"I picked out about 50 coins I thought had a chance to cross (actually only one was an ANACS coin.) I took them into the grading room and told the graders, "I've picked out some nice NGC coins out of a dealer's inventory. See what you can do." and nothing more. A day later they had crossed over 30 coins, including one upgrade...a 1917 T1 25C that went from NGC 66FH to PCGS 67FH. "
Clearly not a valid study. Sorry, David.
You are smart enough to know that we are smart enough to know that you know what we know. And you know that we know that you picking out 50 coins and saying "see what you can do...i picked these out for crossover" means "cross a bunch of these."
"Hey Joe, the man says cross a bunch of these. Whadaya think we ought to do?"
"Oh, i think since we've been recently reprimanded for being too tight, that we ought to just reject everyone one of them for crossover.
.....I'm getting tired of this job that pays only 100,000 a year and besides, I liked my old job of cleaning coin cases at shows for donations."
Dave (Homerunhall), I appreciate your feedback as these threads have been driving me crazy. Although I have collected coins on and off for years, I have to admit that I have only started collecting "Full Time" over the past year.
I have my concerns about the industry (Doctors, Dealers, Grading Companies..etc) but one thing that concerns me is rumors surrounding Dealers and 3rd Party grading companies. I have heard it too many times to ignore that dealers can push to "make a grade". Legend mentions this on their website: Link To Website
<< <i>Submission of a coin to either grading service is more than filling out a form and sending it in. We know how to walk submission thorough both services to present and maximize the grade for your coins. We personally know all of the people involved, so if there is ever a disagreement or question, we know who to talk to to get is straightened out. >>
I'm not sure if that is just a sales pitch from Legend but as a collector, I am concerned that the 3rd Party Grading Services are allowing dealers to dictate the grade. Whether it happened in the past or if it is still happening to an extent, this practice needs to be stopped. It hurts the hobby. With this in mind, I can see how the dealers are complaining that they cannot get coins to cross/ you guys are grading tough and I applaud you for it.
I understand grading is basically an opinion on a coin. Some people have good skills and others are not so good at it. I think we will see the 'splitting of the hairs' as long as coins get graded. Give a coin to two different people and get two different opinions.
Another one of my concerns is Doctored coins making it into slabs (AT'ed and Repaired) I totally understand that with today's technology, people are finding ways to doctor coins like never before... Some doctoring can basically go undetected. There have been posts concerning doctored coins going into PCGS (and other) slabs. What is PCGS doing in this area to protect the coin collector?
Although I am not sending in too many coins to be graded. I do appreciate the 3rd party grading services and what they have done for the hobby. While it has helped cut down on the blatant problems in the coin industry, it has also spurned new problems, not meant as an insult but in comparison... Pass a new law and people will find a way around that law.
<< <i>I'm not sure if that is just a sales pitch from Legend but as a collector, I am concerned that the 3rd Party Grading Services are allowing dealers to dictate the grade. Whether it happened in the past or if it is still happening to an extent, this practice needs to be stopped. It hurts the hobby. With this in mind, I can see how the dealers are complaining that they cannot get coins to cross/ you guys are grading tough and I applaud you for it. >>
Dave,
You hit the nail on the head - the problem is not attitude, it's privilege, arrogance, and a lack of a level playing field. If "tightening" up results in more consistency, and less dealer influence and dealer concentration of power, then it will only benefit the hobby. If "ATTITUDE" is at the expense of some big dealers, and for the benefit of the general collecter (not the elitist collector's who also expect special privileges and special access) - then lets hope the grading services have a lot more ATTITUDE.
Leo, One message with several links would probably work to your advantage. In my experience when people start spamming, they get ignored and the point gets lost in the process.
Thanks Pushkin, it's nice to know other collectors share my concern. I have also received similar feedback from other collectors on the board, as well, through PM's. I don't want to bash dealers but I hoped to get more insight from their end. I want to make an educated decision on the way I have been perceiving the coin hobby to be.
