I think we should try Frattlaw's idea on an informational website
stman
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I feel this is a good idea he brought up to try and inform collectors on AT and doctored coins. It's something we as collectors can do to try and help inform people of this problem. The experts are going to do their part and I see no reason why we can't do our part to try and help as well. I'm not sure what it takes or all of Frattlaw's ideas but I'm sure it will take some money to start off, maybe to buy some bad coins and such.
To try and kick this off, I will kick in $100.00 to help fund this project. It's not much and will take more to get this going.
Anybody else in? I'm sure there are other ways to get this going besides money, but this is all I can do, and wanted to put my money where my keystrokes were. Frattlaw let me know where to send the money and I will get a check out right away.
To try and kick this off, I will kick in $100.00 to help fund this project. It's not much and will take more to get this going.
Anybody else in? I'm sure there are other ways to get this going besides money, but this is all I can do, and wanted to put my money where my keystrokes were. Frattlaw let me know where to send the money and I will get a check out right away.
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I agree that education is a big part of fighting the coin doctors.
I have offered, and still do, to host this information on my new web site
I would love to have a section to educate collectors about AT coins and the dreaded coin doctors.
I am not knowledgeable enough about the subject, but if anyone who is would like to help develop the content I will post it for the benefit of all. Full credit will be given to the author(s) of course.
I am really going to try to make this a high traffic site for collectors interested in toned coins, and I think this would be a good place to have such information.
Once the site is officially launched I plan on moving it to a dedicated server to handle the traffic and some of the other things that I have planned. This will cost around $2500 - $3000 a year, most of that I will pay myself but I will also have a request for donations page for those who like the site and would like to help defray the cost of operation.
There could be pictures of known ATed coins, and show the diagnostics to help distinguish a real toned coin from an ATed coin.
I hope Laura doesn't come in and trample this thread this time.
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Okay, here's what we need;
1) Webmaster
2) "Experts" in toning -- self proclaimed is fine since PCGS/NGC/ANACS (maybe) will be determining whether toning is real, questionable or AT -- opinions will actually be explanations as to why or why not you feel coin is real/questionable/AT. Experience Required!
3) Photographer to snap pics of coins
4) Pics of slabbed toned coins that have been determined to be real by the 3rd parties, all different denominations eventually, but lets start with the obvious Ebay shake & bake coins (Morgans, Peace, Kennedys ect)
5) A little war chest for grading fees & costs -- maybe a $500-$1000 to start.
There are other things but I'll think of them later.
Any volunteers? Come'on, you'll get credit and be an asset to others in this community. You'll be worshiped by women, adored by men and idolized by small children and animals.
Do you think we could get Stephanie to be our assistant. Adrian can't be paying her that much, he spends all his money on coins.
Michael
Coins selling for up to ten times their value because they are toned, and by what means is unresting.
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Well, OK, I guess I could do some Java or C++ if you really want it.
I think an educational site is a great idea. And to avoid the "legalities" thing, we could simply AT some bulk coinage as examples. That way we could show what it looked like before, then turned into. Point out the markers while avoiding discussion of the technique. No one can argue that.
Then, we can do a simple test on these. We can submit them to each service and record the results. No company can sue facts. And these would be factual results. And I think, with enough body of evidence, it can become a great educational site and maybe used as factual data to use as evidence as needed.
Neil
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1) Webhosting/Webmaster -- JMoore (Jim)
2) Webmaster /Photography -- Coppercoins (Chuck)
3) Legalities -- FrattLaw (Michael)
4) Toning Opinions -- Coinguy1 (Mark) & gsaguy
5) Warchest/funding -- Stman
So we off to a decent beginning. I'm going to work on GSAGUY to help out as well.
Okay, anyone have AT or possible AT coins they would like us to submit for grading (PCGS/NGC, your choice). If it gets BBd we get to photograph the coin and use it for the site, of course the coin gets returned to you eventually, if you want it. If not, it'll become part of an AT Library which will be used as a reference guide. If it gets holder, we keep it,
We also need some pics of toned coins that you might have that are already slabbed by PCGS or NGC. We will also need a waiver to be able to use the coin images you send as examples as natural toning.
Credit for all coins will be noticed to their owners if you would like. However, no direct links will be given to websites offering coins for sale. Sorry, that would be advertising and it would be a conflict.
