOW FOR A FACT he got hammered. Thats just two of the names.....
Spin is spin. But spin is not always the truth.
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
<< <i>1. A significant number of dealers aren't that good at grading coins >>
no question about it. they're more appropirately called "dealler wannabe's". i heard of every 1 of the guys you mentioned, but jason carter a world-class grader??? c'mon, not my experience at all, at least if his auction bidding is any indication!
<< <i>2. Most of the great graders are wholesalers >>
definitely disagree. most of the great graders are specialist collectors, imo. example: i'd take tom-reynolds grading my copper any day over even pcgs. but wholesalers would be #2
<< <i>Have fun with your coins! >>
bingo.
K S
Sometimes, as ridiculous as it seems, I think people want that, which only would create the problem they are griping about. What a mess! I guess no matter how many grading companies come and go, with claims of being the best, the saying "buy the coin and not the holder" will always be timely.
And advanced collectors will always fare better than novices.
STMAN,
You certainly speak the truth when you say you're a 'technical grader'. I felt like I had a Beagle hanging from my arse after you finally bought that GSA!
Seriously, there's nothing wrong with your approach. While it may cost you some coins (ie you won't be able to agree with the seller on the price due to his added valuation of eye appeal), you should accumulate some good value in your collection. Just don't fall prey to what ANACS was doing back in the mid 80's. It didn't matter if the coin was dirty brown or black, it was technically graded on bagmarks and strike alone.
GSAGUY
ROFLMAO!!! HAAAHAAAAHHAA
David, are you serious? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! People have submitted coins to you that were cracked out of a PCGS 65 holder, only to get a body bag in the mail........not a 64......a body bag. Now, let's talk about the thousands of times that people (members of this forum) have sent in a coin 3, 4 even 5 times to PCGS, only to get grades ranging from MS-63 to MS-65 for THE SAME COIN. How dare you challenge the grading expertise of dealers when YOU nor your staff can grade with repeatability.
I don't fault you for that, however, since nobody can be 100% correct all of the time. My problem is that you are so arrogant to think that you and your elite inner circle of "grading experts" are better than everyone else. I bet my money that there are thousands of collectors out there that are better graders than PCGS graders. Not because of technical ability, but because they are smart enough to know that grading is subjective and just an opinion. BTW, how many coins that you have graded does not make you more qualified.
In addition how about this little tidbit posted in a thread on this board by a prominent coin dealer:
...a coin dealer in the early 1970s ran ads in the LA Times offering to buy silver. An elderly couple brought in an original roll of cherry BU 1930 Standing Liberty quarters. The dealer paid them melt for the coins. Did he do anything wrong???
Is there a question here?
Joe.
Understood about we don't want to just tech grade an ugly coin. I have no problem paying a premium on a eye appealing coin, I just want it graded right. A GSA is different in a way, but on a slabbed coin by the grading services that is market graded, and hyped by the seller as being PQ for the next higher grade..... I'd rather not have what intelligence I have insulted, and have the darned thing graded correctly.
Then we can argue over what price it's worth.
But when it comes to consistently determing the subtle difference between a 65 and a 66 liner coin, they are not very accurate.
ROFLMAO!!! HAAAHAAAAHHAA
David, are you serious? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! People have submitted coins to you that were cracked out of a PCGS 65 holder, only to get a body bag in the mail........not a 64......a body bag. Now, let's talk about the thousands of times that people (members of this forum) have sent in a coin 3, 4 even 5 times to PCGS, only to get grades ranging from MS-63 to MS-65 for THE SAME COIN. How dare you challenge the grading expertise of dealers when YOU nor your staff can grade with repeatability.
I don't fault you for that, however, since nobody can be 100% correct all of the time. My problem is that you are so arrogant to think that you and your elite inner circle of "grading experts" are better than everyone else. I bet my money that there are thousands of collectors out there that are better graders than PCGS graders. Not because of technical ability, but because they are smart enough to know that grading is subjective and just an opinion. BTW, how many coins that you have graded does not make you more qualified.
