What do you think about someone coming up with a service to artificially tone coins correctly?
ANACONDA
Posts: 4,692 ✭
First of all, I'm not doing it nor am i suggesting someone else do it, i just want your opinion and i wanted essentially to start (continue?) a
thread on this.
It seems that what a lot of people are really concerned about is toning that continues after the coin gets into the
holder and coins looking like they are artificially toned. Ya know, "What a shame, that's a really rare coin
that's been ruined by an ametuerish attempt at artificial toning."
Some coins that have been harshly cleaned would probably be better off with a layer of toning that has been applied by
someone who knows what they're doing so the coin will be protected and so it will be more aesthetically pleasing.
Furthermore, say for example you've just inherited a collection of coins, each one of which has been harshly cleaned. Wouldn't it be nice to
have a service that could make the coins more acceptable? I realize that abuses would occur but it would seem that bringing the
dark world of artificial toning from the underground to the light, so to speak, would have benefits that would outweigh the negatives.
Essentially it could be a repair service. We repair everything else, why not coins. Maybe you guys could figure out a way to make this
happen in a palatable way. Like the service putting a identification of some sort on to the coin in micro writing or a die that only shows up with a black light.
Guys like me who can't afford an 1804 dollar might, though, be able to buy one that has been repaired.
thread on this.
It seems that what a lot of people are really concerned about is toning that continues after the coin gets into the
holder and coins looking like they are artificially toned. Ya know, "What a shame, that's a really rare coin
that's been ruined by an ametuerish attempt at artificial toning."
Some coins that have been harshly cleaned would probably be better off with a layer of toning that has been applied by
someone who knows what they're doing so the coin will be protected and so it will be more aesthetically pleasing.
Furthermore, say for example you've just inherited a collection of coins, each one of which has been harshly cleaned. Wouldn't it be nice to
have a service that could make the coins more acceptable? I realize that abuses would occur but it would seem that bringing the
dark world of artificial toning from the underground to the light, so to speak, would have benefits that would outweigh the negatives.
Essentially it could be a repair service. We repair everything else, why not coins. Maybe you guys could figure out a way to make this
happen in a palatable way. Like the service putting a identification of some sort on to the coin in micro writing or a die that only shows up with a black light.
Guys like me who can't afford an 1804 dollar might, though, be able to buy one that has been repaired.
0
Comments
Collectors are so fickle they can’t decide if they want white coins or toned coins. Each time you color the surface of a coin, metal is oxidized. Each time you make it white again the oxidized metal is removed. After a couple cycles of this, the mint surface is gone.
I believe in the classic collectors adage that we are the curators for coins that will be enjoyed by future generations. We will be doing future collects a great disservice if we ruin countless numbers of coins because of our obsessions with surface color.
My thoughts are these - first of all, coins that are not totally ruined can still be salvaged by NCS or some such service. Coins which have been ruined via harsh cleaning, retooling or what have you, are no longer collectible to most folks, and as such, should remain that way. I would hate to see a "restored" coin via toning or what have you re-enter the market as a genuine collectible. We've lived with the coin sins of the past up to this point, I think we can make it just fine by doing the things we're doing today.
Frank
K S
I liken this to the plastic surgery craze. Eveything has to meet a preconceived idea instead of accepting the inherent beauty. How shallow.
Joe.
K S
<< <i>I liken this to the plastic surgery craze. >>
I see many similarities as well. Especially the breast implant debacle, where the consumer was the idiot, then the doctors were the idiots, then the manufacturers were left with quite a bit of the responsibility. Intense awareness caused the industry to change, from the top down, so to speak.
Some collectors do not mind that a coin has been Artificially toned but unfortunately they are doing the hobby a disservice by cointinuing to support what these people are doing.
I think the problem will get worse before it gets better so I'm not in favor of a service should be created to artificially tone coins.
Just My Opinion.
Dave
As for Adrian's question, I've got problems with the concept. Heck, I'm still trying to figure out if NGC's conservation service is pushing the envelope.
GSAGUY
Sorry about the unintended humor. It just popped out.
Actually, I think that's a distinct possibility. I presume the reason conservation is accepted is so otherwise unappealing coins can once again be appreciated, for their historical significance, sheer beauty, or whatever motivates your particular collecting habits. If artificial toning can restore a badly hairlined coin to a pleasing state, the end result (and I suppose intent) is the same. Doesn't seem like any great leap going from TPG sanctioned dipping to viewing AT as just another conservation technique, IMHO. The only thing I take issue with is the hype and ridiculous premiums; I can make them myself a lot cheaper
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
K S
Not dipped, not colored, just their Original skins.
Then the dipped white and multi colored coins would not be in demand. Givce me an original untouched, non doctored coin anyday.
I appreciate coins more now than when I first started collecting. Original coins are what I look for now. Of course I have about 3 dozen DCAM Proofs already, but my next coins will be worth more to me personally if they are original.
Even if a PR Morgan is dark brown, there will always be someone to buy it, and appreciate it. How many classic coins are left that qualify for "ORIGINAL". Maybe enen yet another sticker for the future slabs>>>>{coin is original }. This would be in the minority at the rate coin doctors are popping up all over, and the benefit would be a premium for a truely unplayed with rarity. ZERBE
Remember aswimmer & his badly ATed Morgans? He really caught heck over them! Poor Alan! A badly ATed $50 Morgan is a bad bad thing. Especially if sold as "original."