Overall my vision is to have a website that has several examples of AT coins for each denomination as well as examples of natural toning for each, with the most common denominations first. Sorry at first there will be page devoted to toned bust half cents.
Any opinions as to which coins should be used immediately -- other than Morgans, I kinda figured that one out on my own.
For those of you concerned with legalities of submitting coins or allowing us to use your pics, we'll provide a hold harmless waiver, if you wish.
However, we still need more toning experts! And DOANTIONS this will be a non-profit site with a mission statement to educate the community. We're not looking to make money.
If you happen to still have your 4 free grading offer from PCGS or 3 from NGC, I sure we can use those as well, instead of cash. Again, if it gets BBed, we get to use it. If it gets slabbed you get a colorful coin in a respectable holder.
Michael
And I really like FrattLaw's idea of selling a 'key' for $1.00 to those with an interest in learning about AT and otherwise doctored coins. Just use a keyword or two in the title and I'm sure that many ebay buyers would subscribe.
I'll back up my commitment with funding, my time, and plenty of photos from my extensive collection of toned Morgan dollars.
FrattLaw, I'm anxious to meet you at LB.
GSAGUY
Thanks,
~Wilson
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The AT coins need to be ng by a service proving they really are bad, not just pictures of eBay coins that we opinion as bad. I think Travers has some pictures of bad coins in his book, maybe somebody needs to contact him to borrow some pictures.
PCGS has pictures too but I doubt that want to get involved.
I've been quitely doing research on eBay sellers and coins the last year or so and have a great number of coins that I feel are bad, several dozen toned Peace & Morgans and other denominations. I feel a PCGS & NGC submission coming on.
I have a Registry Set of weird toned Morgans, maybe I can provide some examples of....something weird I guess.
I'm unemployed right now so I can't help much @ the present time with any $$ because I got to put beans on the table. That will change soon though. This is always the slow time in the construction biz, which is what I do.
Pics will only be used of coins that have actually been submitted and BBed by PCGS or NGC. Their professional opinions will be final as to the authenticity of the toning, however, those that volunteer to give opinions on toning will be commenting on why, in their opinion, PCGS/NGC BBed the coin. We will not BB coins ourself.
The site will also point out telltale signs of artifical toning and what to look for. Pics of slabbed toned coins will be presented for comparison purposes.
A Library with photographic references will also be established as a comparison model as well.
In order to fund the operation of the site and associated grading costs, access to the site will be auctioned off on Ebay with a BIN @ $1. Passwords granting access will remain valid for a proscribed time period. Auctions will be listed on Ebay, with key words to attract the attention of users searching for toned coins.
Michael
There are lots of ways, other than financially, in which people can help if they want to:
Those who get coins back in body bags (surely there are a few among us
Since I am new to computers and photography, I can only match STman's contribution of $100, and encourage anybody else to contribute in any way they can. I imagine the top "dog" coin doctors started out in their "careers" by performing this fairly easy coin doctoring, so if this helps eliminate future expert coin doctors, then we will all benefit. Good luck with this project, Frattlaw.
Mike, PM me, as to where to send a check. Thanks,,,,,,,,,,,Zerbe
If my acounting is correct, we now have donations as follows
gsaguy -- $500
Stman -- $100
coinguy -- $100
myself -- $100
Zerbe -- $100
I am setting up the bank acct today. If you're going to LB, hold the check and you can give it to me in person. If not PM me and I'll give you the address to send it.
Not bad, now we need coins.
Michael
Found on the ANA Website
Hoot
Sorry if it sounds like I am trying to rain on your parade. In theory the idea sounds great but I just don't think it's practical.
Conder101 asks: What happens to AT coins sent to the services that DON'T get BB's?
If it gets holdered then you get it back and slabbed for free.
Or what about slabbed toned coins that the house experts feel are actually AT?
If it gets holdered then you get it back and slabbed for free.
Or coins we know are naturally toned that DO get BB's.
Known natural toned coins will not be submitted
What happens when we have an example of a BB'd coin and an almost identical piece in a slab as genuine?
Examples that confuse the objective will not be used
Michael
I bring them up for several reasons....I've got a ton of them, we know they've not been tampered with, and they display some amazing patterns and colors.
Again, just thinking out loud.
GSAGUY