New Set Registry Varieties Policy

BJ · February 5, 2003 1:41AM

Here's how we will be handling varieties for Set Registry purposes.

1. In most series where there are varieties recognized by PCGS, we will have two possible sets, a "Basic Set" that does not include varieties, and a "With Varieties Set" that does include varieties.

2. The "With Varieties Set" will include every variety recognized by PCGS that has a total PCGS Population in all grades of at least 5 coins.

3. PCGS will review all varieties currently recognized. We will start recognizing considerably more varieties. There is also a chance that we will stop recognizing a few very marginal varieties.

4. A few of the "Basic Sets" will actually include a few traditional varieties. For example, the Basic Lincoln cent set will include the 1909-S VDB and 1909 VDB and the Morgan dollar set will include both the 1878-7TF and 1878-8TF.

5. If you want to have a new variety recognized by PCGS, make the suggestion to us. If we agree it is a significant variety, we will poll the top Registry set holders for that series and if the majority of them want the new variety recognized, we'll do it.

Over the next 30 to 60 days we will be reviewing all the currently listed "With Varieties" sets and adding the appropriate coins with appropriate weights. As always, we welcome and appreciate any of your comments and suggestions.

BJ & David

wayneherndon · February 5, 2003 1:48AM

David and BJ,

Nice move. Please take a look at the 1982 Lincoln and the 1972 Ike varieties.

Thanks,

WH

BNE · February 5, 2003 2:00AM

Thanks, BJ. This makes a lot of sense, from both the collector's (and PCGS's) perspective.

Now, we just gotta get you guys to RECOGNIZE more varieties.

Thanks!

CarlWohlforth · February 5, 2003 2:05AM

Yeay!!!

BNE: let's wait a little, OK? I think we should concentrate on one thing at a time

OK, I have my proof reverse of Jeffersons ready and waiting!

BJ · February 5, 2003 2:09AM

The proof Jeffs are up first! I already emailed Frank Corso about this.

Typetone · February 5, 2003 2:22AM

BJ:

Sounds good. Please add the three 72P IKE varieties.

Cheers

Greg

dbldie55 · February 5, 2003 2:25AM

How about the two 1901 Liberty Nickel types as well as the Doubled Die coins. Otherwise I guess they go to NGC.

BJ · February 5, 2003 2:34AM

You all know that I am not a numismatist, so don't confuse me any more than I already am!!! Please email me DIRECTLY with specific information on varieties that PCGS currently does NOT recognize and I'll get that information to the proper person.

No need to tell me about the varieties already being graded. If there are more than 5 in the pop, then those varieties will be added to the varieties sets. On that matter I am clear!

Thanks.

RELLA · February 5, 2003 2:44AM

Wayne,

If you're going to work the Lincoln varieties don't forget about the 1998-200 proof reverse types.

RELLA

gmarguli · February 5, 2003 2:48AM

5. If you want to have a new variety recognized by PCGS, make the suggestion to us. If we agree it is a significant variety, we will poll the top Registry set holders for that series and if the majority of them want the new variety recognized, we'll do it.

Maybe I am not understanding what you wrote correctly.

If there is a currently unrecognized variety that someone wants recognized, then we suggest it to you (PCGS). If you think it is a significant variety, then you will ask the top registry set owners if they want it recognized?

So if I am understanding correctly, you are giving the option of PCGS recognizing a new variety to registry set holders rather than the general numismatic community?

Perhaps I should ask, "Why should I care what the top registry set holders think about a variety?". Are they now the experts on these coins? Many of them wrote checks to dealers to put together these sets and wouldn't know a variety if it bit them..

Again, maybe I am misunderstanding?

EVillageProwler · February 5, 2003 3:01AM

Also, the top registry holders *might* be protectionist about their standing. Not having that new variety may jeopardize their place in the standings... There is much reason for them to be influenced...

EVP

DAM · February 5, 2003 3:02AM

Have to agree with Greg on this. At least in part.

What matters what "top Registry set holders" think? They may have a vested interest to say no, if they don't have the variety and adding it would knock them down a notch.

DAM · February 5, 2003 3:03AM

EVP, you hit your Enter Key before me.

BJ · February 5, 2003 5:08AM

Yes, registry set holders might be biased but at the same time many of the set registrants are experts within their field of interest. The registry members are very important to us and we do care what they think. We will continue to solicit their opinions.

gmarguli, what sets do you have registered in the PCGS Set Registry?

kieferscoins · February 5, 2003 5:09AM

He won't tell anyone BJ.

Cameron Kiefer

goose3 · February 5, 2003 5:18AM

Cool! Flying Eagle varieties!????

cosmicdebris · February 5, 2003 5:33AM

Rella I second the 1998 to 2000 type reverses for Lincons.

Hey BJ where's the Only made for mint set registry?

BNE · February 5, 2003 5:34AM

I don't disagree with BJ's approach. At least in the proof Jefferson nickels, I am sure set registry participants would be able to come up with four or five major varieties that ought to be recognized (mostly multiple dies), without allowing our own interests to get involved. If PCGS hasn't slabbed any yet, none of us have pre-slabbed coins waiting in the wings, and we don't know for sure how our coins will "go" when they are crossed over (if we have any).