I resign myself to the fact that in many cases, Dealers and Collectors view the hobby in two differnt ways. I will use the knowledge that I have learned through these threads to be more of an educated buyer/collector.
"I'm not sure if that is just a sales pitch from Legend"
What a great line. I haven't laughed so hard from any statement on this forum as that one....
Flame me, broil me, do whatever, I can take it.
My mission is simple, I want to help collectors. I'm sorry I can't sugar coat things, the biz side of coins can be very rough. The better the dealer to dealer/grading services and all other things are that collectors don't see, the more they can freely enjoy the hobby. Unfortunately, there ARE issues that do need to be publically dealt with (like the services behavior and coin doctors).
Laura Sperber
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
Laura, you mentioned something abt 73% NGC can't be overgraded , however over the years most NGC coins I've seen or bought have been overgraded. Most NGC pieces do not sell for PCGS prices either. You know that. You made some valid points, but frabkly I'm sticking to what I originally said. I prefer they stick to tight tight standards. I'd rather have PQ coins of the given grade then be involved in this crossover crack out game charade. None of that is really doing a service for us collectors. Most dealers are so preoccupied with what a coin may or may not be, should be, can be. The hell with all of this, can't we just go back to normalcy?
<< <i>The better the dealer to dealer/grading services and all other things are that collectors don't see, the more they can freely enjoy the hobby. >>
NO! Sorry, I couldn't disagree more. This sounds a lot like "Trust me, I work for the government".
Yes, NGC can have more commercial standards-at times. But for PCGS to imply they are inept or their product sucks is to me, is coping an attitude. I guess no one has even seen a bad PCGS coin, huh?
There are MANY MONSTER collections soley in NGC holders. They just don't get publicity. I can name one set of PR67-68 Ultra Cameo Morgans a West Coast dealer built. Ask ANY dealer but someone close to PCGS-they's KILL to get those coins! Or how about the Knoxville collection? I personally saw the Share Finest Known Seated Dollar collection (of which many coins has formerly been PCGS). Are all those high powered coins crap? According to PCGS they very well could be-but I don't think so! According to PCGS PUBLISHED numbers-73% of those will not cross! Isn't that special?
If you listen to what had been written here, all those collections are tarnished because they are in NGC holders. Some of the MOST DESIREABLE coins on the planet aren't any good now because they are not in PCGS holders. IMHO-thats a world class horrible attitude! PCGS needs to learn what reality is!
Laura Sperber
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
Some of you have mentioned that you feel it's a conflict of interest for Collectors Universe to own PCGS and also Bowers and Merena and David Hall Rare Coins. We have addressed this issue before, but we can do it again.
Here's how we avoid the possibility of conflict of interest.
WE NEVER SUBMITT COINS THAT WE OWN TO PCGS FOR GRADING. WE ARE NEVER OUR OWN CUSTOMER.
All of the PCGS coins that B&M and DHRC sell are purchased in the secondary market. We buy coins from the people (usually dealers) who have PCGS coins for sale. If we buy a raw coin, we sell it raw. If we buy a coin in an NGC holder, we sell it in an NGC holder. If we buy a PCGS coin that looks like it has upgrade potential, we put it in a B&M or Kingswood auction and hope at least two bidders will make sure the coin brings a premium price. We do not use any type of PCGS grading for coins we own.
The above is a quote from David Hall in a forum post titled "Conflict of interest" Dated 11/14/2002.
<< <i>"I'm not sure if that is just a sales pitch from Legend"
What a great line. I haven't laughed so hard from any statement on this forum as that one....
Flame me, broil me, do whatever, I can take it. >>
First of all, I fail to see the flame. Second of all, why is the above statement so funny? If it's not just a sales pitch and your being honest... then you are confirming that you having inside connections at the 3rd party grading services who will grade your coins higher. Thanks for your honesty!