Ed - nicely put. Thank you. If I may suggest, you can always email it to him (dhall@collectors.com, I think) in case your post got buried and he missed it.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
You're usually a pretty sharp cookie but you have made a serious mistake when you said <<<While it may cost you some coins (ie you won't be able to agree with the seller on the price due to his added valuation of eye appeal)>>>
We DO NOT use the assigned grade as a pricing service like the dealers & other collectors do. We use the assigned grade as the condition of the coin, ie the GRADE. I might pay 65 money for a real nice 63 but the stinking thing is still a 63. We are our own judge of the so-called added eye appeal premium. The only coins we miss out on are overpriced coins.
referring back to a thread last summer by kranky when he reported from the ANA grading seminar, he stated that the general opinion was that a coins reverse won't raise the overall grade but it may lower it. similarly, with regard to color and overall tone, the grade shouldn't be raised significantly due to that but might be lowered if the toning is unattractive and makes the coin look dirty. just my opinion.
and karl, my biggest education here has been that there are some individuals who are at the top in assessing a certain series. good point. agreeing with you is starting to become habit forming. that has me worried!!!
al h.
I wanted to remain anonymous, but I might as well come out now. Thank you for your public adoration and acknowledgement. I thought I was good, but being in the top 20 or 30 seems fair enough. Thanks again!
Tyler
I hope my original thread/concerns get resolved.
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
And from what I have read these dealers do not just send in any coin for regrade they carefully examine the coin to make sure there are no hidden problems which seem to be prevalent on so many slabbed coins these days. Just look at the story Mitch told us about the guy who stood in line had HRH examine his coin and hall said it had a good chance of upgrading to 67, then it not only did not upgrade it didn't even regrade 66 but was downgraded to 65!! Why???? Because Hall cannot accurately asses the grade of a coin or maybe it was because like the dealer who submitted the coin he took more then just a 10-20 second glance and actually examined the coin thoroughly before he rendered his decision.
I believe one of the problems with the inconsistencies we have seen over the years is that graders just don't take enough time to look at each coin before rendering a grade especially when it comes to the liner coins that if submitted 4 or 5 times it comes back a different grade multiple times. If they would just take an extra 30-40 seconds per coin they might be able to be a little more consistent especially when it comes to coins that are borderline.
All that can be said, has been said. It is up to the powers that be , to evaluate, consider
and modify any and all imperfections in the system.
Camelot
Stupid urban myth.
I worked at PCGS, spent plenty of time on more difficult coins, and saw other graders do the same. I've also visited NGC and seen them do the same. On the other hand, I have no such knowledge of ACG's grading practices.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Andy,
Not a myth. David Hall has stated in the past that the average time spent per coin is that 10-20 seconds. I don't deny that there are probably many coins that a grader may spend additional time on for one reason or another, but the average is still that number.
<< <i>When the grading services grade a coin they only GLANCE at it for 10-20 seconds
Stupid urban myth.
I worked at PCGS, spent plenty of time on more difficult coins, and saw other graders do the same. I've also visited NGC and seen them do the same. On the other hand, I have no such knowledge of ACG's grading practices. >>
Andy-
So glad to read your post. I've been waiting for someone with firsthand knowledge to say what common sense would make obvious!!! PCGS isn't going to take on a $60,000 grade guarantee with a 10-20 second glance. Hello? The greater the potential grade guarantee liability, the longer the review. The greater the number of graders that will review the coin. Now, some Proof Kennedy will get a 5 second glance, a bullion Eagle will get a 5 second glance, but a great classic coin will get its proper time.
With the exception of early classic coins, most can be graded in a few seconds.
Mr. Lustig,
About 10 to 15 years ago weren't you one of the biggest coin dealers around? If so, I always enjoyed looking at your coins at major shows. Man, you always had the best table around. If memory serves me correct you had an 1841 $2 1/2, 1873-CC NA .25, 1858 $10 MS64.......and didn't you have the Amon Carter 1794 Dollar? I also remember selling you a real nice Proof Seated Half at a coin show in the WTC sometime in the early 1990's.
A grader can grade most modern coins in a few seconds. Untoned silver dollars and bulk gold (like 60-64 Saints) in maybe 6 seconds. That's the vast majority of submissions. Play with the numbers. There's plenty of time to grade the more difficult coins.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I'm still about 210 pounds. Thanks for rubbing it in!
Glad you enjoyed the coins. So did I!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.