Remember the properly ATed Peace that stman posted that fooled NGC? Board members were offering to buy it from the thread and they were making comments like as long as it's pretty so what if it's AT, nobody has any right telling anybody else what they should buy or collect.
That proves that a properly ATed coin is a highly desirable & valuable thing and can be called "original" without fear of the board "lynch mob."
As a bonus each user of this service also receives a free pair of rose colored glass to wear while looking at his new "monster."
Please excuse me Gentlemen,
I'm confused. Aren't the best coin doctors, the few that are real artists, already performing this service? And what about the market, if too many got into the toned market wouldn't it just become another commodity exchange. All those expensive "naturally" toned coins would be worth, well about as much of a premium as an Intel Pentium II? Sorry, didn't mean to cause a stir.
This service will be exclusively for us little guys and our $100 coins because nobody will tell us how to contact the big boys.
<< <i>This service will be exclusively for us little guys and our $100 coins because nobody will tell us how to contact the big boys >>
Thank you for clarifying the issue for me Mr. Dog97,
You make an excellent point, Sir. I forgot that membeship in those exclusive clubs has its privileges. Can us "little girls" also join this new service?
Sir, I think you are a wise old canine.
<< <i>To be politically correct, you have to call it "market acceptable toning", not artificial, and even when rejecting a coin, you should do so for "questionable toning", again, not necessarily artificial. >>
Dear Mr. Crito,
Thank you also for the continued enlightenment. Us little girls sometimes forget to be politically correct and we must be reminded, I suppose. I'm really becoming quite afraid of the nasty "dealer coin police". Do they have concentration camps yet? What's a little girl with a few toned 20 cent pieces to do? If the one Uncle Earl gave me for my 14th birthday should someday be declared "unnatural", will I face a fine, imprisonment, or some ghastly, unspeakable fate? Please, its just a pretty 20 cent piece from my uncle - I don't think he was a coin doctor, although sometimes he did like the liquor.
<< <i>you have to call it "market acceptable toning", not artificial >>
THANK-YOU, finally someone else has a voice of reason!
<< <i>The real danger of the "dealer police group" is that insiders will manipulate the market, by unjustly killing off the competition, while getting their own AT coins stamped with a seal of approval. That would only keep prices inflated, and is probably the real motivation behind it IMHO. >>
nah, that couldn't be it. all the big-time dealers who have mad such huge profits over the years are doing it for US, the little collectors! legend said so! (she really did - go back & check).
K S
I want a slabbed coin from PCGS or NGC to say I'M ORIGINAL, NO IF, ANDS OR BUTS ABOUT IT!!"
I don't want "market grading!" I want a 65 to be a 65!
This is not 1984, It is not a bright cold day in April, and the clocks are not striking thirteen. To hell with Newspeak, Doublethink and PC.
Adrian,
You can repair a car and it will run again -- you can repair a watch and it will tick again -- you can repair a roof and it will keep out the rain again. However, you can't repair a harshly cleaned coin by means of artificial toning so that it will be magically transformed to its pre-damaged state. Yes, you can cover it up and successfully deceive many thereby rendering a "ruined" coin saleable -- but candy coat it as you will and it's still fraud! How about artificially frosting the devices on proof coinage to obtain a CAM or DCAM designation? What about chemically treating proof gold to cover hairlines? Would you condone these practices as well? Quite frankly I'm astonished (and very disappointed) that you would even suggest such a deceptive practice on this message board. I sincerely hope that you rethink the content of this thread.
Sincerely,
XXXX
My response:
I was afraid somebody would think poorly of my posting of the thread. The deal is though, as i see it, a harshly cleaned coin looks really bad...initially. It will always look bad but as the years go by, it looks less bad. Therein lies my point. You can't decieve a knowledgeable person by toning a cleaned coin but you can make the coin look better. My desire wasn't to encourage someone to start a artificial toning service but to start a dialogue on that point. And, interestingly enough, i said exactly that in my initial post.
adrian
Here's a quote from my initial thred, which is unedited (just in case anyone else missed it):
"First of all, I'm not doing it nor am i suggesting someone else do it, i just want your opinion and i wanted essentially to start (continue?) a thread on this."
adrian
DAN
My first tassa slap 3/3/04
My shiny cents
<< <i>You can't decieve a knowledgeable person by toning a cleaned coin ... >>
Agreed, but it is very easy to deceive a less knowledgable person by doing so. That's the problem.
I see many threads on this forum decrying coins in third tier service slabs that claim to be DCAM but aren't, MS-69's that aren't etc. These items would not deceive a knowledgable person either. But we get upset over them for the damage they do to the hobby because some people use them to "cheat" the unknowledgable. An AT service that restores some of the desirable appearance to a harshly cleaned or damaged coin will be used the same way.
<< <i>You can't decieve a knowledgeable person by toning a cleaned coin ... >>
i don't agree at all. for example, a dipped coin that is put back in a paper roll & allowed to retone would easily full an expert.
<< <i>we get upset over ... the damage they do to the hobby ... that restores some of the desirable appearance to a harshly cleaned or damaged coin will be used the same way. >>
coin-doctoring has 100% legitimate uses, but as you said, there are some who could turn bible-study to devious ends.
K S