Laura, you mentioned something abt 73% NGC can't be overgraded , however over the years most NGC coins I've seen or bought have been overgraded. Most NGC pieces do not sell for PCGS prices either. You know that. You made some valid points, but frabkly I'm sticking to what I originally said. I prefer they stick to tight tight standards. I'd rather have PQ coins of the given grade then be involved in this crossover crack out game charade.
1) NGC grades to a set standard.
2) PCGS grades to a moving standard.
3) PCGS gets a kick out of grading a choice MS65 as MS64 or worse. NGC does it's job and grades an MS65 as MS65. I recently purchased a PCGS MS66 commem. I paid strong money for the coin - close to MS67 money. That coin is an MS67 any day of the week. It WILL reside in an MS67 slab at some point. People like you want to point to the prices that a PCGS MS66 brings and say that they are tight while NGC overgrades and the proof is in the prices realized. After all, an NGC MS66 would have brought half of what this PCGS one brought. I just hope the original submitter of that coin wasn't a collector that didn't know better and sold it for MS66 money because PCGS said it was MS66 and they are the grading gods.
4) If NGC overgrades so much more than PCGS, who come the Bluesheet bids are the same? These premiums you hear for PCGS coins are largely due to the fact that PCGS doesn't have a true 1-70 grading scale. If you want an MS67, well then, your coin better be a shot MS69.
I,ve been reading all of these posts and feel its time to put in my two cents worth. Maybe we should get rid of all of the grading services and everyone can put there own grades on thier coins (All of my coins would be MS70). This is America, free country if you don't like a company take your business elsewhere. I think PCGS is the best grading company around (my opinion) and I will continue to use their services. I applaud homerunhall for replying to these issues. Try to get the CEO of other companies to address concerns of every customer. (Imagine the CEO of one of the big car manufactures addressing everyone who bought a lemon.) If you see a coin in an MS64 holder and buy it with the hopes of upgrading to MS65 or 66. You are taking a gamble and not every lottery ticket is a winner.
gmarguli, your always knocking PCGS so I won't even respond. I believe others are ignoring you too, I just wanted to let you know in case you forgot I stand by what I said, as to do so many other knowlkedgable collectors and serious numismatists in flame retardant suits, i'm outta here!
marcmoish, I praise PCGS when they do good and I knock them when they do bad.
If you think that PCGS can do no wrong, then that is fine. There is a reason why NGC has leapt ahead in number of submissions. There is a reason why people and dealers are pissed at PCGS. It is not that they are tight. It is that they are inconsistent.
Now I know full well that Kool-Aiders will read what I just wrote and say they want PCGS to be tight. That's the first sign that they haven't a clue. Hint: KEY WORD IS INCONSISTENT.
And as always, if you can rebut the fact, make a personal comment and get "outta here!".
So long as people continue to pay the ridiculous amounts of money for a 1 point spread, in someone else's opinion, on the grade of a coin, rather than buying a coin based on it's merits, this situation will not change.
Let me edit the above paragraph: This ain't gonna change.
Give me an authentic coin and I'll determine for myself what it's value is. If I can't do that, I really don't have any business buying the coin now do I? Face it, people are buying numbers, in large part to compete in the Registry game.
It's human nature to compete for the best of the best. It's also human nature to take advantage of the weaker springs of human nature.
Consistency in grading requires consistency in the staff of the grading service. Whenever the employee turnover rate starts going up, you can bet the consistency is going to suffer. Experience is certainly an important asset in any area of specialization. This is where the opinions of the Dealers, who personally view and handle thousands of coins over a period of time, should be given strong consideration. When a large segment of well respected dealers start voicing concern, a smart company would welcome their input and appreciate the opportunity to gain a better understanding.
When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
I think Russ and EVP raise a good point re your handing the 50 NGC & ANACs coins to your graders. This is not scientifically valid.
While I agree with some of your comments, I must strongly take exception to item 5. You cannot make a blanket statement that NGC grades looser than PCGS. No one will take you seriously if you continue to make comments like these. Bluesheet prices are NOT lower in all series in all grades.
While it is true that you have seen more coins than I ever will, based on the PF 65 Barber coinage I have seen (100 coins, give or take), if anything, the PCGS coins did not look as good to me as the NGC material.
In terms of MS 65 & 6 Seated coinage with motto, based on coins I have seen, I did not notice a discernable trend re whether PCGS or NGC coins looked better. Ditto re Capped Bust and Reeded Edge coinage in 4 and 5.
The areas where I believe you are correct are Large and Half Cents, and Shield and Liberty Nickels in 4 and better (I have seen at least two to three hundred of these Large and Half Cents in person).
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
Good idea. Take 100 PCGS coins and resubmit them raw multiple times. I bet that the results would be most interesting to say the least. The same for NGC.
While David Hall was only 60% accurate in picking out nice NGC coins that is a reasonable accuracy number for a grading service grader. Take 3 graders with 60% accuracy (40% inaccuracy) and you end up with an error rate of (.4x.4.x.4) or 6.4% or 94.6% accuracy. That would be great. It's a shame that it isn't be done in reality. Throw in the finalizer and you hit essentially 98%. That would be a record to be proud of. Now either the graders can't reach that 60% level consistently on the SAME type of coins or 3-4 graders are NOT looking at all the coins.
Now if I owned the company and could walk into the grading room with a suggestion of crossover, what do you think would happen. What happened about the FTC hands off policy? Isn't what you did a direct conflict of interest? Seems like it to me. Let the major dealers be able and walk into the grading room to make the same suggestions.
It was not an unbiased test with David Hall himself bringing them into the grading room. Even so, coins Hall handpicked as the best candidates to cross only had a 60% crossover rate.
In my own personal experience, keeping them in the holders, I'm averaging about 42%, and cracking them out my rate of crossing to the same grade is a bit over 70%.
I do think they are even harder on the coins now that Rick Montgomery left, so unless my customer wants the coin cracked out to improve his odds but also assumes the risk of a down grade or bodybag, unless I think the coin has about an 80% chance of crossing I try to talk him out of a submission.
I bought a solid NGC EF-45 1793 Wreath Cent at the Long Beach show that I felt had about an 80% chance of crossing iN THE HOLDER, but I would have accepted EF40 and I wrote that as a minimum on the submission sheet. My customer wanted an EF but only in a PCGS holder. Came back crossed over at EF-45.
I HAVE seen coins that dealers have complained did not cross, PCGS is nuts, etc, and frankly, I wouldn't have crossed them over myself after I saw the coins in question.
Laura Sperber, knowledgeable co-owner of Legend Numismatics wrote here on this forum that the coin should grade technically, regardless of dark or unsightly toning...the grade is the grade. (I'm paraphrasing Laura). Laura may be right, but coins are market graded today..an ugly coin won't get the grade even if technically it does meet the grade. Is this a crock? The PCGS grade today generally defines the WORTH of the coin.
Yet appearance IS a large factor in the grade, at least with PCGS. The bulk of the coins in dealers' stock boxes are NGC examples, mostly with unsightly toning. One rarely sees any PCGS slabs in those boxes except for modern material. No dealer will deny that if he's truthful.
Comments
and told the graders, "I've picked out some nice NGC coins out of a dealer's inventory. See what you can do." and nothing more. A day
later they had crossed over 30 coins, including one upgrade...a 1917 T1 25C that went from NGC 66FH to PCGS 67FH. "
Clearly not a valid study. Sorry, David.
You are smart enough to know that we are smart enough to know that you know what we know. And you know that we know that you
picking out 50 coins and saying "see what you can do...i picked these out for crossover" means "cross a bunch of these."
"Hey Joe, the man says cross a bunch of these. Whadaya think we ought to do?"
"Oh, i think since we've been recently reprimanded for being too tight, that we ought to just reject everyone one of them for crossover.
.....I'm getting tired of this job that pays only 100,000 a year and besides, I liked my old job of cleaning coin cases at shows for donations."
adrian
Nick on forehead and by eye and mark on cheek.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I appreciate your feedback as these threads have been driving me crazy. Although I have collected coins on and off for years, I have to admit that I have only started collecting "Full Time" over the past year.