If there were controversy in a series, at least this would something legitimate to argue about. It might be fun to debate which varieties are important, for a change, instead of which board member or dealer is a jerk.

gmarguli · February 5, 2003 5:38AM

gmarguli, what sets do you have registered in the PCGS Set Registry?

Competitive sets...um... none. Dormant, a few that came and went. However, I have considered registering my set over at NGC since they allow both PCGS and NGC coins into their registry. Just a thought.

I don't actively play the PCGS registry set game for two main reasons:

1) Many of my coins are NGC. Probably 60%. I'd sooner have a lobotomy before spending money to crossover the coins only to get heartache when they don't cross - yet are solid or PQ for the grade.

And no, I wouldn't pay for a PCGS sticker to play the game. Not even 1¢

2) Because I collect based on colorful toning and the grade is rather unimportant to me. No use me spending 10X bid on a coin for the color only to get the same points as someone who bought the same grade coin at Bluesheet because it's a dog. No use me spending $1500 on an MS66 that everyone would drool over because of the toning while someone else spends $500 on a bland MS67 and gets more points because it is the "better" coin.

I know I'm in the minority on this forum, but then again, I don't need the ego boost of thinking I'm #1...

gmarguli · February 5, 2003 5:39AM

If PCGS hasn't slabbed any yet, none of us have pre-slabbed coins waiting in the wings, and we don't know for sure how our coins will "go" when they are crossed over (if we have any).

Or you have them slabbed by PCGS, yet just not recognized with the variety.

BNE · February 5, 2003 5:47AM

That's true, Greg. (Although I don't.)

BJ · February 5, 2003 6:24AM

Well, gmarguli, I have to say that I find it very curious indeed that you are so quick to criticize just about everything we do with regards to the PCGS Set Registry, when in fact you "don't actively play the PCGS registry set game."

I have a great deal of respect for the hundreds of collectors who do "play the game" because of the quality of feedback they give me. It's awesome how smart and knowledgeable these people are. It is the posts from these people who are meaningful to me and influence the decisions we make with regards to the set registry.

I posted the poll and information about the varieties issue here in the PCGS Set Registry forum for obvious reasons. I did not post in the US Coin Forum. Frankly, I don't pay much attention to the opinion of the person who tells me not to buy a Lincoln because it's a bad ride, when in fact he's never even driven a Lincoln. It's the Lincoln owners whose opinions I respect.

gmarguli, you can certainly continue to criticize everything PCGS does. This is an open forum. Have at it. In fact, your criticisms contribute much to some of the spirited debates on this board. But I now have a much better understanding of your motives. Thanks for the eye-opener.

EagleEye · February 5, 2003 6:39AM

Hi BJ.

I'm a bit confused as to what is the defining factor of a variety. Is it any coin with a qualifier in the variety column in the pop report? If so then what about the 1858 Flying Eagles, does only 1 qualify? or will you list the Large Letter and Small letter in the regular set? the 1858/7 is not listed as a variety, so I guess that is a safer bet to remain in the basic set.

The 1864 Cents are subject to this problem as well. 1864 CN, 1864 bronze, 1864 L on Rib are listed as varieties. 1860 Pt. Bust is listed with a variety qualifier where the 1867/67 is not.

Rick Snow

tradedollarnut · February 5, 2003 6:43AM

BJ - some varieties have been traditionally collected as part of the main series. Are you going to check with the participants regarding which varieties to keep in the main set?

In my series, the coin that comes to mind is the 1875-S/CC. The top three current sets all have it (also most of the all time finest had it) and it's in the Redbook as part of the series. Others that come to mind are the 22-P and 55/55 Lincolns, the 37-D three leg buffalo, etc. Famous varieties that have taken on the tradition of being part of the main set. How will you handle the decision process?

BJ · February 5, 2003 6:55AM

Eagle Eye and Tradedollar Nut,

There will be some coins that are in reality, varieties, but will remain in the basic sets. Some of the overdate coins which have traditionally been considered part of a basic set will remain in the basic set.

Tradition will play a big role in where a coin falls. We'll poll registrants of the sets involved, David Hall will get opinions of various respected numismatists, and a decision will be made.

Ya'll know that we won't be able to please everyone all the time. We will, however, try our best to please as many people as we can.

tradedollarnut · February 5, 2003 6:57AM

Good process - thanks!

homerunhall · February 5, 2003 7:00AM

Hello Everyone...the over-ridding guide to everything we do will be common sense. We will not follow rules blindly. If something makes sense to us all, that's how we'll do it. Thanks to everyone for their support and comments...David

Spooly · February 5, 2003 7:04AM

Did BJ just checkmate Greg? !!!!

Go BJ!

bigt · February 5, 2003 7:23AM

I second that " GO BJ "

Tim Allen

gmarguli · February 5, 2003 7:37AM

Well, gmarguli, I have to say that I find it very curious indeed that you are so quick to criticize just about everything we do with regards to the PCGS Set Registry, when in fact you "don’t actively play the PCGS registry set game."