I have my concerns about the industry (Doctors, Dealers, Grading Companies..etc) but one thing that concerns me is rumors surrounding Dealers and 3rd Party grading companies. I have heard it too many times to ignore that dealers can push to "make a grade". Legend mentions this on their website:
Link To Website
<< <i>Submission of a coin to either grading service is more than filling out a form and sending it in. We know how to walk submission thorough both services to present and maximize the grade for your coins. We personally know all of the people involved, so if there is ever a disagreement or question, we know who to talk to to get is straightened out. >>
I'm not sure if that is just a sales pitch from Legend but as a collector, I am concerned that the 3rd Party Grading Services are allowing dealers to dictate the grade. Whether it happened in the past or if it is still happening to an extent, this practice needs to be stopped. It hurts the hobby. With this in mind, I can see how the dealers are complaining that they cannot get coins to cross/ you guys are grading tough and I applaud you for it.
I understand grading is basically an opinion on a coin. Some people have good skills and others are not so good at it. I think we will see the 'splitting of the hairs' as long as coins get graded. Give a coin to two different people and get two different opinions.
Another one of my concerns is Doctored coins making it into slabs (AT'ed and Repaired) I totally understand that with today's technology, people are finding ways to doctor coins like never before... Some doctoring can basically go undetected. There have been posts concerning doctored coins going into PCGS (and other) slabs. What is PCGS doing in this area to protect the coin collector?
Although I am not sending in too many coins to be graded. I do appreciate the 3rd party grading services and what they have done for the hobby. While it has helped cut down on the blatant problems in the coin industry, it has also spurned new problems, not meant as an insult but in comparison... Pass a new law and people will find a way around that law.
Thanks,
Dave
I would ask how sharp the steps are.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>I'm not sure if that is just a sales pitch from Legend but as a collector, I am concerned that the 3rd Party Grading Services are allowing dealers to dictate the grade. Whether it happened in the past or if it is still happening to an extent, this practice needs to be stopped. It hurts the hobby. With this in mind, I can see how the dealers are complaining that they cannot get coins to cross/ you guys are grading tough and I applaud you for it. >>
Dave,
You hit the nail on the head - the problem is not attitude, it's privilege, arrogance, and a lack of a level playing field. If "tightening" up results in more consistency, and less dealer influence and dealer concentration of power, then it will only benefit the hobby. If "ATTITUDE" is at the expense of some big dealers, and for the benefit of the general collecter (not the elitist collector's who also expect special privileges and special access) - then lets hope the grading services have a lot more ATTITUDE.
One message with several links would probably work to your advantage. In my experience when people start spamming, they get ignored and the point gets lost in the process.
-Dave
I resign myself to the fact that in many cases, Dealers and Collectors view the hobby in two differnt ways. I will use the knowledge that I have learned through these threads to be more of an educated buyer/collector.
-Dave
What a great line. I haven't laughed so hard from any statement on this forum as that one....
Flame me, broil me, do whatever, I can take it.
My mission is simple, I want to help collectors. I'm sorry I can't sugar coat things, the biz side of coins can be very rough. The better the dealer to dealer/grading services and all other things are that collectors don't see, the more they can freely enjoy the hobby. Unfortunately, there ARE issues that do need to be publically dealt with (like the services behavior and coin doctors).
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
Marc
<< <i>The better the dealer to dealer/grading services and all other things are that collectors don't see, the more they can freely enjoy the hobby. >>
NO! Sorry, I couldn't disagree more. This sounds a lot like "Trust me, I work for the government".
There are MANY MONSTER collections soley in NGC holders. They just don't get publicity. I can name one set of PR67-68 Ultra Cameo Morgans a West Coast dealer built. Ask ANY dealer but someone close to PCGS-they's KILL to get those coins! Or how about the Knoxville collection? I personally saw the Share Finest Known Seated Dollar collection (of which many coins has formerly been PCGS). Are all those high powered coins crap? According to PCGS they very well could be-but I don't think so! According to PCGS PUBLISHED numbers-73% of those will not cross! Isn't that special?
If you listen to what had been written here, all those collections are tarnished because they are in NGC holders. Some of the MOST DESIREABLE coins on the planet aren't any good now because they are not in PCGS holders. IMHO-thats a world class horrible attitude! PCGS needs to learn what reality is!
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
Here's how we avoid the possibility of conflict of interest.
WE NEVER SUBMITT COINS THAT WE OWN TO PCGS FOR GRADING. WE ARE NEVER OUR OWN CUSTOMER.
All of the PCGS coins that B&M and DHRC sell are purchased in the secondary market. We buy coins from the people (usually dealers) who have PCGS coins for sale. If we buy a raw coin, we sell it raw. If we buy a coin in an NGC holder, we sell it in an NGC holder. If we buy a PCGS coin that looks like it has upgrade potential, we put it in a B&M or Kingswood auction and hope at least two bidders will make sure the coin brings a premium price. We do not use any type of PCGS grading for coins we own.
The above is a quote from David Hall in a forum post titled "Conflict of interest" Dated 11/14/2002.
<< <i>"I'm not sure if that is just a sales pitch from Legend"
What a great line. I haven't laughed so hard from any statement on this forum as that one....
Flame me, broil me, do whatever, I can take it. >>
First of all, I fail to see the flame. Second of all, why is the above statement so funny? If it's not just a sales pitch and your being honest... then you are confirming that you having inside connections at the 3rd party grading services who will grade your coins higher. Thanks for your honesty!
-Dave
1) NGC grades to a set standard.
2) PCGS grades to a moving standard.
3) PCGS gets a kick out of grading a choice MS65 as MS64 or worse. NGC does it's job and grades an MS65 as MS65. I recently purchased a PCGS MS66 commem. I paid strong money for the coin - close to MS67 money. That coin is an MS67 any day of the week. It WILL reside in an MS67 slab at some point. People like you want to point to the prices that a PCGS MS66 brings and say that they are tight while NGC overgrades and the proof is in the prices realized. After all, an NGC MS66 would have brought half of what this PCGS one brought. I just hope the original submitter of that coin wasn't a collector that didn't know better and sold it for MS66 money because PCGS said it was MS66 and they are the grading gods.
4) If NGC overgrades so much more than PCGS, who come the Bluesheet bids are the same? These premiums you hear for PCGS coins are largely due to the fact that PCGS doesn't have a true 1-70 grading scale. If you want an MS67, well then, your coin better be a shot MS69.
I think PCGS is the best grading company around (my opinion) and I will continue to use their services.
I applaud homerunhall for replying to these issues. Try to get the CEO of other companies to address concerns of every customer. (Imagine the CEO of one of the big car manufactures addressing everyone who bought a lemon.)
If you see a coin in an MS64 holder and buy it with the hopes of upgrading to MS65 or 66. You are taking a gamble and not every lottery ticket is a winner.
John
I hate it when you see my post before I can edit the spelling.
Always looking for nice type coins
my local dealer
your always knocking PCGS so I won't even respond. I believe others are ignoring you too, I just wanted to let you know in case you forgot
I stand by what I said, as to do so many other knowlkedgable collectors and serious numismatists in flame retardant suits, i'm outta here!
Marc
If you think that PCGS can do no wrong, then that is fine. There is a reason why NGC has leapt ahead in number of submissions. There is a reason why people and dealers are pissed at PCGS. It is not that they are tight. It is that they are inconsistent.
Now I know full well that Kool-Aiders will read what I just wrote and say they want PCGS to be tight. That's the first sign that they haven't a clue. Hint: KEY WORD IS INCONSISTENT.
And as always, if you can rebut the fact, make a personal comment and get "outta here!".
Nice and toasty.
Camelot
Let me edit the above paragraph: This ain't gonna change.
Give me an authentic coin and I'll determine for myself what it's value is. If I can't do that, I really don't have any business buying the coin now do I? Face it, people are buying numbers, in large part to compete in the Registry game.
It's human nature to compete for the best of the best. It's also human nature to take advantage of the weaker springs of human nature.
Consistency in grading requires consistency in the staff of the grading service. Whenever the employee turnover rate starts going up, you can bet the consistency is going to suffer. Experience is certainly an important asset in any area of specialization. This is where the opinions of the Dealers, who personally view and handle thousands of coins over a period of time, should be given strong consideration. When a large segment of well respected dealers start voicing concern, a smart company would welcome their input and appreciate the opportunity to gain a better understanding.
When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
Thomas Paine
I think Russ and EVP raise a good point re your handing the 50 NGC & ANACs coins to your graders. This is not scientifically valid.
While I agree with some of your comments, I must strongly take exception to item 5. You cannot make a blanket statement that NGC grades looser than PCGS. No one will take you seriously if you continue to make comments like these. Bluesheet prices are NOT lower in all series in all grades.
While it is true that you have seen more coins than I ever will, based on
the PF 65 Barber coinage I have seen (100 coins, give or take), if anything, the PCGS coins did not look as good to me as the NGC material.
In terms of MS 65 & 6 Seated coinage with motto, based on coins I have seen, I did not notice a discernable trend re whether PCGS or NGC coins looked better. Ditto re Capped Bust and Reeded Edge coinage in 4 and 5.
The areas where I believe you are correct are Large and Half Cents, and Shield and Liberty Nickels in 4 and better (I have seen at least two to three hundred of these Large and Half Cents in person).
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
For your next experiment, why don't you randomly crack out 50 PCGS coins. Then let us know how many come back at the same grade.
While David Hall was only 60% accurate in picking out nice NGC coins that is a reasonable accuracy number for a grading service grader. Take 3 graders with 60% accuracy (40% inaccuracy) and you end up with an error rate of (.4x.4.x.4) or 6.4% or 94.6% accuracy. That would be great. It's a shame that it isn't be done in reality. Throw in the finalizer and you hit essentially 98%. That would be a record to be proud of. Now either the graders can't reach that 60% level consistently on the SAME type of coins or 3-4 graders are NOT looking at all the coins.
roadrunner
Let the major dealers be able and walk into the grading room to make the same suggestions.
It was not an unbiased test with David Hall himself bringing them into the grading room. Even so, coins Hall handpicked as the best candidates to cross only had a 60% crossover rate.
In my own personal experience, keeping them in the holders, I'm averaging about 42%, and cracking them out my rate of crossing to the same grade is a bit over 70%.
I do think they are even harder on the coins now that Rick Montgomery left, so unless my customer wants the coin cracked out to improve his odds but also assumes the risk of a down grade or bodybag, unless I think the coin has about an 80% chance of crossing I try to talk him out of a submission.
I bought a solid NGC EF-45 1793 Wreath Cent at the Long Beach show that I felt had about an 80% chance of crossing iN THE HOLDER, but I would have accepted EF40 and I wrote that as a minimum on the submission sheet. My customer wanted an EF but only in a PCGS holder. Came back crossed over at EF-45.
I HAVE seen coins that dealers have complained did not cross, PCGS is nuts, etc, and frankly, I wouldn't have crossed them over myself after I saw the coins in question.
Laura Sperber, knowledgeable co-owner of Legend Numismatics wrote here on this forum that the coin should grade technically, regardless of dark or unsightly toning...the grade is the grade. (I'm paraphrasing Laura). Laura may be right, but coins are market graded today..an ugly coin won't get the grade even if technically it does meet the grade. Is this a crock? The PCGS grade today generally defines the WORTH of the coin.
Yet appearance IS a large factor in the grade, at least with PCGS. The bulk of the coins in dealers' stock boxes are NGC examples, mostly with unsightly toning. One rarely sees any PCGS slabs in those boxes except for modern material. No dealer will deny that if he's truthful.
Ira Stein