Perhaps I don't play the registry because there are so many things to criticize about it?

Actually BJ, I am not "quick to criticize just about everything we do with regards to the PCGS Set Registry". In its most basic form, it has its positives. However, I am not blind to the motives behind many of the things that are done "in the name of the collector". The registry is a marketing tool and revenue generator for PCGS and nothing more. That is FINE and it was a great idea, but to have some people talk like it is this great savior for the common collector and it's participants are the most knowledgeable and important people in numismatics is a little...um...how should I put it... vomit inducing.

Would you like my opinions more if I registered a set? Honestly, would it make a difference? What if I were to tell you that I have a #1 set currently registered here? Would that change your opinion of my opinions? What if I had two or three #1 registered sets here. Would my opinion really be that much more valid to you? After all, it's the same person giving the same opinion. I'm sorry to say it, but it sounds like you are a little biased when it comes to peoples opinions. Registry set collectors = good. Non-registry set collectors = bad.

Honestly, I do not need to play the registry game in order to have an objective opinion. Does a baseball umpire not have a valid opinion of a game just because he isn’t one of the players? Perhaps the players have the more objective opinion? Isn’t this what you are suggesting.

I have a great deal of respect for the hundreds of collectors who do "play the game" because of the quality of feedback they give me. It’s awesome how smart and knowledgeable these people are. It is the posts from these people who are meaningful to me and influence the decisions we make with regards to the set registry.

Of those hundreds of people who gave you quality feedback, objectively how many of those feedbacks were made without any bias? It's only human nature to try and get ahead. I don't doubt many of them are extremely knowledgeable. I've known some of them since before the registry existed. I have a lot of respect for many of them. However, that doesn't mean that what they think are meaningful varieties are actually meaningful varieties.

Do you really believe that the opinions of this small group of collectors is more valid than that of the entire numismatic community? If so, that is a rather blind view. The number of varieties PCGS currently recognizes is extremely tiny. I'm sure it is in the best interest of those near the top of the charts to limit the new varieties added unless it suits them. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe these people who spend large amounts of money will enjoy going after a few added coins?

I posted the poll and information about the varieties issue here in the PCGS Set Registry forum for obvious reasons. I did not post in the US Coin Forum.

Please explain those "obvious reasons". Do you believe that the FEW people who participate in this forum are better judges of what constitutes a variety that should be recognized than those collectors on the US Coin Forum? Do you believe that just because these people have decided to register a set here, that they are so much more knowledgeable of what constitutes a variety that should be recognized?

Frankly, I don’t pay much attention to the opinion of the person who tells me not to buy a Lincoln because it’s a bad ride, when in fact he’s never even driven a Lincoln. It’s the Lincoln owners whose opinions I respect.

Maybe not, but in this case you are basically asking the Top 5 Lincoln dealers in the country how they can be assured of remaining the Top 5 because their opinions carry so much weight with you. They would never think of doing something as questionable as giving answers that would promote their position. Nahhh....

Perhaps you should ask those non-Lincoln owners why they don’t own Lincolns.

gmarguli, you can certainly continue to criticize everything PCGS does. This is an open forum. Have at it. In fact, your criticisms contribute much to some of the spirited debates on this board. But I now have a much better understanding of your motives. Thanks for the eye-opener.

I am glad about this. I do not post words just to criticize. I post in order to get collectors to think. I know that isn’t the PCGS way, but it is my way.

NIckelCollector · February 5, 2003 8:13AM

BJ:

This is a great improvement! Thanks for making it happen. I will submit a "few" suggestions for the Jefferson series.

Frank

leothelyon · February 5, 2003 5:30PM

Here are a few;
1938 DDO
1938 QDO
1939 DDR
1939 QDO
1939 Proof Reverse of 1940
1940 Proof Reverse of 1938
1942 DDO
1942-D/horizontal D
1943/2-P
1943-P DDO Double eye
1945-P DDR
1946-D/inverted D
1946-S DDO
1949-D/S
1951 PF DDO
1954-S/D
1954-D/S
1955-D/S
1955 Proof TDR
1960 Proof TDR
1971 no S Proof

Source CHERRYPICKERS' GUIDE to rare die varieties by BILL FIVAS, NLG & JT STANTON, NLG, 3rd edition.

There are many great books by the real experts who have already done the extensive research, writing and photographing the varieties for many series. Then there are those great people who discovered these coins.

Leo

rwhite · February 6, 2003 4:53AM

BJ, I'm still not sure why there has to be 5 coins graded of a certain variety for it to be included in the registry. If PCGS recognizes a variety, it should be included and required in the "With Varieties" set. The title of the set is not "With (some, but not all) Varieties". I think if PCGS designates it, it should be required. Thanks for your consideration.

Lakesammman · February 6, 2003 7:37AM

BJ - Stick with Mercedes.

Dave - thanks for listening at the FUN/PCGS reception - agree with the concept 100%.

New Set Registry Varieties Policy

Comments

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection